Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland) (11/20/90)
As a business user, here are the programs that I'd like to see on the NeXT, not including the one s that have already been announced in NeXT's "Software and Peripherals" publication, such as SoftPC and HyperCube: Symantec MORE 3.0 Aldus Persuasion Aldus PageMaker (yes, despite FrameMaker) Claris MacProject II CheckFree Softview MacInTax Adobe TrueForm Caere Omni (OCR software) KaleidaGraph or DeltaGraph Acius 4th Dimension Reference Software Grammatik Macromind Director CompuServe Navigator and, maybe, THINK Pascal Of course the preesing need for some of these programs would be mitigated if we had a "SoftMac." --Mitch -- Mitch Alland, Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401
my@dtg.nsc.com (Michael Yip) (11/22/90)
I would like to add the following from the point of view of a PC user (using MS Window 3.0). - MS Word - Cross Talk - Venture Publisher - Corel Draw - MS PowerPoint - AutoCAD and Generic CAD - Viewlogic (a E-CAD system) using the NeXT interface - Cadence - and a lot of games like the MACs. ;) -- Mike PS: So it is a pure wish list ...
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (11/22/90)
In article <2489.274A5E64@blkcat.fidonet.org> Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland) writes: >As a business user, here are the programs that I'd like to see on the >NeXT, [wishes deleted] Personally, I'd much rather have new software developed from the ground up than ports/copies of existing applications from the PC/Mac world. The reason being: the NeXT is so ``insanely greater'' than previous platforms, that the software can really be ``done right'' if developers rethink things from the ground up. Lotus Improv is one example---they free the spreadsheet from many unnecessary, unnatural, and unholy constraints spawned during the PC/Mac generation. I appreciate that businesses users have more pressing concerns than aesthetically correct software, but hopefully their need for ``backward compatibility'' can be met by having ultra-sharp apps that are data-backwards-compatible, instead of just having more backwards apps :-) I think lotus Improv is great for showing how things could be done, and I hope they---or others---similarly rework other apps. -- Barry Merriman UCLA Dept. of Math UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (11/22/90)
IMHO, It's usually a mistake to ask for particular programs "by name" as opposed to particular functionality--you're likely to end up with relatively crippled software. The NeXT is a far more capable machine than PCs and Macs, and it's just plain stupid to try and clone the old stuff. (Politics notwithstanding) I think Lotus set a very good example by producing Improv rather than 1-2-3. Improv will import 1-2-3 files, so your investment is protected, but it's sooo much of an improvement over what it replaces. We have better <wordprocessors, databases, spreadsheets, you-name-it> already. If you keep asking vendors for CRAP you are going to get CRAP (this is called "responding to market demand"). "Well, we wanted to do things that exploited the unique features of the machine, but our customers kept telling us they wanted CRAP, so what were we to do? It's a good thing our competitors think the same way or our sales would be in the toilet." Hogwash! I really don't think companies can get away with this unless there are enough customers "stupid enough to cut their own throats"--it's very expensive to bring a product to market, and any company that can't GUARANTEE enough sales of wimpified software is going to lose bigtime as soon as someone trivially fills that market niche with a vastly superior product. BTW, When companies do develop "the same" program for multiple platforms they report that it's much easier for the NeXT. Adobe is showing off Illustrator 3.0 for the Mac for BMUG (local Mac user group) tonight. They showed it for the NeXT TWO MONTHS AGO for BaNG (local NeXT user group), at which time they couldn't announce a date for Mac availability. I think we're going to see more stories like this. -=EPS=-
anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen R. Anderson) (11/22/90)
In article <786@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU> barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: Personally, I'd much rather have new software developed from the ground up than ports/copies of existing applications from the PC/Mac world. The reason being: the NeXT is so ``insanely greater'' than previous platforms, that the software can really be ``done right'' if developers rethink things from the ground up. Lotus Improv is one example---they free the spreadsheet from many unnecessary, unnatural, and unholy constraints spawned during the PC/Mac generation. This is certainly true for flexible, general purpose applications like spreadsheets, wordprocessors, programming environments, etc. It is less obvious for specifically targeted things. I know I'd much rather have a straight port of MacinTax right now than a re-thought version in six months (i.e., after 15 April.....) Steve Anderson
cyliao@hardy.u.washington.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) (11/23/90)
I don't ask much, I want a Flight Simulator that is at least as good as, or
much better than Flisht Simulator 4.0 which is available on MS-DOS machines.
cyliao@wam.umd.edu o NeXT : I put main frame power on two chips.
