dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio) (10/20/90)
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: > I think NeXT should build X into NeXTStep the same way X is built into > NeWS. It wouldn't hurt anything, and it would broaden their appeal > somewhat. It wouldn't hurt anything? I disagree. X11 is an abomination. It's a huge, clunky piece of software that lets people hang themselves. I refuse to run X11 except for the purpose of things like game-playing, and even then it's not frequent. I'm waiting for X to die. If a company like NeXT puts X11 support into their product, the abomination will be able to survive that much longer. I wish people would abandon this foolishnes called X11. -- Doug DeJulio dd26@andrew.cmu.edu
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (10/22/90)
In article <Mb86rbq00VI8AbioJ7@andrew.cmu.edu> dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio) writes: >I wish people would abandon >this foolishnes called X11. And replace it with what, pray tell? The "foolishness" of X11 allows multi-platform graphics connectivity that NeXTstep does not allow. The "foolishness" of X11 has a much better VT100 terminal emulator than Terminal or Shell (I haven't compared it with the 2.0 one yet); it *correctly* emulates a VT100 and does so a lot faster. The "foolishness" of X11 allows the use of multi-national character sets which NeXTstep does not as yet do, *including* in 2.0. All we have from NeXT is promises. With "foolish" X11 using XNeXT, those of us who want to do Japanese JIS, Chinese GB, and Chinese BIG5 processing on a NeXT can do so *now*, without waiting for NeXT to deliver on promises which may never be fufilled. "Foolish" X11 allows us to use US-produced and maintained hardware to access the 25 Dynasties database at our East Asian Languages Library instead of having to buy Taiwanese PCs that explode if the monitor is turned on before the CPU is. Such "foolishness", to want to be able get your work done! If I were to wager on which was more likely to survive longer, X11 or NeXT, I would put my money on "foolish" X11. _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" _|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?" |_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin." --|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Gaijin ja nai. /|\ | |/\| _______ / \ MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU Omae ha gaijin darou" / | \ | |__| / \ / \"Iie, boku ha nihonjin." "Souka. Yappari gaijin!" Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.
tony@mcrsys.UUCP (Tony Becker) (10/22/90)
From article <Mb86rbq00VI8AbioJ7@andrew.cmu.edu>, by dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio): > barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: >> I think NeXT should build X into NeXTStep the same way X is built into >> NeWS. It wouldn't hurt anything, and it would broaden their appeal > will be able to survive that much longer. I wish people would abandon > this foolishnes called X11. > Doug DeJulio > dd26@andrew.cmu.edu Abandon X in favor of what? Tony.
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (10/22/90)
In article <Mb86rbq00VI8AbioJ7@andrew.cmu.edu> dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio) writes: >barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: >> I think NeXT should build X into NeXTStep the same way X is built into >> NeWS. It wouldn't hurt anything, and it would broaden their appeal >> somewhat. > >It wouldn't hurt anything? I disagree. X11 is an abomination. >I wish people would abandon this foolishnes called X11. There one thing that cannot be denied about X11---it is a defacto standard. As such, it is valuable. As long as all GUIs support X, we can have at least a degree of platform independence, and at least do some level of windowing across all platforms and networks. X11 is a common denominator (and free). That is its value. Yes, the world would be a better place if X11 could be replaced by NeXTStep---but it can't be, since it is proprietary. Actually, I hope someday NeXT gives a great gift to the computer industry and makes NeXTStep freely available to run on other platforms. This, of course, would be a radical thing to do---but NeXT is just the company that could do such a thing. (Lets carry out any future X11 wars elsewhere...sorry I brought it up.) -- Barry Merriman UCLA Dept. of Math UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
keithp@xavier.tamu.edu (Keith D Perkins) (10/22/90)
Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin writes: >The "foolishness" of X11 has a much better VT100 terminal emulator >than Terminal or Shell (I haven't compared it with the 2.0 one yet); >it *correctly* emulates a VT100 and does so a lot faster. Check out Terminal under 2.0. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. (Thanks Scott!) >The "foolishness" of X11 allows the use of multi-national character >sets which NeXTstep does not as yet do, *including* in 2.0. All we >have from NeXT is promises. With "foolish" X11 using XNeXT, those of >us who want to do Japanese JIS, Chinese GB, and Chinese BIG5 >processing on a NeXT can do so *now*, without waiting for NeXT to >deliver on promises which may never be fufilled. I belive that there are two Japanese NeXTStep versions out there. 2.0 also supports a fair number of European langauges. Check out Preferences under 2.0 to see the list. NeXT is working on getting more langauge support. Why have that neato power supply if you're not going to sell outside the U.S.? Keith Perkins Texas A&M University
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (10/22/90)
