pz@emacs.uucp (Paul Czarnecki) (07/03/85)
Was I robbed?
1981 Dodge Omni, 63k miles, 2.2l
I had it repaired at the local Dodge Dealer (Silver Lake Dodge,
Wellesley, MA) and I think the bill was way too high.
Transmission Fluid/Filter $66.30 ;labor
Check Brakes 70.20 ;labor
Misc Materials 25.95
Shop Materials 13.65
------
176.10
Coil/Wires Installed 97.50 ;labor
Cables 22.62 ;parts
Coil 30.80 ;parts
Sealer 4.38 ;parts
Shop Materials 9.75
Tax 2.89
------
167.94
Some information first...
I wanted the transmission (manual) fluid replaced because a guy I trust
said Omni trans are bad nwes and should have the fluid replaced
occasionally. I couldn't do it myself because there was no drain plug!
The was a fill plug up high on the side but no drain. I presume they
took the side off and watched the fluid spill out.
The brakes (non-power) are much tighter now. The pedal no longer goes
all the way to the floor and the parking brakes is no longer ornamental.
The second bill was to solve the "stumbling/stalling when wet" problem.
I have had the wires, distributor cap replaced before to no avail. They
said the bad coil could have caused the cap/wires to fail. The sealant
was usd to "waterproof the computer" (can you imagine spraying
scotchguard on your vax? :-)
Was I robbed? Are these prices reasonable?
pZ
--
-- I was just exhausted from the act of being polite.
Paul Czarnecki
Uniworks decvax!{wanginst!infinet, cca}!emacs!pz
20 William Street emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA
Wellesley, MA 02181 (617) 235-2600gmack@denelvx.UUCP (Gregg Mackenzie) (07/09/85)
> 1981 Dodge Omni, 63k miles, 2.2l 1983 Plymouth Scamp, 50k mi., 2.2l (Omni, Horizon, 024, TC3, Rampage, Scamp are all L-body cars, i.e., same basic car) > I had it repaired at the local Dodge Dealer (Silver Lake Dodge, > Wellesley, MA) and I think the bill was way too high. > > Transmission Fluid/Filter $66.30 ;labor > Check Brakes 70.20 ;labor > Misc Materials 25.95 > Shop Materials 13.65 > ------ > 176.10 > > Coil/Wires Installed 97.50 ;labor > Cables 22.62 ;parts Are these the "wires" that were installes? If so, the price sounds high. I just bought a high-performance set from Direct-Connection (Dodge's performance arm) and only paid $25. > Coil 30.80 ;parts Sounds reasonable. > Sealer 4.38 ;parts For the computer? Sounds reasonable if they used the whole can. If not, did you get to take the can home? If not, I'd think this would be "shop materials". If I remember right, the computer is about $300, so maybe it's worth $4.38, huh? > Shop Materials 9.75 > Tax 2.89 > ------ > 167.94 "Shop materials" is usually a flat fee to cover stuff like rags, cleaning fluids, nuts & bolts, brake fluid, the plastic they lay on the seat to keep grease off, electrical connectors, etc. The fee is usually posted on a sign somewhere in the shop and tells what all it includes. I'm not sure what "Misc materials" are. Sounds like more "shop materials" to me. As far as labor rates go, I do my own work, so I'm not sure. I suppose it depends on the prevailing rates in your area. Is it around $18/hr or is it more like $27.50/hr? More? > I wanted the transmission (manual) fluid replaced because a guy I trust > said Omni trans are bad nwes and should have the fluid replaced > occasionally. I couldn't do it myself because there was no drain plug! > The was a fill plug up high on the side but no drain. I presume they > took the side off and watched the fluid spill out. It has to be siphoned out the fill hole. > The brakes (non-power) are much tighter now. The pedal no longer goes > all the way to the floor and the parking brakes is no longer ornamental. > > The second bill was to solve the "stumbling/stalling when wet" problem. > I have had the wires, distributor cap replaced before to no avail. They > said the bad coil could have caused the cap/wires to fail. The sealant Sounds like they "gotcha". The cap & wires don't "fail". The only time they need replacing is when they "leak". To check this, first look for cracks in the wires and cap. If you don't find any, turn off the garage lights and look for blue sparks from the wires or cap. These are the "leaks" you're looking for. There's a plastic water shield in front of the distributor, so you'll have to take that off to check the cap. > Paul Czarnecki Gregg Mackenzie denelcor!gmack
rosen@siemens.UUCP (07/09/85)
