beaucham@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (10/12/90)
The optical disk medium price has gone from something like $75 retail to $149 retail. Does anyone know why? We have a few left on campus selling for the old discount price of $57. But a question some people are asking is -- are the old ones compatible with the optical drive on the new system? I certainly haven't heard that they aren't, and it doesn't seem reasonable that they would change the format, but it would be nice to hear from some authoritive source that they are, in fact, totally compatible. Jim Beauchamp j-beauchamp@uiuc.edu
beaucham@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (10/13/90)
Since I see no response to the question about the 100% price increase on the optical disk media, I thought I would post the two meaningful responses which I received: The most probable reason that the price increased was that Canon has been selling the OD media to NeXT at below production cost. (This is what you folks call "dumping" when you're in a bad mood, "being nice" when you're in a good mood). My assumption is that Canon couldn't bear subsidizing the OD indefinitely, especially in lieu of the fact that NeXT is now producing machines without an OD, something they said they wouldn't do. ************************ The optical disks are indeed the same. What is different is that Canon is no longer aggressively pushing the technology. The price before was designed to get people using the format and push the production up high enough so that they could make a profit. I believe that you'd still see an OD in the new cubes if Canon had found a larger market. (The folks at NeXT didn't exactly say so, but they seem to think this is Canon's fault.)
SLVQC@CUNYVM (Salvatore Saieva) (10/13/90)
In article <72100013@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu>, beaucham@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu says: > >Since I see no response to the question about the 100% price increase >on the optical disk media, I thought I would post the two meaningful >responses which I received: > > [...stuff deleted...] I asked a NeXT rep about the increase just last week. I was told that NeXT was selling the OD's for much less than what they paid for them, and could not afford to offer those discounts anymore. Given the mood of this discussion (ie: people seem to feel that the OD technology is going nowhere) you can take this as you may. It does seem funny that NeXT drops the optical drive for a 3.5" and then triples the price on OD's. I have an OD cube so I've been trying to locate prices from supply vendors. I've looked throught the Global catalog, they stock the 512M density OD's and charge about $200 in quanity of 1-4. They didn't seem to stock the 256M density OD's and I would tend to guess that there is a difference between the two. And, if there were a difference, I would also tend to guess that the 256M OD's are cheaper. I wouldn't want to guess at how much cheaper they would be. BTW, does anyone know if there is indeed a difference between the two densities? Will my Cube choke on a 512M OD? Boy, am I glad now that I ordered 10 OD's from NeXT back in May! Sal. ------- Salvatore Saieva Internet: slvqc@cunyvm.cuny.edu Queens College, Academic Computer Center BITNET: slvqc@cunyvm.bitnet 65-30 Kissena Blvd, Flushing, N.Y. 11367 DeskNet: (718) 520-7662
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (10/15/90)
In article <72100012@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu> beaucham@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >The optical disk medium price has gone from something like $75 retail to >$149 retail. Does anyone know why? My understanding is that the former $50 price for optical media was a subsidized price, in the hope that the massive popularity of this technology would cause massive production that would allow much lower prices. This massive popularity failed to materialize, and since NeXT has caved in to the repeated demands for more standard disk technology, they are no longer willing to subsidize the price of optical media. In other words, $150/disc is the fair, unsubsidized price for optical media. It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that this technology is on the way out. _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" _|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?" |_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin." --|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Gaijin ja nai. /|\ | |/\| _______ / \ MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU Omae ha gaijin darou" / | \ | |__| / \ / \"Iie, boku ha nihonjin." "Souka. Yappari gaijin!" Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (10/15/90)
>In other words, $150/disc is the fair, unsubsidized price for optical >media. >It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that this technology is on the >way out. Nothing could be father from the truth. Take a look at MacUser's November's 1990 issue. They review 20 OD drives. They also received 2 more but too late to review. On the horizon are 3.5 inch OD drives, and new 'phase change technology' that can write 33% faster than the current magneto-optical technology. New multi-function drives, faster spinning drives, etc. are all in the works. All the drives comply to an ISO standard, that Sony backs up, so there is a bit of weight behind it. All of the drives support 512byte sectors, and some even support faster 1024byte sectors. The Storage Dimensions Macinstor has a proprietary format that puts 1gig on a disk. Using this format it can read 4.7megabits per second. Faster than a test 40meg drive Macuser had. It could write 1.7 megabits per second. Still not bad. A