mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) (01/15/91)
There seem to be three religions on the subject of X on the NeXT
expressed on this newsgroup.
#1 says that interoperability is of supreme importance, even at the
expense of ugliness. Anything, no matter how gross, is accepted as
long as the job gets done. This religion is called UNIXism.
#2 says that interoperability is of negative importance, and that it
is best to have a machine that is wonderful and pure. The rest of the
world is a bunch of cretins who deserve to suffer and should be
ignored. Eventually the cretins will suffer enough and move to the
True Religion. This religion is called Amigaism, the modern-day form
of ITSism.
#3 says that X is a total disgusting crock that is so bad that it must
be stamped out, no matter what work is impacted. It doesn't matter if
there isn't any alternate, or that the proferred alternative isn't all
that great either. This religion is called Macism.
The #2 and #3 religions are different, even if they appear similar; #2
is a conscious and perverse desire to be incompatible. All of us have
been guilty of #3 thinking from time to time.
In this case, I'm in the #1 camp. Frankly, I don't think that
NextStep is all that great. Yes, internally it is much prettier than
X. But there are only a fraction of the number of applications for
NextStep that there are for X, and NextStep is only readily available
on a single platform.
The real killer, though, is that NextStep is proprietary. If NextStep
was a quantum leap above X it may have survived this, but it isn't.
I've done enough programming in NextStep to conclude that this emperor
has no clothes. There are some gross kludges in NextStep.
NextStep is neat, but I don't think it's going to take over the world.
It's like the Amigoids who constantly bash the Mac; the Mac is a
Fischer-Price toy and consequently is easy to bash. But, of the boxes
of that technology (Mac, Amiga, Atari ST), which has been the big
seller? Sad but true.
What is a NeXT? It's either an incompatible, expensive PC (all the
problems of the Mac without the advantage of a big customer base) or
it's a cheap workstation with compatibility problems. I would not
want to be in that market position right now.
The Mac won big because of the pent-up demand for engines with a Xerox
interface; people were willing to overlook its exhorbitant cost and
limited capabilities. NeXT, I think, is selling machines based on
pent-up demand for an affordable personal UNIX workstation. [Let me
ask you, would you move to release 3.0 if NeXT yanked all the Unix
compatibility stuff out -- that is, if all you got was Mach with
NextStep on top of it?]
Spouting our religions and flames is fun, but let's take a step back
and try to ask ourselves -- who we are, what we are, what is our
machine, what do we want of it. To the #2 and #3 camps, which is more
important, keeping X off the NeXT or NeXT being around two years from
now?
_____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!"
_|_|_ -|- || __|__ / / R90/6 pilot, DoD #0105 "Gaijin ha doko?"
|_|_|_| |\-++- |===| / / Atheist & Proud "Niichan ha gaijin."
--|-- /| |||| |___| /\ (206) 842-2385/543-5762 "Chigau. Omae ha gaijin."
/|\ | |/\| _______ / \ FAX: (206) 543-3909 "Iie, boku ha nihonjin."
/ | \ | |__| / \ / \MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU "Souka. Yappari gaijin!"