In article <Mb86rbq00VI8AbioJ7@andrew.cmu.edu> dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio) writes: >... I'm waiting for X to die... You're going to be waiting a very long time. It has far too much support from major companies to ever die. Pity. -- The type syntax for C is essentially | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology unparsable. --Rob Pike | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
korp@atlantis.ees.anl.gov (Peter Korp) (10/23/90)
In article <9657@milton.u.washington.edu> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: >In article <Mb86rbq00VI8AbioJ7@andrew.cmu.edu> dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio) writes: >>I wish people would abandon >>this foolishnes called X11. > >And replace it with what, pray tell? > NeXTstep or NeWS would be wonderful alternatives. >The "foolishness" of X11 allows multi-platform graphics connectivity >that NeXTstep does not allow. > Not entirely true. Yes NeXTstep only runs on NeXT and IBM machines but it is inherently network based and there is nothing, other than NeXT and IBM, preventing the port of NeXTstep to other platforms. [stuff deleted] >The "foolishness" of X11 allows the use of multi-national character >sets which NeXTstep does not as yet do, *including* in 2.0. All we >have from NeXT is promises. With "foolish" X11 using XNeXT, those of >us who want to do Japanese JIS, Chinese GB, and Chinese BIG5 >processing on a NeXT can do so *now*, without waiting for NeXT to >deliver on promises which may never be fufilled. > It seems that Toshiba was able to produce a SPARCportable offering this capability under NeWS. Its just a matter of time before the fonts become available in standard PostScript formats. >"Foolish" X11 allows us to use US-produced and maintained hardware to >access the 25 Dynasties database at our East Asian Languages Library >instead of having to buy Taiwanese PCs that explode if the monitor is >turned on before the CPU is. What exactly is your point? Both NeXT and Sun manufacture in the good old US of A. and are cost competetive with some of those high end Taiwanese PCs. >Such "foolishness", to want to be able get your work done! In my 2 years of working with all three systems I would wager that programmers are 2-20 times more productive in NeXTstep or NeWS than in X, and it doesn't matter which X toolkit you use. >If I were to wager on which was more likely to survive longer, X11 or >NeXT, I would put my money on "foolish" X11. I will agree, but it sure makes a sad statement for the supposed computer professionals out there if it does. X has served its purpose, now lets move on to more mature technology. Have you ever noticed how every new version of X looks more and more like NeWS or NeXTstep? Lets have hybrid systems to tide us over while we withdraw from X and then good riddance. [signature deleted] Peter ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Naturally my opinions are my own!
izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (10/23/90)
In article <9408@helios.TAMU.EDU> keithp@xavier.tamu.edu (Keith D Perkins) writes: > >I belive that there are two Japanese NeXTStep versions out there. >Keith Perkins >Texas A&M University Two Japanese NeXTStep versions of what? As far as I know, there aren't any Japanese NeXTStep anything out yet. Baran's Techletter states that the NeXT OS release 2.0 supports composite font extensions in DPS and at the WindowServer level, but not in the Appkit Text objects. This means that Kanji text may be displayed if you directly interact with the WindowServer if you buy Kanji PostScript fonts. But you cannot use any of the NeXTStep applications to display Kanji, let alone enter Kanji text in these applications. I am sure these are all being worked on by NeXT-Cannon, but No, no such luck currently on NeXTStep. Izumi Ohzawa, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (10/23/90)
In article <9408@helios.TAMU.EDU> keithp@xavier.tamu.edu (Keith D Perkins) writes: >I belive that there are two Japanese NeXTStep versions out there. If there are "two Japanese NeXTStep versions out there" it is news to me and NeXus (the Japanese NeXT user group). Those of us who do Japanese language processing on a NeXT use kterm under XNeXT for kanji display, Wnn for Japanese input (using uum and nemacs as user interfaces), and JTeX for printing kanji text (there's also a package called kanjips, but the only readily available font for it produces tiny output). The last I heard from NeXT, it required an extension to the Display PostScript language to handle characters that were represented by more than one byte, and that this extension was *not* in 2.0. Since most of us do not have 2.0, who knows when (if?) we will have support for East Asian languages. _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" _|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?" |_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin." --|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Gaijin ja nai. /|\ | |/\| _______ / \ MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU Omae ha gaijin darou" / | \ | |__| / \ / \"Iie, boku ha nihonjin." "Souka. Yappari gaijin!" Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (10/23/90)