> > Was I robbed? > ... > Transmission Fluid/Filter $66.30 ;labor > Check Brakes 70.20 ;labor > Misc Materials 25.95 > Shop Materials 13.65 > ------ > 176.10 > ... > Coil/Wires Installed 97.50 ;labor > Cables 22.62 ;parts > Coil 30.80 ;parts > Sealer 4.38 ;parts > Shop Materials 9.75 > Tax 2.89 > ------ > 167.94 > Surely you jest! You might as well have went for a walk in Harlem at 2am on a Saturday night with a few hundred bucks in your pocket. It would have been easier. Let's see, to change the trans fluid (certainly a good idea for any car) would probably cost you $15.95 + $15.00 for the filter at AAMCO. To check the brakes this would probably be about 14.50 (an over-estimate). I am assuming that they did just a check and not a replace. This price would be too much for an entire brake job. As far as shop materials go, this is a new found fad in ripoffs these days. I read an article which stated that auto shops are starting to charge for things like paper towels and soap so the mechanic can wash his hands. For $13.65 this must have included the gold sequined paper towels and the extra heavy duty toilet paper for him to...nevermind! This is an outright ripoff. And what the hell is 'Misc. materials'? Maybe a pan gasket for the trans, but for $70+ I would think this price included that. Oh well. As far as the ignition stuff...well, I won't go into it but you got yanked bad! Please tell me that this is a joke, I hate to think that there are people on the net who go out and get ripped off by a factor of 4 or so and they ask their peers, "Did I get taken?" If you think you got ripped off call the BBB and scream, then call Chrysler and scream, then call your mother and scream. Don't let it happen again. In my opinion, it pays to buy a shop manual and do the work yourself, even if it means screwing something up a bit. There is no way that an average person can **** up a car as bad as an average mechanic. So there. Steve Rosen rosen@gypsy
mikey@trsvax (07/18/85)
$300 for a computer? I'll do a double check but I thought I could get the entire computer with the enhanced performance ROM for my Turbo fo $160. Maybe $300 is the computer and the interface module. The interface module is nothing but stuff like power darlingtons and such. Maybe the $160 is with trade of my old module, I don't know. As to checking for bad wires, I put a neon bulb on a screwdriver and ground it. Then slowly move it over the wires while holding the insulated handle. If the bulb flashes, the wire is bad. Another trick is to spray the wires with a "windex" bottle of water, if the engine sputters, the wire that you just sprayed should be replaced. mikey at trsvax
che@ptsfb.UUCP (Mitch Che) (07/21/85)
In article <91@denelvx.UUCP> gmack@denelvx.UUCP (Gregg Mackenzie) writes: > >As far as labor rates go, I do my own work, so I'm not sure. I >suppose it depends on the prevailing rates in your area. Is it >around $18/hr or is it more like $27.50/hr? More? > Huh? $18/hr? $27.50/hr?!!! This question made me curious about the cost of labor at dealerships across the USA. My local Berkeley Chevy dealer charges $45.00/hour (it may have gone up recently) and I wanted to hear what the rest of the country is paying. I'm not sure where the original posting was from, but WOW, I didn't realize the cost of GM, Chrysler, Ford or AMC DEALERSHIP labor (as opposed to local gas station labor cost) varied so much across the country... -- Mitch Che Pacific Bell --------------------------------------- disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer, too (415) 823-2438 uucp: {ihnp4,dual}!ptsfa!ptsfb!che
pz@emacs.uucp (Paul Czarnecki) (07/29/85)
I'm the original poster on this one, here's a little more info and some replies to replies. --- edited original article ---- oo 1981 Dodge Omni, 63k miles, 2.2l oo oo I had it repaired at the local Dodge Dealer (Silver Lake Dodge, oo Wellesley, MA) and I think the bill was way too high. oo oo Transmission Fluid/Filter $66.30 ;labor oo Check Brakes 70.20 ;labor oo Misc Materials 25.95 oo Shop Materials 13.65 oo ------ oo 176.10 oo oo Coil/Wires Installed 97.50 ;labor oo Cables 22.62 ;parts oo Coil 30.80 ;parts oo Sealer 4.38 ;parts oo Shop Materials 9.75 oo Tax 2.89 oo ------ oo 167.94 oo oo I wanted the transmission (manual) fluid replaced ... I couldn't do it oo myself because there was no drain plug! The was a fill plug up high on oo the side but no drain. I presume they took the side off and watched the oo fluid spill out. oo oo The second bill was to solve the "stumbling/stalling when wet" problem. oo I have had the wires, distributor cap replaced before to no avail. They oo said the bad coil could have caused the cap/wires to