Hee, dakedo UNIX nanka wo tsukatte, umaku ikanaku temo shiranai yo.greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (01/15/91)
mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: >There seem to be three religions on the subject of X on the NeXT >expressed on this newsgroup. > ... A bunch of pontification that doesn't really say anything... >In this case, I'm in the #1 camp. Frankly, I don't think that >NextStep is all that great. Yes, internally it is much prettier than >X. But there are only a fraction of the number of applications for >NextStep that there are for X, and NextStep is only readily available >on a single platform. Please name a few X applications, at least 5, that the average gal with a NeXT on her desk will want to buy and use. Or just name some X applications for starters. >The real killer, though, is that NextStep is proprietary. If NextStep >was a quantum leap above X it may have survived this, but it isn't. >I've done enough programming in NextStep to conclude that this emperor >has no clothes. There are some gross kludges in NextStep. So? It's still a HELL of a lot easier to program and that's the bottom line for me, as a programmer. As a user, it's a vastly simpler interface. That's the bottom line for the faculty around here. I would never think of setting someone loose with an X display on a Sun, whereas with a Mac or NeXT it's pretty darn intuitive for them. And NeXTStep doesn't cost me 100+MB on my disk. Admit it, you just don't like it 'cause you can't get the source. >NextStep is neat, but I don't think it's going to take over the world. >It's like the Amigoids who constantly bash the Mac; the Mac is a >Fischer-Price toy and consequently is easy to bash. But, of the boxes Yes, I remember when you informed Steve Jobs that it was a "Fischer-Price" (sic) toy at NeXT camp. The statement didn't mean anything then and it still doesn't. >What is a NeXT? It's either an incompatible, expensive PC (all the >problems of the Mac without the advantage of a big customer base) or >it's a cheap workstation with compatibility problems. I would not >want to be in that market position right now. Really? They're going gangbusters here at IU. >Spouting our religions and flames is fun, but let's take a step back >and try to ask ourselves -- who we are, what we are, what is our >machine, what do we want of it. To the #2 and #3 camps, which is more >important, keeping X off the NeXT or NeXT being around two years from >now? I've got a NeXT in my office (on which I am typing this article) and a Sun. I use the Sun ONLY when I absolutely MUST have an X display, which is about once every couple of months. We've got SPARCstations galore around here and I'm not tempted even ONE BIT to grab one of my own. > _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" > ... several megabytes of .sig deleted ... -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applications Disclaimer: Everything I say is true and I never lie.
abe@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Vic Abell) (01/15/91)
In article <greg.663887947@travis> greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: > >Please name a few X applications, at least 5, that the average gal with >a NeXT on her desk will want to buy and use. Or just name some X applications >for starters. SAS FrameMaker Island Graphics Write, Paint and Draw eXclaim (spreadsheet) Saber-C . . .
simmons@nucst4.neep.wisc.edu (kim h simmons) (01/15/91)
In article <greg.663887947@travis> greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: Path: erb1!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!zaphod!samsung!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cica!travis!greg From: greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next Date: 14 Jan 91 21:19:07 GMT References: <14378@milton.u.washington.edu> Sender: news@cica.cica.indiana.edu Lines: 63 mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: >There seem to be three religions on the subject of X on the NeXT >expressed on this newsgroup. > ... A bunch of pontification that doesn't really say anything... >In this case, I'm in the #1 camp. Frankly, I don't think that >NextStep is all that great. Yes, internally it is much prettier than >X. But there are only a fraction of the number of applications for >NextStep that there are for X, and NextStep is only readily available >on a single platform. >>Please name a few X applications, at least 5, that the average gal with >>a NeXT on her desk will want to buy and use. Or just name some X >>applications for starters. Here is a partial