kjh@aludra.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) (11/10/90)
How does one backup one's hard disk? On floppies? How long does it take? If you have a station, I assume you can't put a tape drive in; is it possible to get an external SCSI tape drive? Does such an animal exist? Do the drivers exist in the kernnel? -- favorite oxymorons: military intelligence, honest politician, civil war Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6 kjh@usc.edu ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
agm@cs.brown.edu (Axel Merk) (11/11/90)
In article <13089@chaph.usc.edu> kjh@aludra.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes: >How does one backup one's hard disk? On floppies? How long does it >take? If you have a station, I assume you can't put a tape drive in; >is it possible to get an external SCSI tape drive? Does such an animal >exist? Do the drivers exist in the kernnel? > >-- >favorite oxymorons: military intelligence, honest politician, civil war >Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6 kjh@usc.edu ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh For anyone who has a backup medium, this shouldn't be a major issue. Here's my suggestion for someone with a floppy+hard-drive system: - Buy NeXT's distribution on floppies. - Keep copies of your /usr/local/..., /Local... stuff - Do regular backups of /Users/<allUsers> Axel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Axel Merk "One needs a certain amount of blindness -- -- agm@cs.brown.edu to see perfection" - Christopher Nuzum -- -- phone/fax (401)272 2262 Brown University Box 53 Providence RI 02912 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (11/11/90)
I don't own a NeXT, but let me say, NeXT is very intelligent to
implement a 2.88Mb floppy drive in their machine. With such a device,
backup is just 37-112 floppies away (depending on whether you have a
105Mb or a 330Mb drive).
Believe it or not, this is realistic to do. I back up an 80Mb Mac
disk with 800K floppies. It's a royal drag to stuff 70 floppies in
the machine (I have about 57Mb in use), but was not too bad putting 30
floppies in, when the machine was young.
I have always believed in some formula for personal computers --
(1) Floppy drive should be as large as main memory (NeXT did all they
could to achieve this, given current standards).
(2) All of main memory should be readable in approximately 1 second.
(3) Hard disk should be configured to be 50% larger than necessary to
hold all applications and data files. This is because of the high
cost of garbage collection (deleting unneeded files). It is
counterproductive to manage a disk that is constantly near the
threshold of being full.
(4) Virtual Memory only doubles main memory; beyond this, performance
suffers too much to make virtual memory worthwhile.
(5) The CPU should execute 5 IPS for every bit of data displayed on
the screen (the 68040 NeXT does 8 IPS for the b/w display).asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (11/12/90)
In <61300044@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >Believe it or not, this is realistic to do. I back up an 80Mb Mac >disk with 800K floppies. It's a royal drag to stuff 70 floppies in >the machine (I have about 57Mb in use), but was not too bad putting 30 >floppies in, when the machine was young. >I have always believed in some formula for personal computers -- >(1) Floppy drive should be as large as main memory (NeXT did all they > could to achieve this, given current standards). Actually, they COULD have gone with Insight's new 20Mb floppy 3.5 inch drive! Yeah, the same type of floppies you use in your regular drives, except a special coating I believe, AND compatible with existing drives too, if memory serves. Now THAT would have been doing all they could to acheive that standard, as well as giving us a great, cheap, large distribution medium! -k
madler@piglet.caltech.edu (Mark Adler) (11/12/90)
>> Actually, they COULD have gone with Insight's new 20Mb floppy 3.5 inch >> drive! Yeah, the same type of floppies you use in your regular >> drives, except a special coating I believe, AND compatible with >> existing drives too, if memory serves. It is a different media, but interestingly, it is the *same* media required by the 2.88M drives. It uses special hexagonal crystals of barium-oxides (if memory serves) so as to have a highly regular structure for vertical magnetization. And, as you mention, you can still use the media in old drives, or new drives with old recording methods. I'd lay fairly good odds that NeXT will go the higher density drives when the reliability has been established. Mark Adler madler@piglet.caltech.edu
bb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) (11/12/90)
In article <13089@chaph.usc.edu> kjh@aludra.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes: > How does one backup one's hard disk? On floppies? How long does it > take? If you have a station, I assume you can't put a tape drive in; > is it possible to get an external SCSI tape drive? Does such an > animal exist? Do the drivers exist in the kernnel? Please see my earlier flame to Bruce Jasmer for details on specific schemes for backing up disks under UNIX - there is no need to repeat them here. But first, some philosophy (Workstations 101): A NeXTCube (and the original '030 cube) is designed such that it can run as a stand-alone machine. There is sufficient disk space to hold all the software NeXT supplies, as well as some room for new software. There is a disk device designed to hold the user's files (the floptical), and because of its nature it could hold as much data as the user