anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen R. Anderson) (10/24/90)
I've only seen the last couple of weeks postings in this group, so please excuse me if this has been asked and answered before. I did see one similar question, though, and no answer. In the new release of the NeXT software (2.0), they've dropped Allegro Common Lisp. I'm sorry to see that, since lisp is one of the most important things to me about the machine. Was ACL dropped because nobody uses the NeXT for lisp programming? And if not, why not? How much memory/swap/etc. do you have to have to make ACL usable on the NeXT? Are there any alternative lisp systems on the market? I understand Franz is planning to sell their new version with CLOS support, etc., for NeXT: has anyone seen it yet? And for a more extensive environment, has Franz's Composer been available for this platform? On the subject of memory, someone else asked how the color machine can come with 12 Mbytes, given that it apparently has eight SIMM slots in two banks of four. Has NeXT somehow found 2 Mbyte SIMMs (like the ones Apple has in mind for their new machines) to put in one bank? Or 1.5 Mbyte ones for all eight slots??? Steve Anderson Dept. of Cognitive Science The Johns Hopkins University <anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu>
glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) (10/27/90)
>Was ACL dropped because nobody uses the NeXT for lisp programming?
I somehow have this feeling that the fact that Apple bought Allegro
soon after the bundling arrangement was announced has something to do
with this.cnh5730@calvin.tamu.edu (Chuck Herrick) (10/28/90)
In article <275@autodesk.UUCP) glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) writes:
))Was ACL dropped because nobody uses the NeXT for lisp programming?
)
)I somehow have this feeling that the fact that Apple bought Allegro
)soon after the bundling arrangement was announced has something to do
)with this.
Gee, aren't feelings great! Too bad they're no substitute for real
information... like facts, for instance.mdixon@parc.xerox.com (Mike Dixon) (10/29/90)
>Was ACL dropped because nobody uses the NeXT for lisp programming?
I somehow have this feeling that the fact that Apple bought Allegro
soon after the bundling arrangement was announced has something to do
with this.
not even close. the "allegro CL" that runs on macs was developed
by a company called Coral; these are the people that apple bought.
the "allegro CL" that runs on NeXTs (and Suns, and various other
unix boxes) was developed by a company called Franz. a couple of
years ago Coral and Franz seem to have thought it would be a good
marketing move to give their products the same name, so that they
could appear to offer an integrated product that ran on both macs
& unix boxes. there doesn't seem to have been any other interaction
between the two companies. (as far as i know they continue to develop
their respective products completely independently.)
--
.mike.glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) (10/30/90)
>Gee, aren't feelings great! Too bad they're no substitute for real >information... like facts, for instance. I'm sorry for positing a reason. Lacking facts, it seemed logical. I said I felt, not knew. Oh well.
eshook@Franz.COM (Elizabeth Shook) (10/31/90)
> In the new release of the NeXT software (2.0), they've dropped Allegro > Common Lisp. I'm sorry to see that, since lisp is one of the most > important things to me about the machine. Was ACL dropped because > nobody uses the NeXT for lisp programming? And if not, why not? How > much memory/swap/etc. do you have to have to make ACL usable on the > NeXT? Are there any alternative lisp systems on the market? I > understand Franz is planning to sell their new version with CLOS > support, etc., for NeXT: has anyone seen it yet? And for a more > extensive environment, has Franz's Composer been available for this > platform? >> I somehow have this feeling that the fact that Apple bought Allegro >> soon after the bundling arrangement was announced has something to do >> with this. Here on the comp.sys.next we've seen evidence of quite a few LISP programmers. NeXT has stated that both Allegro CL and Sybase were unbundled because of other considerations, mainly relating to a new software distribution strategy. As noted by others, Apple's purchase of Coral Software and the rights to Mac OS-based Allegro CL (which happened two years ago!) has nothing to do with NeXT and Allegro CL. According to Franz' agreement with NeXT, Franz will begin shipping Allegro CL 3.1 when NeXT releases System 2.0. NeXT will provide free upgrades to its existing customers. New customers will purchase the software directly from Franz. The price for US customers is currently $1500, with educational discounts available. Allegro CL 4.0, with CLOS and a comprehensive delivery solution, will be available next year (about second quarter 1991). New customers, who have purchased Allegro CL 3.1 directly from Franz, will receive a free upgrade to 4.0 (customers always receive the first year's software maintenance for free). Existing NeXT customers can purchase software maintenance to receive Allegro CL 4.0 and technical support. One year's software maintenance costs $375 for the NeXT platform. Allegro CL requires a minimum of 4 Mb. memory. Additional swap space is required, but varies with the size of the application. Allegro Runtime is also available for the NeXT platform. This is a distribution license for developers to bundle a runtime version of Allegro CL with their delivered application. Allegro Composer, an interactive, windowized LISP development environment, is currently not available for the NeXT platform. For more information, contact Franz Inc. at (415) 548-3600 or email to info@franz.com. -- Elizabeth Shook, Franz Inc. 1995 University Avenue, Suite 275 eshook@Franz.COM (internet) Berkeley, CA 94704 uunet!franz!eshook (uucp) Phone: (415) 548-3600; FAX: (415) 548-8253
anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen R. Anderson) (10/31/90)
I've gotten several replies to my inquiry about ACL on NeXT machines, so I thought I ought to post a summary of what I (think I) know at this point. No one seems to have any explanation of why ACL was unbundled from the new release. Or at least no one has mentioned one (apart from the obvious suggestion that someone decided it was too much for their company - whether NeXT or Granz is unclear) to give away. Franz ACL has no corporate connection with Macintosh ACL, currently distributed by APDA (bought from Coral). Franz ACL 4.0 will include full CLOS support. It will be available any day now for Suns, and "will *definitely* be available for the NeXT." (quote from someone at Franz, no timetable specified). On the other hand, contrary to what several people told me, this will NOT be available free on NeXTs, educational or otherwise. The only product that educational users still get free but which is unbudled for others is Mathematica. ACL will cost $1500, with 50% academic discount. Franz also has an extensive development environment built around ACL, called Composer, and an interface builder called Allegro Common Windows. Both of these run on Suns, but there are no plans to port them to the NeXT. The current version of Franz (3.something), without CLOS, is also available for Macs. On the other hand, "there are no current plans to port ACL 4.0 to the MAC, although this may change." Franz' lack of interest in pursuing the Mac market may possibly derive from the success (and relative low cost) of the "native" MACL product, though it should be mentioned that there is apparently no other commercially supported Common Lisp that runs on Macs under A/UX. Steve Anderson Dept. of Cognitive Science The Johns Hopkins University <anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu>
anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen R. Anderson) (10/31/90)
Just one small postscript to my earlier posting about Franz ACL. There seems to be some confusion about whether educational customers can still get ACL free. At least as far as I understand it, only those who already have it as part of NeXT release 1.0 can (potentially) get a free upgrade to ACL 4.0. Those who buy a new machine are welcome to buy ACL from Franz, but they are NOT going to get it (either 3.x or 4.0) for free. I must say that one potential advantage from (my) buying a NeXT machine instead of, say, a Sun IPC is negated by the fact that I'll have to pay the same price for ACL to run on either machine, and (possibly because of the NeXT community's dislike of X) Franz is apparently uninterested in porting Composer to NeXT. So far, I haven't seen a lot of reason to believe that people take the NeXT seriously as a lisp platform. Steve Anderson <anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu>
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (11/01/90)
In article <ANDERSON.90Oct30152746@sapir.cog.jhu.edu>, anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen R. Anderson) writes: > I've gotten several replies to my inquiry about ACL on NeXT machines, > so I thought I ought to post a summary of what I (think I) know at > this point. > > No one seems to have any explanation of why ACL was unbundled from the > new release. Or at least no one has mentioned one (apart from the > obvious suggestion that someone decided it was too much for their > company - whether NeXT or Granz is unclear) to give away. > > Franz ACL has no corporate connection with Macintosh ACL, currently > distributed by APDA (bought from Coral). > > Franz ACL 4.0 will include full CLOS support. It will be available any > day now for Suns, and "will *definitely* be available for the NeXT." > (quote from someone at Franz, no timetable specified). On the other > hand, contrary to what several people told me, this will NOT be > available free on NeXTs, educational or otherwise. The only product > that educational users still get free but which is unbudled for others > is Mathematica. ACL will cost $1500, with 50% academic discount. (some of the stuff deleted) Oh well. If that $1500 really is the ACADEMIC price, I am really sad. How many students actually can afford that kind of price (half of a slab!)? Are there any reasonable Lisp options on NeXT? This information slows down my enthusiasm about getting a NeXTstation quite much. I thought I could get a decent Lisp for free... (or at least for a few hundred bucks). > > > Steve Anderson Jouni Alkio, Univ. of Helsinki, Finland
eshook@Franz.COM (Elizabeth Shook) (11/03/90)
In article <3797.272f0d38@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > Oh well. If that $1500 really is the ACADEMIC price, I am really sad. Franz' Allegro CL lists for $1500 on the NeXT platform. With the academic discount, the price is actually $750. (all prices US only). -- Elizabeth Shook, Franz Inc. 1995 University Avenue, Suite 275 eshook@Franz.COM (internet) Berkeley, CA 94704 uunet!franz!eshook (uucp) Phone: (415) 548-3600; FAX: (415) 548-8253
ramsdell@mitre.org (John D. Ramsdell) (11/05/90)
T is available for NeXT silly named computers. The files have been moved on wheaties.ai.mit.edu. The new paths are pub/systems/t3.1/nextt.tar # The binaries pub/systems/t3.1/nexttsources.tar # Complete sources for CISC machines. T is a Lisp system with an optimizing compiler for a Scheme like dialect of Lisp extended with object-oriented constructs John