list. There are about 3 times as many that i could add if you are interested. email me if you want details of some of these. Q-CHART SPSS Graphics Visual:ProChart MasterPlanIFPS/Plus (Interactive Financial Planning System) Q-Calc RealTime Spreadsheet SPSS Tables SPSS Trends UltraCalc II - Spreadsheet and Graphics InterBase /rdb and ve SPSS Data Entry IXI X.desktop File Manager for X Window System Natural Language TOPIC Distributor Information System AutoCAD CADRA-III Design/Drafting Software CAMAND Desktop Bravo EIS NextCAD Drawing Managemant System PALETTE POWRTRAN Pro/ENGINEER UNIGRAPHICS ACSL(Advanced Continuous Simulation Language) Statemate ViewMaster AEGIS CMStat Configuration Management and Document Control System AGL/UNIGRAPH 2000 AGS/UNIEDIT 2000 AGS/UNIGRAPH+2000 Component Manager Data/View/NEXPERT Subroutine Bridge DV-Draw DV-Tools FIGARO+ GECK(Graphical Editor Construction Kit) GRAFkit Graphical Editor Construction Kit MATLAB (MATrix LABoratory) PV-Wave S-PLUS ADVENT-PLUS BATCHFRAC ADINA ANSYS MENTAT Interactive Graphics SYSNOISE ARC/INFO ARC/INFO COGO ARC/INFO NETWORK ARC/INFO TIN CEAL DIGIMAP CAPSIM( CAPture and SIMulate) ESPS (Entropic Signal Processing System) Waves+ AGS/UNIMAP 2000 Contouring System DISCO Seismic Processing System ISM (Interactive Surface Modeling) MIMIC QUIKRAY QUIKSHOT/QUIKVSP RAYMAP SDL (Surface Display Library) SGL (Surface Gridding Library) SLIPR SPL (Seismic Line Program) VESPA Z-MAP MagNet 2D/3D Allegro Asic Desigh Kits Cassiope CEP (Constraint Exploiter Process) DEPICT-2 Design Compiler E-Sys Greenfield HDL Compiler HIBRID THERMAL HILE-3 Universal Logic Simulation System HSPICE LSED LWAVE MiCAD II MICROWAVE HARMONICA Microwave SPICE PARASITIC PARAMETERS PathMill PCB THERMAL PCB VIBRATION Prance GT PSpice RAPIDSIM Saber Simulator SCICARDS Super-Compact SUPRA SUPREM-3 TESTBRIDGE Time-Mill TRANSCRIBE TSuprem-4 ValidGED ValidTIME Verifault-XL Verilog Verilog-XL Veritime VISULA PLUS VTI VLSI Design System WORKVIEW BEASY (Boundary Element Analysis System) DISPLAY II DYMES ENDURE FEAP FIDAP (Fluid Dynamics Analysis Package) FLUENT FLUENT/BCF I-DEAS (Integrated Design Engineering and Analysis System) NEKTON NISA II NISA-COMPOSITES NISA/3D-FLUID NISAOPT SEPS MPAC (Maintenance Planning and Control) GRAFMAKER PicSure PicSure Plus AddDys-3000 CGM-View Visual:CGM UIMS/USEIT HIPS Image Processing Software P-Cubed Visualization Workbench >> would never think of setting someone loose with an X display on a Sun, >>whereas with a Mac or NeXT it's pretty darn intuitive for them. Our faculty don't seem to have any problems. >>And NeXTStep doesn't cost me 100+MB on my disk. X doesn't cost me 100+MB on my disk. >>I've got a NeXT in my office (on which I am typing this article) and a >>Sun. I use the Sun ONLY when I absolutely MUST have an X display, which >>is about once every couple of months. We've got SPARCstations galore >>around here and I'm not tempted even ONE BIT to grab one of my own. Some of us NEED X in order to do our jobs. You don't. I do. I guess that means that my dreams of using a NeXT are shattered. Oh well, welcome reality. -- =============================================================================== Internet: simmons@nucst4.neep.wisc.edu Othernet: simmons@hoofers.lake.mendota --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- According to the HitchHikers guide to the galaxy, the one thing we *cannot* afford to have is a sense of perspective. ===============================================================================
greg@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (01/15/91)
In <2792A014.7695@orion.oac.uci.edu> mwu@teri.bio.uci.edu (Matt Wu) writes: >In article <greg.663887947@travis> >greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >>Please name a few X applications, at least 5, that the >>average gal with a NeXT on her desk will want to buy and > ^^^ >What is this supposed to imply? Nothing that you're not reading into it. I was going to type "the average guy" but then I said, "Hey greg, don't be so sexist. Why not make a strike AGAINST sex-typing in the 'puter workplace and substitute the female equivalent of 'guy' in there? As if it were as natural to talk of 'her' computer and software choices as it is to talk of 'his' computer and software choices." So I did. Plus, it's statistically safer to assume that women will be using the computer (although, unfortunately, not culturally safer). Women are the majority you know. -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applications Disclaimer: Everything I say is true and I never lie.