@epsl.umd.edu o people: We put main flame power on two guys.
@bagend.eng.umd.edu o ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xxx (reserved) o RC + Apple // + Classic Music + NeXT = cyliaoeps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (11/23/90)
In article <11586@milton.u.washington.edu> cyliao@hardy.acs.washington.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) writes: >I don't ask much, I want a Flight Simulator that is at least as good as, or >much better than Flisht Simulator 4.0 which is available on MS-DOS machines. BO-RING. I want a Flight Simulator that blows the pants off Silicon Graphics' dogfight (running over the network, too!). You think we're buying color NeXTs to view GIF images??? Guess again. -=EPS=-
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (11/23/90)
In article <1034@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: > >I want a Flight Simulator that blows the pants off >Silicon Graphics' dogfight (running over the network, too!). Yeah...for instance, integrated stereo sound effects, voice input to control the plane and a heads up display (good way to exercise those alpha channels!) -- Barry Merriman UCLA Dept. of Math UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland) (11/24/90)
Yes, but when SoftPC for the NeXT comes out in February, you'll be able to run all of these PC programs on the NeXT. --Mitch -- Mitch Alland, Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401
Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland) (11/24/90)
> From: eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) > Date: 22 Nov 90 03:01:13 GMT > Organization: San Francisco State University > Message-ID: <1031@toaster.SFSU.EDU> > Newsgroups: comp.sys.next > > IMHO, It's usually a mistake to ask for particular programs "by > name" as opposed to particular functionality--you're likely to > end up with relatively crippled software. The NeXT is a far more > capable machine than PCs and Macs, and it's just plain stupid to > try and clone the old stuff. (Politics notwithstanding) I think > Lotus set a very good example by producing Improv rather than > 1-2-3. Improv will import 1-2-3 files, so your investment is > protected, but it's sooo much of an improvement over what it > replaces. > > We have better <wordprocessors, databases, spreadsheets, > you-name-it> already. If you keep asking vendors for CRAP you > are going to get CRAP (this is called "responding to market > demand"). "Well, we wanted to do things that exploited the > unique features of the machine, but our customers kept telling > us they wanted CRAP, so what were we to do? It's a good thing > our competitors think the same way or our sales would be in the > toilet." Hogwash! I really don't think companies can get away > with this unless there are enough customers "stupid enough to cut > their own throats"--it's very expensive to bring a product to > market, and any company that can't GUARANTEE enough sales of > wimpified software is going to lose bigtime as soon as someone > trivially fills that market niche with a vastly superior product. > > BTW, When companies do develop "the same" program for multiple > platforms they report that it's much easier for the NeXT. Adobe > is showing off Illustrator 3.0 for the Mac for BMUG (local Mac > user group) tonight. They showed it for the NeXT TWO MONTHS AGO > for BaNG (local NeXT user group), at which time they couldn't > announce a date for Mac availability. I think we're going to see > more stories like this. > > -=EPS=- > 0 > > > --- QM v1.00 > * Origin: blkcat.fidonet.org - Usenet<->Fidonet Gateway (1:109/40.0) Yes, but competition will make you do the best you can that's how we got DTP and PageMaker. As for Adobe Illustrator, I received my Mac version 3.0 last week but Adobe told me the NeXT version will be out in March --Mitch -- Mitch Alland, Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (11/24/90)
In article <1031@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >Adobe is showing off Illustrator 3.0 for the Mac for BMUG (local Mac >user group) tonight. They showed it for the NeXT TWO MONTHS AGO >for BaNG (local NeXT user group), at which time they couldn't >announce a date for Mac availability. Although I agree with your point in general about NeXT being a good development platform, this last point is a bit misleading, I think. Adobe is actually shipping Illustrator 3.0 for the Mac, and they are not yet shipping the NeXT version, all other things being equal. They also were demoing the Mac version at Seybold last month, and I'm sure before that, as well. As for "they couldn't announce a date for Mac availability," I am pretty sure that's because they are different development teams and different marketing people, and the NeXT team at Adobe simply didn't want to put words into the mouths of the Mac team in a public forum. There is a good chance that they knew perfectly well when the Mac product would ship, and also a good chance that they actually had no idea :-) This is all just anecdote, and nothing is implied one way or the other.