Sony based drive could do 2.0megabits per second. There is also a committee that is working on a multiplatform standard, that might see some progress by mid-91. Optical drives offer HUGE savings in terms of per meg. At low end storage, of less that 1 gig, they will still be beat by basic harddrives, and removable magnetic media hard drives can still beat them until about 2.25 meg. But after that, they can't be beat as for price. Especially at a typical $.33 per meg for a 600meg disk. Yeah, they are slow, but they continue to get faster, cheaper, and larger. They won't be able to compete against hard drives in speed, ever most likely. But they sure can as for price and volume of storage. And with the amounts of storage people need today, optical drives are the ONLY solution for a lot of needs. Optical drives are definitely here for a stay. It's too bad that NeXT jumped on it maybe the bandwagon bit too soon. BTW, does anybody know if NeXT OD's conform to the ISO standard? -k
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (10/15/90)
In article <5774@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: >>[I wrote:] >>It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that this technology is on the >>way out. >Nothing could be father from the truth. > [stuff about new and ISO standard OD's] How does your first statement apply to the latter? NeXT's optical disc is unique to NeXT. Nobody else has adopted it. That technology -- the OD technology in use on the NeXT -- is on its way out. The future of optical media will be with technology that is standard and in use on multiple platforms. _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" _|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?" |_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin." --|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Gaijin ja nai. /|\ | |/\| _______ / \ MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU Omae ha gaijin darou" / | \ | |__| / \ / \"Iie, boku ha nihonjin." "Souka. Yappari gaijin!" Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (10/15/90)
In <9213@milton.u.washington.edu> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: >In article <5774@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: >>>[I wrote:] >>>It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that this technology is on the >>>way out. >>Nothing could be father from the truth. >> [stuff about new and ISO standard OD's] >How does your first statement apply to the latter? >NeXT's optical disc is unique to NeXT. Nobody else has adopted it. >That technology -- the OD technology in use on the NeXT -- is on its >way out. The future of optical media will be with technology that is >standard and in use on multiple platforms. Unique? What is unique? The format it uses or the magneto-optical business? When you say 'technology' do you mean the format that the OD drive rights in, which is not technology, but an application, or the magneto-optical business which is and which is NOT on the way out, but is just getting up to steam. That's what I contend with. As far as wether the Canon drive for the NeXT is on it's way out, I reserve opinion on that. -k
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (10/16/90)
As a (perhaps) interesting side note to this OD discussion, last
week's issue of Business Week magazine (sort of a Time or Newsweek
targeted at corporate types) has a big, glossy ad on the back cover
from CANON advertising wht appears to be this very same OD. So, perhaps
Canon will try to get some market share of their own, and then the price
will creep back down.
leeedwardj@microsoft.UUCP (Edward JUNG) (10/18/90)
In article <5774@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: > >Yeah, they are slow, but they continue to get faster, cheaper, and >larger. They won't be able to compete against hard drives in speed, >ever most likely. But they sure can as for price and volume of >storage. And with the amounts of storage people need today, optical >drives are the ONLY solution for a lot of needs. Even this is not case in stone. Today's OD drives have large head assemblies that have both emitter/detector and some electronics on a large, heavy head assembly. This is similar to the construction of very early disk hardware. The high mass of the head results in a high-profile drive (eg usually full-height for 5.25" drives), somewhat noisy operation as the head assembly shuttles back and forth, and relatively slower seek times. In theory, flat and light optical elements can be constructed that mount the electronics off the head and conduct light to the detector and emitter through channels or fibers. Alternatively, thin film techniques can product "flat" detectors and emitters. Some of this technology already exists (and today's hard disks use it). The use of such low mass heads would significantly increase the average access time. Since OD have dense data, the data rate will always be high. The primary defects of OD today are: 1. writes require a phase change and therefore are slower 2. single platter may increase time to seek over all data 3. media is relatively sophisticated when compared to floppy disks, which usually deal with a single active coating But as a read media, the media size, seek speed, storage capacity, and transfer speed can all be made more palatable. BTW, this is not a response to the "OD are on their way out" message. I think the thrust of that message was made clear regarding the use of an open standard. >BTW, does anybody know if NeXT OD's conform to the ISO standard? No, they do not conform to the ISO media standard. I'm pretty certain that they conform to the ISO form-factor standard, though, so jukebox media changers would work. Edward