kim@mathcs.emory.edu (Kim Wallen {Psy}) (01/16/91)
In article <1991Jan15.135156.5950@uncecs.edu> jfreem@uncecs.edu (Joe Freeman) writes: > >I think if you look at the question and the answer given then you will note >that the bulk of the software listed was engineering software. There were >a couple of stat programs (mostly SPSS) and some file management tools also. >The reply is an example of software that is not for "the rest of us". I don't >think that I would run much of that software "at home" and I am an EE. I >agree there is quite a bit of software for X but most of is specialized in >rather arcane areas. From the Sun Catalyst CD-ROM catalogue: Here are the arcane applications running under X/NeWS now shipping WingZ WordPerfect 5.0 SAS (statistics and presentation graphics, a social sciences standard) Island Graphics: Write, Draw, & Paint DUX Quintet: Write, spreadsheet, personal database, graph, communicate AutoGraph presentation graphics Framemaker 2.1 (DP) Interleaf TPS 4.0 (DP) DBASE IV (allright this one might be RSN) The case of the cautious condor (CD-ROM game) Relative software availability is a non-issue. If NeXT succeeds in convincing folks to port to NextStep there will be as many packages available for NeXT as for X systems. For other vendors who have integrated their system with X a developer can port to X and cover several vendor's machines as well. A point is being missed in all of this discussion. For rabid X-haters this probably is a religious issue, but for others there is an important issue. Compare Sun's response to NeXT's. Sun developed NeWS which offers clear performance advantages over X for distributed windowing. The market opted for X. Sun merged X and NeWS. Thus a developer can develop for X and have it run under NeWS or a developer can develop for NeWS. Sun is not forcing the market to use their approach or not develop for Sun machines at all. I suspect this approach, besides being against current NeXT orthodoxy, is also beyond their technical resources. >The fact that Next doesn't run X native is really >a non issue for most folks. The people that need X need it to run their >applications and I think that needs to be addressed. The mac (yes I know >about the larger installed base, but bear with me) has X but I don't see >many people saying that it should drop QuickDraw for X. > Here is a practical example of how having X makes a difference in sales in an academic environment. We are installing a 20 station laboratory for statistics and research methodology. WE want each station served off a central machine and want decent graphics and good software. Some of the software is just becoming available under X (SAS, SPSS), but all is available now for Macs. Our problem, the MAC model of distributed computing is expensive and slow. Preferred solution, diskless X machines, or even X-terminals. This solution not yet viable in production environment because X apps are just becoming available. Compromise, Macs with ethernet and MAC-X which will allow us to migrate away from Macs as the X apps become available. NeXT was considered for this lab, but could only offer a NeXT-only solution. Given the heterogeneous academic environment we live in that would be like going back to IBM (something we have almost extricated ourselves from). Completely proprietary solutions are just not viable in most academic environments. Those who have been saying that X is a checklist item are on target. We may never end up using X on our macs or we may extend their useful life several years in an X environment, at least we have the option. NeXT gave us no choice, but to drop them from consideration. Kim Wallen Psychology Department Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322 (404) 727-4125 INTERNET: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu UUCP: {gatech decvax}!emory!kim BITNET: kim@emoryu1
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (01/17/91)