fail. The sealant oo was used to "waterproof the computer" (can you imagine spraying oo scotchguard on your vax? :-) oo oo pZ oo > Surely you jest! You might as well have went for a walk in Harlem at > 2am on a Saturday night with a few hundred bucks in your pocket. It > would have been easier. Yeah, It wouldn't have taken 4 days also. > Let's see, to change the trans fluid (certainly a good idea for any car) > would probably cost you $15.95 + $15.00 for the filter at AAMCO. To > check the brakes this would probably be about 14.50 (an over-estimate). > I am assuming that they did just a check and not a replace. This price > would be too much for an entire brake job. As far as shop materials go, > this is a new found fad in ripoffs these days. I read an article which > stated that auto shops are starting to charge for things like paper > towels and soap so the mechanic can wash his hands. For $13.65 this > must have included the gold sequined paper towels and the extra heavy > duty toilet paper for him to...nevermind! This is an outright ripoff. > And what the hell is 'Misc. materials'? Maybe a pan gasket for the > trans, but for $70+ I would think this price included that. Oh well. It looks like the misc charge is my front end alignment, and the shop materials is towellettes to wipe their slimy hands upon. > As far as the ignition stuff...well, I won't go into it but you got > yanked bad! Please tell me that this is a joke, I hate to think that > there are people on the net who go out and get ripped off by a factor of > 4 or so and they ask their peers, "Did I get taken?" If you think you > got ripped off call the BBB and scream, then call Chrysler and scream, > then call your mother and scream. Don't let it happen again. Maybe I should have put a :-) in the Subject line. I knew I was taken but still wanted a sanity check. I have 4 letters out to the local dealer, the Northeast Chrysler center, the Nation Chrysler center, and the Boston area BBB. Coincendentaly, a Silver Lake Dodge rep called me 2 days after I sent the letter wanting to know if I was happy with the service. This was NOT in response to my letters. I sent another copy of my letter to the person who called me. I have had no further replies > In my opinion, it pays to buy a shop manual and do the work yourself, > even if it means screwing something up a bit. There is no way that an > average person can **** up a car as bad as an average mechanic. > Steve Rosen Also, when I first worked on the parking brake the car pulled to the right when braking hard. I don't own the shop manual but I do have Chiltons'. The instructions for draining the fluid are most informative. 1) place pan to can the fluid 2) drain the fluid 3) replace the fluid etc... Grrrrrr.... > Are these the "wires" that were installes? If so, the price > sounds high. I just bought a high-performance set from > Direct-Connection (Dodge's performance arm) and only paid $25. > > Gregg Mackenzie sniff sniff... > They made out like bandits. Wow if I could make that kind of money doing > those kind of repairs, I would be a mechanic instead of a progrmammer. > Tranmission Fluid and Filter change I would think $25 is what I would > expect to pay (that is what I paid 6 months ago for SOHIO to do it). > Brakes are kind of a touchy subject since there is alot of liability > envolved in servicing them. However for the kind of symptoms you > describe, I believe the bill would be around $70 complete for the > brakes. So around $90 for the top bill would probably be reasonable. I > feel that the second bill is equally high. Did they give you an estimate > in writing that you signed ? I am not sure whether it is a state law or > a federal law, but here in Ohio, service stations are legally bound to > give you an estimate if any work to be done is over $50. In addition you > must sign the estimate giving them permission to do the work. To sum it > up I think you have been treated badly. > > Ed Thompson Interesting point about the brakes. No, I did not get an estimate. Sigh, another graduate of the school of experience. > I would fight them over the bill and file complaints with the BBB, > Chrysler, etc. See above. > Some of the questions I would want answered are: > What is their labor cost per hour? $US39 / hour > Can they justify the inordinate amount of time they must have said > it took to complete these simple, short procedures? They claim standard shop tables > What are these miscellaneous charges and shop materials? They should > give you an