In article <577@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU> barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: >There one thing that cannot be denied about X11---it is a defacto >standard. As such, it is valuable. As long as all GUIs support >X, we can have at least a degree of platform independence, and at least >do some level of windowing across all platforms and networks. X11 >is a common denominator (and free). That is its value. > >Yes, the world would be a better place if X11 could be replaced by >NeXTStep---but it can't be, since it is proprietary. This is 100% true!!! Let me modify this statement slightly: >There one thing that cannot be denied about Unix---it is a defacto >standard. As such, it is valuable. As long as all CPUs support >Unix, we can have at least a degree of platform independence, and at least >do some level of windowing across all platforms and networks. Unix >is a common denominator. That is its value. > >Yes, the world would be a better place if Unix could be replaced by >[TOPS-20 | VAX/VMS | what-have-you] ---but it can't be, since it is >proprietary. Now do you X-haters understand why X11 is so important? Unix-haters had to go through the same thing. I cringe a little bit every time I have to look in a manual to find out which one-character switch (don't forget to get correct upper or lower case!) and which bizarre program name I need to invoke to do something. I can remember much friendlier operating systems, where I could even ask the program to point me at what to do. RTFM? A lot of time, there was *no* FM because the program's self-documentation sufficed. But those operating systems are (or were) proprietary, and are dying (or already dead and buried). You can cry for the dead, but life must go on. After being widowed by the death of TOPS-20 and PDP-10 CPUs, I have no intention of getting married to NeXTStep. Fool me twice, shame on me! _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" _|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?" |_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin." --|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Gaijin ja nai. /|\ | |/\| _______ / \ MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU Omae ha gaijin darou" / | \ | |__| / \ / \"Iie, boku ha nihonjin." "Souka. Yappari gaijin!" Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (10/23/90)
In article <1990Oct23.005737.18459@mcs.anl.gov> korp@atlantis.ees.anl.gov (Peter Korp) writes: >Not entirely true. Yes NeXTstep only runs on NeXT and IBM machines but it is >inherently network based and there is nothing, other than NeXT and IBM, >preventing the port of NeXTstep to other platforms. Ahem. I have seen *no* motion whatever on NeXT's part to open NeXTstep so implementors can develop NeXTstep engines on other platforms. In other words, you can only have NeXTstep on platforms NeXT has decided to allow NeXTstep on, under NeXT's terms and conditions. >It seems that Toshiba was able to produce a SPARCportable offering this >capability under NeWS. Its just a matter of time before the fonts become >available in standard PostScript formats. PostScript East Asian fonts are not the problem. The problem is that the NeXT Display PostScript driver itself cannot handle multi-byte character fonts! >>"Foolish" X11 allows us to use US-produced and maintained hardware to >>access the 25 Dynasties database at our East Asian Languages Library >>instead of having to buy Taiwanese PCs that explode if the monitor is >>turned on before the CPU is. >What exactly is your point? The point is that the only ways today for a user to connect to a Taiwanese Chinese-language database (which uses BIG5, an incompatible representation Chinese from the BG system used in mainland China) are: . X11, any X11-supporting platform . Macintosh with Apple Taiwan's system software . Taiwanese PC that isn't supported outside of Taiwan and breaks a lot >>If I were to wager on which was more likely to survive longer, X11 or >>NeXT, I would put my money on "foolish" X11. >I will agree, but it sure makes a sad statement for the supposed computer >professionals out there if it does. X has served its purpose, now lets move >on to more mature technology. Have you ever noticed how every new version >of X looks more and more like NeWS or NeXTstep? Lets have hybrid systems to >tide us over while we withdraw from X and then good riddance. X will survive for the same reasons Unix has survived. Unix is an incredibly *primitive* operating system. It's the tools layered on top of Unix, and its portability to unlimited platforms, that have pushed it to the top of the heap. Unless NeXT gives NeXTstep to the world, NeXTstep is doomed to be nothing more than a footnote in alt.folklore.computers. _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" _|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?" |_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin." --|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Gaijin ja nai. /|\ | |/\| _______ / \ MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU Omae ha gaijin darou" / | \ | |__| / \ / \"Iie, boku ha nihonjin." "Souka. Yappari gaijin!" Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (10/23/90)
In article <577@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU> barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: >There one thing that cannot be denied about X11---it is a defacto >standard. MS Windows is a "defacto standard" and even more popular than X! Should we all get SoftPC? >(Lets carry out any future X11 wars elsewhere...sorry I brought it up.) Yeah! -=EPS=- -- X : NextStep = Cobol : Objective-C
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (10/23/90)
In <9751@milton.u.washington.edu> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: >X will survive for the same reasons Unix has survived. Unix is an >incredibly *primitive* operating system. It's the tools layered on >top of Unix, and its portability to unlimited platforms, that have >pushed it to the top of the heap. >Unless NeXT gives NeXTstep to the world, NeXTstep is doomed to be >nothing more than a footnote in alt.folklore.computers. Ah, so I guess Mac is doomed to become a footnote too eh? After all, they haven't given away their window interface ither have they? I find that quite amusing. -k
ramsdell@mitre.org (John D. Ramsdell) (10/25/90)
In article <577@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU> barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes:
.....