In article <6579@mace.cc.purdue.edu>, abe@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Vic Abell) writes: > In article <greg.663887947@travis> greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >>mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: >> >>Please name a few X applications, at least 5, that the average gal with >>a NeXT on her desk will want to buy and use. Or just name some X applications >>for starters. > > SAS > FrameMaker Why would a NeXT-owner want to buy the X-version of FrameMaker? > Island Graphics Write, Paint and Draw Hmm. He could buy Adobe Illustrator, for example. > eXclaim (spreadsheet) Well, how about Lotus Improv, etc... ? > Saber-C Is this a C compiler? If so, why on earth would a NeXT owner need another C compiler - he already has Objective C/C++/C with all the niceties! I just wrote this to show that the main purpose for X Windows on a NeXT would not be to offer the BASIC programs. If you want something very special, that has been done on X Windows but not on NeXTstep, then there is a place for X. (Or if you happen to have much X applications already.) But I guess that there will soon be many special and important products for NeXTstep - and some of them might not be available for X Windows. Jouni
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (01/17/91)
In <1991Jan16.163747.4557@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: [talking about various stuff on X, versus NeXT equivalent versions] >> Saber-C >Is this a C compiler? If so, why on earth would a NeXT owner need >another C compiler - he already has Objective C/C++/C with all the >niceties! No, it's not just another C compiler. It's an integrated C development system (editor, compiler, debugger, etc). The main power of Saber-C is in it's debugging, and that it does very very well. It's very cool. I know people who use it all the time who say that it would have taken them MUCH longer to debug various programs they were working on. It's something the NeXT sorely needs, a graphical, powerful debugging utility. It's about the only thing I can think of on X that I would like to see on the NeXT (for myself that is). A NeXTstep version would be pretty hot I would think. Make the NeXT an even better development platform. We definitely need something like Saber-C, I'd recommend writing the company and pleading with them for a version on the NeXT. Too bad I don't have their address handy. -k
kirchner@cs.umn.edu (Roger B. Kirchner) (01/17/91)
What is the cost of Saber-C per workstation? Isn't it $3000+? How many NeXT programmers would need it if this is the case?
glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) (01/17/91)
> eXclaim (spreadsheet)
That's a good on. Now how about the joek about the guy who...
--
Gary T. Lang (415)332-2344 x2702
Autodesk, Inc.
Sausalito, CA.
MCI: 370-0730glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) (01/17/91)
>Here is a partial list. There are about 3 times as many that i could add if >you are interested. email me if you want details of some of these. >Q-CHART >SPSS Graphics >Visual:ProChart About 100 applications that sell for an average price of about $3-10,000 and that only a handful of people use in any event, with a few exceptions of course. Plus, I couldn't help but notice that a lot of the "applications" you mention aren't. Like for example, the IXI X.desktop File Manager for X Window System, which is a sad commentary in and of itself on the state of X workstations; there's simply no market for such a thing in Windows, the Mac or NeXT because it's part of the environment. Also, you mention a few things which are data processing/database tools that have no User interface so I'm puzzled as to why you call them "X applcations"? >DISCO Seismic Processing System >PCB THERMAL >PCB VIBRATION Software my mother could use. Killer apps. Compelling application. Way cool apps. They will change the way you view you CGM files. The whole thread has me punch drunk, realizing what a tremendous mistake I have made investing in a machine that won't run NISAOPT. Steve, Steve, how can we be best of breed without these? Help! -- Gary T. Lang (415)332-2344 x2702 Autodesk, Inc. Sausalito, CA. MCI: 370-0730
glang@Autodesk.COM (Gary Lang) (01/17/91)
> >WingZ Runs on NeXT >WordPerfect 5.0 Uses X to emulate it's character-oriented DOS counterpart. This is the next step? >SAS (statistics and presentation graphics, a social sciences standard) That's nice. >Island Graphics: Write, Draw, & Paint Island who? >DUX Quintet: Write, spreadsheet, personal database, graph, communicate That's nice. >AutoGraph presentation graphics That's nice. >Framemaker 2.1 (DP) Runs in a fashion consistent with its environment on the Mac and NeXT but not under OpenWindows and costs 3x as much for the priveldge of confusing your fingers. >Interleaf TPS 4.0 (DP) The industry standards are Pagemaker, Quark Express, Ventura Publisher, and Framemaker. Interleaf lost their short 2 years ago when they wouldn't design a product that knows what environment it's in. The DTP market is far more interesed in Quark Express which is being ported to the NeXT and Framemaker than this dinosaur. >DBASE IV (allright this one might be RSN) Since I designed a lot of this program, it breaks my heart to say that it will be just as dated (1986) as its DOS counterpart is because like 1-2-3 for the Sun, it looks and acts identically to its DOS counter part. The only thing it will do with XView is to draw into a TTY window object as if it were an 80-24 screen. I hope this never sees the light of day on the cube. Come on, the NeXT applications are so beautifuL...where's your sense of artistry? - G -- Gary T. Lang (415)332-2344 x2702 Autodesk, Inc. Sausalito, CA. MCI: 370-0730