itemized bill. Can they justify these charges? > > David Grooms See above. > How in the world can you go to a dealer where they have such OBNOXIOUS > commercials on the radio? (SIlvER LAKE DodGE! (In Wellesley)) > andy Sorry about non-locals, but I had to repost this. It made my day. I laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair. Silverfish Lake Dodge is only 1/2 mile from Uniworks, the "software hoarders". > Sounds pretty steep to me (about standard rate, these days)... > > To get the trans lube out, you don't need to open the case. > You just go down to your local auto-parts store, and get an > oil gun, or what ever they call it, when you get the oil. It's > just a piston/cylinder arrangement, with a hose on the end, sorta' > like a bakers icing gun. It can be used to suck the oil out the > fill hole, at about a pint in 5 seconds, and used to put the fresh > oil in without spilling a drop. Costs about $5 to $10, lasts a > lifetime. > > Unless your coil is awfully hard to get at, $100 labor sounds > high also. Changing the wires is about a 5 minute job, with no tools > required. > > I do symphathize, tho'. Sometimes it just isn't handy to do the > work yourself, so ya take it down to the local shop. And each time > when ya get the bill, ya promise that's the last time you'll ever > do it. > Benton Holzworth Sigh... > I own an '84 GLH and I am planning on having the transmission fluid > changed eventually (probably between 10-15,000 miles). ... I asked > the shop manager shortly after I bought the car how much it would cost > to have it changed, because at the time I was investigating using a > synthetic fluid. By the way, DONT USE a synthetic fluid. The > transmissions use an ATF which is already light weight an it is what > the gears are designed for. Anyway, he told me he didn't have an > exact figure off-hand but said that it would run in the 25 to 30 > dollar price range total. There is in fact no drain plug and they do > remove the pan and then they must reseal it, which is why it would > even cost this much ($30) to have this done. > I recently received a letter from Chrysler stating that my local > dealer had beed awarded a citation for its above average repair work. > The letter gave me the impression that Chrysler is very interested in > improving their dealer's repair reputations, and if I had a problem > such as yours I think I would write directly to Chrysler to make them > aware of this situation. > > Barry Pangrle I have, thanks tho. > As to checking for bad wires, I put a neon bulb on a screwdriver and > ground it. Then slowly move it over the wires while holding the > insulated handle. If the bulb flashes, the wire is bad. Another > trick is to spray the wires with a "windex" bottle of water, if the > engine sputters, the wire that you just sprayed should be replaced. > > mikey at trsvax Good hint! (Again, sorry to repost but it is convenient to have it all in one place.) >>As far as labor rates go, I do my own work, so I'm not sure. I >>suppose it depends on the prevailing rates in your area. Is it >>around $18/hr or is it more like $27.50/hr? More? >> >Huh? $18/hr? $27.50/hr?!!! This question made me curious about the >cost of labor at dealerships across the USA. My local Berkeley Chevy dealer >charges $45.00/hour (it may have gone up recently) and I wanted to >hear what the rest of the country is paying. I'm not sure where the >original posting was from, but WOW, I didn't realize the cost of >GM, Chrysler, Ford or AMC DEALERSHIP labor (as opposed to local gas >station labor cost) varied so much across the country... >-- >Mitch Che >Pacific Bell Mitch, the previous person was just speculating, I paid $US39/hour. I just read in Boston Sunday (the 28th) Globe that qualified auto mechs are in very short supply. Good one can make $US45,000 a year not counting overtime. And a bit of humor. This is true. My brother just bought a '74 Plymouth Van, 125,000 miles and no brakes. Why'd he buy it? He's building a house out in the backwoods of New York and he needed a shed! It only cost $50 so the price was right. Maybe he's found the perfect use for Chrysler products. pZ -- -- Laying here, Lyin' in bed. Paul Czarnecki Uniworks decvax!{wanginst!infinet, cca}!emacs!pz 20 William Street emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA Wellesley, MA 02181 (617) 235-2600
pz@emacs.uucp (Paul Czarnecki) (07/29/85)
Gasp! In my ver long summary I forgot one crucial item...
Thanks to all you responded!
pZ
--
-- Laying here, Lyin' in bed.