generated by the extremely cheap operation of purchasing another floptical. The floptical is also of sufficient size to serve as the system backup device, so that you can back up your hard drive without swapping floppies 330 / 2.8 = 118 times. This is good. Then came the NeXTStation. It is clearly designed to perform as a part of a bigger network. There is enough hard drive space to make it boot (turn on, power up, and say hello) and swap (pretend that hard disk space is really memory space) locally, two things necessary for sanity and performance. While it does not have a bus for connection of a backup device, nor chassis space to expand the hard drive, it is smaller and cuter, and costs a lot less than a NeXTCube. If the NeXTStation is configured as part of a network of NeXTs, it may NFS mount (use files on another machine like they were its own, via the network) the rest of the NeXT software distribution from a NeXTCube machine, called a "server", that *does* have lots of disk space. The server also will have provisions like a floptical drive (or two or three) for backing up each machine in the network, including the NeXTStations. This is great; the average price per user "seat" is a lot less, necessities like backups are centralized, and hence more likely to get done regularly, and the load of configuration management for lots of machines is simpler. A sufficiently knowledgeable user may make a standalone system for himself out of a cheaper NeXTStation, and a third-party hard drive and tape. However, said user should not bug NeXT about providing backup or bus options for the NeXTStation. They already have. I am sorry that the price of a standalone system is not cheaper (oh, am I sorry!), but right now that's the way it is. I wish NeXT would produce some sort of literature promoting the price, power, and connectivity gains of setting up products in a networked fashion. They have already created a fantastic tool to manage machine configurations across the network (Netinfo). It's a shame that it can't be used to its full advantage when connecting a NeXT to different brands of products, but at least the NeXT will work well with the other protocols. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!mathlab.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@math.ufl.edu -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!mathlab.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@math.ufl.edu
scott@NIC.GAC.EDU (11/12/90)
madler@piglet.caltech.edu (Mark Adler) writes (in response to someone): >>> Actually, they COULD have gone with Insight's new 20Mb floppy 3.5 inch >>> drive! Yeah, the same type of floppies you use in your regular >>> drives, except a special coating I believe, AND compatible with >>> existing drives too, if memory serves. > >It is a different media, but interestingly, it is the *same* media required >by the 2.88M drives. It uses special hexagonal crystals of barium-oxides >(if memory serves) so as to have a highly regular structure for vertical >magnetization. And, as you mention, you can still use the media in old >drives, or new drives with old recording methods. > >I'd lay fairly good odds that NeXT will go the higher density drives when >the reliability has been established. How soon we forget (not you, Mark, but most everyone). What was one of the _biggest_ complaints about the original NeXT? Non-standard distribution media. Expensive, slow, ODs were not the "floppies-for- the-rest-of-us". I like them. They are very nice for archival storage. So are WORM drives. and WORMs are safer. And the latest batch are essentially write-once CD-ROMs. Back to floppies - 2.88M is the NeXT PC industry standard. This means that _everyone_ out there will support them - PC clones to Macs, right on to Suns, I'm sure. From talking with various NeXT and NeXT- related people, I think NeXT is fairly aware that they burned themselves with the optical drives. And I think they are concerned about making the same mistake again. I suspect that, at least with respect to distribution media, NeXT is going to follow the market from here on out. Which I think is just fine. 2.88M is not very large, but it works, and works with older formats. The higher density drives are all in about the same boat - they work with older formats, plus their own. The problem is that they _don't_ read 2.88M, yet. So they aren't the greatest. Also, 2.88M is a very small step forward, and thus should work well, because the manufacturers have plenty of experience with the current batch of drives. You can _always_ go out and grab a WORM or 20M 3.5" floppy and hang it off your scsi. Hopefully, we'll have people writing decent drivers for them, too (WORMs especially. Sure, they're scsi, but the write-onceness of them make for some interesting characteristics when imposing a file system over them). scott hess scott@gac.edu Independent NeXT Developer (Stuart) GAC Undergrad (Horrid. Simply Horrid. I mean the work!) <I still speak for nobody>
declan@remus.rutgers.edu (Declan McCullagh/LZ) (11/12/90)