Yes, the world would be a better place if X11 could be replaced by
NeXTStep---but it can't be, since it is proprietary.
Actually, I hope someday NeXT gives a great gift to the computer
industry and makes NeXTStep freely available to run on other platforms.
This, of course, would be a radical thing to do---but NeXT is just the
company that could do such a thing.
.....
--
Barry Merriman
UCLA Dept. of Math
UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research
barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
Do you really think there is hope that the company that is promoting
Lotus software will make NeXTStep freely available to run on other
platforms? What do you think IBM would say about this action? How
about the investors in NeXT Inc.? Do you know something you are not
telling?
Johnamanda@visix.com (Amanda Walker) (10/27/90)
In article <1990Oct22.162948.13240@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >You're going to be waiting a very long time [for X to die]. It has far too >much support from major companies to ever die. Pity. Indeed. After all, COBOL and FORTRAN H are still alive... However, I have been pleasantly surprised with how unenthusiastic the UNIX marketplace as a whole is about X. Here's hoping that capitalism works :). -- Amanda Walker amanda@visix.com Visix Software Inc. ...!uunet!visix!amanda -- If you know what you're doing, how long it will take, or how much it will cost, it isn't research.
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (10/28/90)
Planet X, indeed. An exclusive for comp.sys.next readers: the X joke Brad Templeton refused to print in rec.humor.funny: "graphic rendition" Bowing to recent decisions by the Motion Picture Association of America, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has agreed to rename the X Window System the NC-17 Window System. [No, NC does not stand for "NeXT Competitor"] -=EPS=- -- "So--come up to the lab--and see what's on the slab" --Rocky Horror Picture Show "Let's face it, Mac/that basic black/it's coming back" --Shock Treatment
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (10/28/90)
In article <RAMSDELL.90Oct25075659@huxley.mitre.org> ramsdell@mitre.org writes: >Do you really think there is hope that the company that is promoting >Lotus software will make NeXTStep freely available to run on other >platforms? First, it need not be absolutely free---as long as the licensing fees are modest (after all, Unix has prospered in the presence of such licensing fees). Though the freer, the better. But, if they really want to contribute to the evolution of computing, and not just be another blip on the chart, they will make NeXTStep available---in time. > What do you think IBM would say about this action? How >about the investors in NeXT Inc.? Since NeXT is private, NeXT has few investors per se, which is one reason such a decision could be made. Consider the principal players: Steve Jobs---a radical guy, as we know. Adobe---They recently released their PostScript font specs, rather than divide the computing world between conflicting standards (In response to Apples move to develop their own proprietary font technology) H. Ross Perot---A multibillionaire, old, and a leader in the applications of computers to data processing---at this point, he should be more interested in leaving a valuable legacy than making more $. Cannon---I don't know about their management, but if it is typical japanese, they consider the long term; in the long term, standardization of NeXTStep would be beneficial. IBM---Well, I don't count on IBM for progressive action, but all they did was license NeXTStep, so I doubt they have too much say, particularly down the road a few years. >Do you know something you are not >telling? No! I don't know anything about the legal complications of such a move. All I know is that once a good GUI is developed, it should be put forth as a standard, it should be made widely available to advance the state of computing. I think NeXTStep is good enough. I think Steve Jobs is forward thinking enough to realize this, and to act on it. Think ahead for a moment: eventually, the operating systems and GUIs for personal computers will converge to some standards---I doubt we'll see continuing and unending competition between different ``species''. At some point, what exists will be ``good enough''---good enough that future alternatives will not offer enough benefit to cause users to switch. For example, among operating sytems, ``good enough'' probably means easy portability, virtual memory, multitasking, support for multiple processors, and a good set of utilities---and non-proprietary. Freedom from