Paul Czarnecki
Uniworks decvax!{wanginst!infinet, cca}!emacs!pz
20 William Street emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA
Wellesley, MA 02181 (617) 235-2600pz@emacs.uucp (Paul Czarnecki) (08/30/85)
I posted this a little while back, I've since gotten some results.
--- edited original article ----
oo 1981 Dodge Omni, 63k miles, 2.2l
oo
oo I had it repaired at the local Dodge Dealer (Silver Lake Dodge,
oo Wellesley, MA) and I think the bill was way too high.
oo
oo Transmission Fluid/Filter $66.30 ;labor
oo Check Brakes 70.20 ;labor
oo Misc Materials 25.95
oo Shop Materials 13.65
oo ------
oo 176.10
oo
oo Coil/Wires Installed 97.50 ;labor
oo Cables 22.62 ;parts
oo Coil 30.80 ;parts
oo Sealer 4.38 ;parts
oo Shop Materials 9.75
oo Tax 2.89
oo ------
oo 167.94
oo
oo I wanted the transmission (manual) fluid replaced ... I couldn't do it
oo myself because there was no drain plug! The was a fill plug up high on
oo the side but no drain. I presume they took the side off and watched the
oo fluid spill out.
oo
oo The second bill was to solve the "stumbling/stalling when wet" problem.
oo I have had the wires, distributor cap replaced before to no avail. They
oo said the bad coil could have caused the cap/wires to fail. The sealant
oo was used to "waterproof the computer" (can you imagine spraying
oo scotchguard on your vax? :-)
oo
oo pZ
oo
I sent letters to Chrylser in Detroit and Massachusetts, the Boston Area
Better Business Bureau, and the slime molds themselves, Silver Lake
Dodge. These letters were sent on July 16, 1985. Just yesterday,
August, 29, I got a letter from the BBB which contained a photocopy of a
letter from SLD. It read: (un corrected)
-----
Dear Anne Baker
Re Paul Czarnicki
In reviewing the repair orders and mr Czarnicki letter of complaint,
Silver Lake Dodge is willing to reduce the labor on repair order 2061.
The reduction will be from 2.5 hrs to 1.0 hrs a reduction of 58.50. This
reduction is because of the inconvenience Mr Czarnicki incountered.
Inconvience was a fault of both Parties involved.
If this settlement is satisfactory, please contact me at the dealership
and I will issue a check to Mr Czarnicki
Sincerely
<signature>
Paul G. Chella
Director of Service/Parts
-----
Now, repair order 2061 is the one for coil and wires. In my letter I
asked that it be completely refunded since the repairs did not help the
car at all. On the other hand, I can get something back from them,
maybe I should take it. But, if I say I am not satisfied, then SLD
might settle for more. They still have not formally addressed the misc
and shop materials.
Has anyone else been in a similar situation???
pZ
--
Paul Czarnecki
Uniworks decvax!{wanginst!infinet, cca}!emacs!pz
20 William Street emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA
Wellesley, MA 02181 (617) 235-2600pz@emacs.UUCP (Paul Czarnecki) (10/11/85)
- Summary to date, I believe I have been treated unfairly by Silver Lake Dodge of Wellesley Mass in the repair of my 1981 Dodge Omni. SLD, via the Better Buiness Bureau, is willing to refund about a third of my repair bill. I feel this is not enough and am going to take them to small claims court. The amount in question is under $200. If you want more detail I'd be happy to forward some to you, but most has already been posted to net.auto some time ago. Does anyone out there have any experience with small claims court? Is it easy, fun, rewarding? How informal is it? If the judgement is in my favor, how do I collect? Does it cost anything, do they have to pay if I win? How much should I ask for? (You would need to know more details in the case to answer this?) How long a wait before my case is heard? How should I prepare? Should I sit in on some cases before mine is heard? I'm cross posting this to net.auto and net.consumers because I feel that the subject do overlap. Please send all response to me and I will summarize in net.auto. pZ -- -- I don't need, I don't want it, and you cheated me out of it! Paul Czarnecki Uniworks decvax!wanginst!infinet!emacs!pz 20 William Street emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA Wellesley, MA 02181 (617) 235-2600
ray@othervax.UUCP (Raymond D. Dunn) (10/17/85)