dan@gacvx2.gac.edu (01/17/91)
In article <1991Jan16.163747.4557@cc.helsinki.fi>, jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > I just wrote this to show that the main purpose for X Windows on a NeXT > would not be to offer the BASIC programs. If you want something very > special, that has been done on X Windows but not on NeXTstep, then there > is a place for X. (Or if you happen to have much X applications > already.) > > But I guess that there will soon be many special and important products > for NeXTstep - and some of them might not be available for X Windows. > > Jouni One the reasons to use X applications over a NeXTstep application that has the same basic funtionality it to be able to exchange data with a workgroup that is not lucky enough to have NeXTstep to work with. I am especially not impressed with the NeXT's ability to import editable object graphics from other platforms, bitmaps are great for some things, but I have network maps that I would like to continue to keep up to date, bitmaps just don't cut it. TopDraw or even Draw would be great for these maps, but neither one can read my files. I don't want to have to redraw the maps. -- Dan Boehlke Internet: dan@gac.edu Campus Network Manager BITNET: dan@gacvax1.bitnet Gustavus Adolphus College St. Peter, MN 56082 USA Phone: (507)933-7596
dan@gacvx2.gac.edu (01/17/91)
In article <1991Jan16.202715.3202@cs.umn.edu>, kirchner@cs.umn.edu (Roger B. Kirchner) writes: > What is the cost of Saber-C per workstation? Isn't it $3000+? > How many NeXT programmers would need it if this is the case? But if you already own it, sure would be a shame not to be able to make use of it from your NeXT. That about sums up why I need X on the NeXT to preserve my software and hardware investment in other platforms, until such time as the funding is available to replace it with the slickest and the latest. -- Dan Boehlke Internet: dan@gac.edu Campus Network Manager BITNET: dan@gacvax1.bitnet Gustavus Adolphus College St. Peter, MN 56082 USA Phone: (507)933-7596
waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu (01/18/91)
In article <SCOTT.91Jan17101636@mcs-server.gac.edu>, scott@mcs-server.gac.edu (Scott Hess) writes: > In article <1991Jan16.202715.3202@cs.umn.edu> kirchner@cs.umn.edu (Roger B. >Kirchner) writes: > What is the cost of Saber-C per workstation? Isn't it $3000+? > How many NeXT programmers would need it if this is the case? > > I _need_ it. But, since they don't have it out for NeXTs, and more > importantly, I couldn't afford it, I probably wouldn't purchase it. > Of course, there are enough development companies out there who _would_ > purchase it, even at $3000. Especially companies where programmer's > time is money (hmm, which ones are those :-). I've never used Saber C nor talked with anyone who has (nor have any other connection with the product) but have read good things about it in the trade press. Provides, as I recall, an interpreter (no waiting for long build), debugger and code browser. Believe they have announced C++ support. If they were to integrate with Interface Builder and NeXTstep, maybe a number of us might find we need it... even at $3000. A lot more of us would need it at $300, of course. I wonder if we aren't nearing the point where we'll see more personal computer pricing for workstation software in general. The market may be becoming large enough that you can make more by selling more for less per unit. The NeXT combines much of the best of the personal computer and workstation so maybe we're the ideal guinea pigs. So how about it you vendors of successful workstation products? Want to try an experiment? Want to try selling your workstation software at PC prices to NeXT owners? Can you afford to pass up this golden opportunity:^)??? c.f.waltrip DDN: <waltrip@jhuapl.edu> Opinions expressed are my own.