restrictive backward compatabilities is also good in the long run. (so perhaps Mach kernel will standard Unix shells and utilities will turn out to be ``good enough''). Among GUI's, the keys are: portability, network support, a rational imaging model, and good programmer utilities---and nonproprietary. X11 has 3 of the five. But it suffers from having been developed a little too soon, before a good imaging model was availabl, before good utilities/programming models were conceived, and before good hardware was in place---sure, X is backwards compatible with the Abacus, but at what cost? :-) On the otherhand, NeXTStep has all the desired features (object orientation, Interface builder, PostScript imaging model), except its not free. Forutnately, this defect is much easier to fix than those of X---maybe. Given that NeXTStep is good enough to sweep the GUI world if it were allowed to do so---and advance computing in the process---an innovator like Jobs will make it available to everyone, once the company is stable and profitable. For the only alternative is that NeXTStep will dissappear, once a non-proprietary GUI of similar quality comes about. -- Barry Merriman UCLA Dept. of Math UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
richf@adiron.UUCP (Rick Fanta) (10/30/90)
I agree with barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman). Compatibility is fast
becoming a HUGE issue. I hate to say it but the Next seems doomed to be an
also-ran (probably the best also-ran, but still an also-ran) unless they can
do something significant to tackle this issue. Believe me, I wish I could
say it ain't so.
Additional comments are in another article.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Fanta PAR Technologies
richf@adiron.UUCP
"... She said that she was working for the ABC news,
it was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use ..."
- Elvis Costellophd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (10/30/90)
******* Small licensing cost for NeXTStep doesn't do the job. If NeXTStep were to catch on, Jobs could then simply pull the carpet from under his competitors' feet. It would have to be a fairly complicated contingent contract to interest competitors. Hard to write, and easy to sue about lateron. I wonder if Jobs occasionally reads this bboard and finds the speculation on optimal GUI distribution policy amusing... /ivo welch ivo@next.agsm.ucla.edu
gcarter@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) (11/02/90)
Gosh you people hate X??? I haven't heard one good thing about it. Anybody out there like it? I was thinking, if NeXT supports such a system, how much more appealing it would be to buy a NeXT machine. As an undergrad, I was considering doing a 699 project for it and learning how to use it. But GOSH, you make it SOUND SCARY. --Gregory Just an UNDERGRAD, no fancy footers, not a prof, I just brown nose thats all.
vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Greg Vesper - RMS) (11/03/90)
In <1990Nov1.193640.2652@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> gcarter@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) writes: >Gosh you people hate X??? I haven't heard one good thing about it. Anybody >out there like it? >I was thinking, if NeXT supports such a system, how much more appealing it >would be to buy a NeXT machine. >--Gregory NextStep is a superior development environment, but X gives you certain functionality that I desperately need if I am to become a full-time cube-user. I'm a system and network administrator (among other things) and X allows me to log into a dozen entirely incompatable workstations at the click of a button. Once logged on, I can cut and paste from one machine to the other, from one 'vi' session to the other... etc. This makes my job soooo much easier. If NeXT would give you the option of some of this functionality, it would become a great tool for system's programmers and administrators. I still use the machine, but I'd like to be able to use it for my day to day drudgery of maintaining a network of sun's, dec's, hp's, solbourne's ... If I ever find the time, I'll right an app that provides just such functionality, but it wouldn't be that tough for NeXT to make their windowing environment more flexible. Greg Vesper (vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov) 301-286-5162 Goddard Space Flight Center; Greenbelt, Maryland "Two basic facts of life: 1) There is a God. 2) You're not him." -- Greg Vesper (vesper@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov) 301-286-5162 Goddard Space Flight Center; Greenbelt, Maryland "Two basic facts of life: 1) There is a God. 2) You're not him."