In article <104@emacs.UUCP> pz@emacs.UUCP (Paul Czarnecki) writes: > >Summary to date, I believe I have been treated unfairly by [named auto >company] in the repair of my 1981 Dodge Omni. >.. >.. >...... I feel this is not enough and am going to take them to >small claims court..... >.. I have a major problem with the acceptability of postings giving a one sided viewpoint of a personal dispute prior to the outcome of litigation or what- ever. I did not see the associated postings giving details, and certainly I have had major problems with auto dealers and other suppliers myself, however publishing one side of the "facts" in a public forum seems to me to be akin to the evils of "black-lists" or publishing the names of payment defaulters etc. Does the other party have access to publish his refutations? Put yourself in the other's shoes for a moment. If, because of your dispute, you hadn't paid the bill, would you consider it acceptable if the dealer published your name with his side of the story in an ad in a newspaper? What are the opinions of the net readers? Ray Dunn. ..philabs!micomvax!othervax!ray
pz@emacs.UUCP (Paul Czarnecki) (10/21/85)
In article <712@othervax.UUCP> ray@othervax.UUCP (Raymond D. Dunn) writes: >In article <104@emacs.UUCP> pz@emacs.UUCP (Paul Czarnecki) writes: >>Summary to date, I believe I have been treated unfairly by [named auto >>company] in the repair of my 1981 Dodge Omni. >>...... I feel this is not enough and am going to take them to >>small claims court..... >I have a major problem with the acceptability of postings giving a one sided >viewpoint of a personal dispute prior to the outcome of litigation or what- >ever. I did not see the associated postings giving details, and certainly I >have had major problems with auto dealers and other suppliers myself, I think that the key word here is SUMMARY. This whole mater started with a posting of mine on July 3. I have since collected over 27,000 characters of postings, plus half a dozen or so personal letters. I'm not about to repost all of that to the net. I will send it to interested individuals. The articles referenced are : <119@emacs.uucp> (3jul), <25300051@siemens.UUCP> (9jul), <734@abnji.UUCP> (10jul), <91@denelvx.UUCP> (9jul), <55200193@trsvax.UUCP> (18jul), <129@emacs.uucp> (29jul), <144@emacs.uucp> (30aug), <2324@emacs.uucp> (11oct). I can also send copies of the letters that I have sent to Chrysler, Silver Lake Dodge, and the BBB. >however publishing one side of the "facts" in a public forum seems to me to >be akin to the evils of "black-lists" or publishing the names of payment >defaulters etc. Does the other party have access to publish his >refutations? I do not consider USENET to be a public forum. It is a highly specialized (sometimes) friendly community with a high admissions price. You must have the the hardware, the software, the knowledge, and the desire. It is an exclusive private club where I can exchange both technical and mundane material and ask for advice on any topic. If SLD met the above criteria, they too could publish anything they wanted. (note that publishing something does not mean that the material is tolerated, witness the net.general MCI ad). I consider USENET to be a benefit of working for Uniworks. (I use it much more than the health plan :-) net.auto and net.conmsumers, (I wish I remembered to make the Followup-To line correct in the original posting) are NOT the proper place to discuss the purpose of USENET. If you wish to discuss it with me, send me personal mail. Let's not continue this here! (maybe net.news?) >Put yourself in the other's shoes for a moment. If, because of your >dispute, you hadn't paid the bill, would you consider it acceptable if the >dealer published your name with his side of the story in an ad in a >newspaper? I can see it now. A full page ad in the New York Times (or perhaps a small discreet notice in the New Yorker so only the "right" people would see it:-) "On July 2,3,9 and 10th, Paul Czarnecki of Natick Massachusetts had his car repaired at SLD. He was not satisfied with the repair work. We offered a refund of less than 1/3 the original price. He was still not satisfied. He is taking us to small claims court." I might even go in halfsies with them on the ad! Sarcasm aside, yes! Publish my name if I don't pay. I have a good credit record. Companies that I deal with know that they can count on me to pay on time if the contracted work is completed to my satisfaction. Other companies do NOT get repeat business, nor do they get reccomendations. I was kicked out of from first repair shop when I was in 10th grade after accusing them of shoddy workmanship. I'm starting to foam at the mouth, I must stop. >Ray Dunn. ..philabs!micomvax!othervax!ray pZ -- -- Flushed from the bathroom of your heart. Paul Czarnecki Uniworks, Inc. decvax!{cca,wanginst!infinet}!emacs!pz 20 William Street emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA Wellesley, MA 02181 (617) 235-2600