In article <25377@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>, bb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) writes: > Please see my earlier flame to Bruce Jasmer for details on specific > schemes for backing up disks under UNIX - there is no need to repeat > them here. I assume you mean Bryce Jasmer? > But first, some philosophy (Workstations 101): > ... The floptical is also of sufficient size to serve > as the system backup device, so that you can back up your hard drive > without swapping floppies 330 / 2.8 = 118 times. This is good. The full release of NeXT's operating system takes about 210 MB. With some swap space, you'll only have about 100 MB of usable space to back up, which, at 35 floppies, is still a bit much. > I wish NeXT would produce some sort of literature promoting the price, > power, and connectivity gains of setting up products in a networked > fashion. I find it rather hard to believe that the professor teaching NeXT Workstations 101 has never read any of NeXT's new literature. Haven't you seen the fifteen-page white brochure with Steve on the cover, along with this quote: "...In the 1990s, competitive advantage will come from improving the productivity of entire groups, so they can stay ahead of a world that's changing faster than ever..." Or the brochure's centerfold, devoted to "Personal Computing becomes Interpersonal Computing." What you described is exactly what NeXT is selling: the idea of "Interpersonal Computing" and the productivity gains which accompany it... The concept is quite vague, but it fits NeXT's products and direction perfectly. Take a look at the brochures - they describe it well. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Declan McCullagh / NeXT Campus Consultant \ declan@remus.rutgers.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------
osborn@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) (11/12/90)
In article <> bb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) writes: >Then came the NeXTStation. It is clearly designed to perform as a >part of a bigger network. There is enough hard drive space to make it >boot (turn on, power up, and say hello) and swap (pretend that hard >disk space is really memory space) locally, two things necessary for >sanity and performance. While it does not have a bus for connection >of a backup device, nor chassis space to expand the hard drive, it is >smaller and cuter, and costs a lot less than a NeXTCube. OK. Once more, this is your brain on NeXT... The way you connect a backup device to a standalone NeXTstation is either: A. Buy an external tape drive that plugs into the SCSI port. (This is the "bus" you claim doesn't exist.) B. Live with backing up to floppies. (We assume at this point that dump under NeXTstep 2.0 is smart enough enough to handle floppies correctly. Or that somebody will quickly write a backup utility.) Check out the latest 3rd party products catalog (you do have one, right?) for companies selling external tape drives. As far as expanding the hard drive, that same SCSI port (It is AMAZINGLY handy, isn't it?) will allow you to plug in an external hard drive. >The >server also will have provisions like a floptical drive (or two or >three) for backing up each machine in the network, including the >NeXTStations. The original NeXTcube could only handle a single optical drive. Has this changed with the '040 board? - -John H. Osborn -osborn@cs.utexas.edu
bb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) (11/12/90)
In article <14566@cs.utexas.edu> osborn@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes: > OK. Once more, this is your brain on NeXT... I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. Certainly, for the knowledeable user, there are alternatives to a straight NeXT configuration. I just don't understand the venom towards NeXT, when they seem (to me at least) to have created a couple different configurations, for a couple different purposes. > (This is the "bus" you claim doesn't exist.) I said bus, but it was muddy thinking. The cpu/memory bus does not show up, but the SCSI bus certainly does. The NeXTStation is less expandable, but it is certainly usefully expandable. > Live with backing up to floppies. Well, to each his own taste, I suppose. I just find the idea of switching fifty-odd floppies quite objectionable. It will work. > (We assume at this point that dump under NeXTstep 2.0 is smart enough > enough to handle floppies correctly. Or that somebody will quickly > write a backup utility.) Actually, the credit goes to the operating system, UNIX, not the window manager, NeXTStep. There is almost certainly a device driver for the floppy, that lets you access it in "raw" mode. This mode makes the floppy look much like a magnetic tape. I would expect dump to work fine, spanning backups over diskettes, and prompting you when the next one is needed. > External SCSI add-ons. Yes, you can turn a NeXTStation into a reasonable standalone. Remember that with an external disk, in its own box, and an external tape, in another box, you have just made a much less neat and attractive system than both of the above in a NeXTCube. You have also considerably approached the price of a NeXTCube. You certainly don't have the same level of NeXT software support as you would get with a cube (I am thinking of the optical options under the browser menu, and the NeXT-provided disktab entries.) > The original NeXTcube could only handle a single optical drive. Has > this changed with the '040 board? Not that I was aware of. I was thinking more along the lines of multiple servers, each with their own floptical. This redundancy can be useful, to prevent loss of backup ability when your only floptical drive goes bye-bye. Tradeoffs like this depend on how big your network is. Thank you for catching my technical errors. Since you seem to be better informed as to third-party storage options than I am, perhaps I could ask you to post a price comparison between between a NeXTCube, and a fleshed-out NeXTStation. I am quite curious myself to see how much money saving is possible. -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!mathlab.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@math.ufl.edu