rsw@cs.brown.EDU (Bob Weiner) (11/24/90)
In article <1542@berlioz.nsc.com> my@dtg.nsc.com (Michael Yip) writes: > I would like to add the following from the point of > view of a PC user (using MS Window 3.0). > > - MS Word > - Cross Talk > - Venture Publisher > - Corel Draw > - MS PowerPoint Let me suggest that this sort of posting be discontinued for it adds nothing to the discussion. Everyone, including the developer market, knows that PC and Mac applications that sell well on those platforms would be useful on Next machines. But many developers want to wait for a large market to develop before porting to the machines; this is their choice. And the fact that people who are interested in Next machines are willing to publicly attest that they want to use these programs on the machine is not telling them anything new. They play by the numbers. So if you really want to see such things happen, generate guaranteed orders for thousands of copies yourself. You then will have the ear of at least the medium-sized developers. Bob -- Bob Weiner rsw@cs.brown.edu
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (11/24/90)
In article <RSW.90Nov24015442@slate.cs.brown.EDU> rsw@cs.brown.EDU (Bob Weiner) writes: >In article <1542@berlioz.nsc.com> my@dtg.nsc.com (Michael Yip) writes: > >> I would like to add the following from the point of >> view of a PC user (using MS Window 3.0). >> >> - MS Word >> - Cross Talk >> - Venture Publisher >> - Corel Draw >> - MS PowerPoint > >Let me suggest that this sort of posting be discontinued for it adds >nothing to the discussion. [stuff deleted re everyone knows,etc...] Let me add that I couldn't care less if these programs get ported to the NeXT. If people want to run them then they can buy a $1000 clone or use SoftPC. Surely we want better programs than that. I didn't get a NeXT just to see the same old stuff reappearing{ Philip McDunnough University of Toronto->philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (11/24/90)
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman): | Personally, I'd much rather have new software developed from the | ground up than ports/copies of existing applications from | the PC/Mac world. | | The reason being: the NeXT is so ``insanely greater'' than previous | platforms, that the software can really be ``done right'' if | developers rethink things from the ground up. Lotus Improv | is one example---they free the spreadsheet from many unnecessary, | unnatural, and unholy constraints spawned during the PC/Mac generation. Hang on one minute... I think we can all agree the NeXT is a very nice environment for developers. I must disagree, however, with the idea that previous applications were "constraints." I guess you are real handy with an eraser so doing spreadsheet things by hand allows you to easily rearrange how your numbers are displayed. This naturally easy task must be cramped by the likes of 1-2-3 and Excel. Software metaphors will undoubtedly continue to get better along the lines of 1-2-3 --> Improv. Let's not go overboard by calling things what they are not. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| "Get bent." |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | -- Bart Simpson | U | - Ackphtth |
Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Mitch Alland) (11/25/90)
In article <786@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU> barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry
Merriman) writes: "Personally, I'd much rather have new software
developed from the ground up than ports/copies of existing
applications from the PC/Mac world. The reason being: the NeXT is
so ``insanely greater'' than previous platforms, that the software
can really be ``done right'' if developers rethink things from the
ground up. Lotus Improv is one example---they free the spreadsheet
from many unnecessary, unnatural, and unholy constraints spawned
during the PC/Mac generation."
That's fine and I'm all for killer applications on the NeXT, making
full use of its special capabilities. But in the meantime I have to
get my work done, so if I have to give a talk in Sao Paulo or Tokyo
and I need overheads or slides and handoutd of them as well as
speakernotes, I cannot use my new NeXT but have to go back to the Mac
and run Aldus Persuasion (the best of its kind) to help me prepare my
speech quickly.
Yes Improv is great, but it doesn't have macros--Lotus says a future
release will. When? In the meantime, I run a department of 20 people
(we do project financing in South America) and keep a Lotus
spreadsheet on our Banyan LAN on which my staff enters information on
our project pipeline (projects that we are likely to do). Every week,
I pick this up on my Mac, run an Excel macro, and withing two minutes
I have a fully formatted pipeline report based on probability
categories for the various projects. If I use a NeXT in the office
(Ihave one at home), I'll have to go back to having my secretary do
this manually: lost time and errors creep in.
I'm looking into buying 40 NeXTs for the department. The absence of
macros in Improv and lack of programs like More 3.0, Aldus Persuasion,
MacProject II, Caere Omnipage and Adobe TrueForm is a serious
deterrent.
For personal use I miss programs such as CheckFree, MacInTax,
MacroMind Director, CompuServe Navigator and the best flight simulator
of them all, Mustang P51 (Bullseye Software). And how about some
improvements to the Chess program on the NeXT, like a move list
onscreen, a game replay capability, showing the square coordinate
labes on the screen? Also, thereUs a bug that says Black wins when
White does.
In another message someone took me to task for posting messages about
software I wanted on the NeXT; he said I should offer to buy 5,000
copies of a program and I'd get it. That's obviously absurd. I think
it is not obvious to developers what users want. If it were, the
author of that message would be a lot richer than he is.
Come to think of it here's another wish for some utilities on the
NeXT. A Mac Scrapbook type utility would be useful, so would a
DiskTop-type find file program. also DiskTops's DT Launch feature
which allows you to have a menu of applications _and_ files that you
can run--this could be implemented by letting the user add lists of
files to the applications in the Dock and haing the list pop up when
the user clicks on the icon in the dock while pressing Alternate.
This would add convenience and save time.
--Mitch
--
Mitch Alland, Mitch.Alland@f421.n109.z1.fidonet.org
via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway
blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401bostrov@storm.UUCP (Vareck Bostrom) (11/26/90)
In article <1034@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >You think we're buying color NeXTs to view GIF images??? There's a lot to be said for color gif images. > > -=EPS=- - Vareck
glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) (11/28/90)
>This is all just anecdote, and nothing is implied one way or the other.
Yet an Adobe person told me that the product was largely developed
on a cube in the beginning. Oh well, you'd know better than anybody
else here, I imagine.
Say just how much of PS is in the Mac version of Ilus. anyway?
Enquiring minds and all of that stuff..
How likely is it that DisplayTalk will be available for the
040 machines any time soon...I just got my copy and am really
not going to be too happy to lose it...
Advertisements for others: if you're doing serious DPS hacking
on your cube, be sure and pick up a copy of "Thinking In PostScript"
by Glenn Reid. It's rather basic for most programmers, but the PS-specific
insights contained in the CS101 examples are far from basic. A beginner
could take this book and become a programmer and in the process (without
knowing it) become a much better PS hacker than most experienced
programmers would be after a week of plowing through the RGB books.
It's given me several ideas already for my program, and I'm only
halfway through with it.
Just sit down with a copy of this book and DisplayTalk and you;ll
ber very fluent in no time flat.
- gdtgcube (Edward Jung) (12/01/90)
Although I think that Improv is really quite the cool product, I can't help wishing that it had a real macro language or other automation support. -- Edward Jung The Deep Thought Group, L.P. BIX: ejung 1518 1st Avenue South UUCP: uunet!dtgcube!ed Seattle, Washington 98134 Internet: ed@dtg.com (206) 343-5102
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (12/04/90)
In article <917@autodesk.COM> glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) writes: >Say just how much of PS is in the Mac version of Ilus. anyway? >Enquiring minds and all of that stuff.. There is very little of PS in any version of Illustrator, really, in the sense of a language interpreter. There is a simplified parser that can recognize PostScript tokens and look for ones that are of interest to Illustrator, but it can't execute any of the code. Some of the fill, stroke, and clip algorithms also appear to be built into the drawing code in Illustrator, but to my knowledge there isn't any language mechanism at all. >Advertisements for others: if you're doing serious DPS hacking >on your cube, be sure and pick up a copy of "Thinking In PostScript" >by Glenn Reid. Thanks!