joe@oregon.uoregon.edu (01/05/91)
After talking to my second new UNIX-phobic NeXT slab owner in as many days, and
while I "patiently" await an 040 upgrade board for my cube, I ponder the
following zen-like question:
Why has NeXT elected to sell each new NeXT slab preconfigured with a
(rather poorly chosen) static set of applications?
Doth NeXT not have its ear to the ground? Can it not hear the wailing
and nashing of teeth of new users all asking, "Where is TeX? Where is
Mathematica? Why can't I compile a C program on my new machine? Why
isn't Kermit shipped with my slab? How about f2c? UNIX man pages?"
Maybe someone in Marketing at NeXT (there *is* a Marketing Department at
NeXT, isn't there?) could come up with the *brilliant* idea of actually
offering *two* different initial software configurations for the slab:
(1) One for whatever (queerly defined) market segment the current
distribution is aimed at, and
(2) One for us techno nerds who'd like to be able to use Mathematica,
TeX, talk to other systems over a modem, and write and run programs.
I can see a number of ways of doing this -- either by:
(a) shipping a box marked "normal" or a box marked "techno nerd version"
direct from the factory upon receipt of an appropriate order (the
"I can order your pickup with an automatic or a manual transmission
right from the factory, just tell me which you'd prefer" model)
or
(b) having the system preconfigured with the OS and other "non-optional"
system elements, and then having the dealer/computer sales program
personnel load whatever selection of optional applications the user
selects from a complete-distribution-containing "master" machine,
provided the applications use no more than the available free space
(the "Would you like optional dealer-installed undercoating?" model)
This model would even lend itself to an "expert system" application
that would ask intelligent queries to help a naive user decide what
applications he should have installed, given his needs and the
available space; alternatively, a mimeod sheet showing the available
free space as-shipped and the size of each optional application would
probably also work just fine, given the loan of a calculator...
or
(c) having individual applications available for purchase on an
application-by-application basis; i.e., make something available
besides the *complete* extended distribution for $175.00, only.
That is, how about "Item XYZ99: TeX for the NeXT Slab on Floppy --
$20.00" with comparable items for other major software many people
will want... (the "Let's go to K-Mart and buy a gun rack and some
fuzzy dice to make this truck something *special*!" model).
Given that Slab owners don't get a copy of the OS on removable media,
electing to yank Webster (replacing it with the $4.00 paperback edition)
together with other neato-but-unneeded applications means a *major* diskette
shuffle or imposing upon someone else with higher capacity media if you
want to back your copy of those applications up before zotting them. Moreover,
backing up and frying applications isn't exactly the ideal introduction
to using an "easy to use machine" for those who are still shocky from
finding out that (surprise, surprise), no, the entire extended edition
*isn't* on the 105 meg stock hard drive as shipped.
Does no one at NeXT remember just how scary buying a new computer system
can be for a non-hacker-ish person? That's why I was particularly apalled
to hear from one of my new NeXT owners that the bona-fide NeXT employee
he'd talked to (who shall remain nameless) was *completely* unsympathetic
and un-helpful. The gist of the response was, "Hum, somebody should have
told you that wasn't the case [i.e., that you don't get the complete
extended edition on the 105 drive]. Well, you're entitled to the whole
thing -- 'just' find someone who has the full distribution and get it
from them."
Note that this was a genuine NeXT employee, not a student rep, not a
sales program employee, but a real NeXT person who should be trying to
fix problems like this when they arise. What NeXT seems to still not
understand is that this one user I talked to has probably told about
a hundred of his friends "Boy am I sorry I bought a NeXT. They sure
managed to make a fool out of me. Here it is <n> days later, and I still
can't begin to do real work on my machine. I wish I'd bought a Mac or
a 386 PC... Sure my NeXT has a 100 meg drive, but so far all I can do
is use WriteNow. They told me it would be easy to use, but I have to
know all sorts of UNIX just to be able to do anything 'real'."
If I'm the only one encountering new slab owners dismayed at the
application mix shipped on their drive, please feel free to mail me
flames a plenty. Maybe I've got atypical users (but I kind of doubt
it). Also, is there *ANYONE* who'd recommend selling a cube to a user
who isn't willing to invest some time in learning UNIX?
I tell you this: watch the marketing journals near you for my forthcoming
article, "The MIS-Marketing of the NeXT Computer" ...
Joe St Sauver (JOE@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU or JOE@OREGON)
Statistical Programmer and Consultant
University of Oregon Computing Center
DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own, and clearly without merit. Ask your own
new NeXT slab owners if you think I'm out to lunch....bb@sandbar.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) (01/05/91)
joe@oregon.uoregon.edu writes: > How about semi-custom or fully-custom software installation on 105 > Meg hard disks? I disagree. The slab is clearly designed as a network station, not as a standalone. If you want a standalone, purchase one - NeXT makes sure to sell you a reasonable amount of disk with a cube for standalone use. Remember that NeXT's corporate philosophy is to raise the common denominator. This philosophy does not match with your suggestions of throwing away large parts of the oh-so-valuable bundle, just to make it barely fit on a too-small drive. I think it a bonus that NeXT bothered to strip things down to fit at all, rather than leaving the first cut of this to network system administrators. Perhaps what needs to happen is for NeXT to stop selling slabs to people who want to use them as standalones, just as they initially didn't sell to Universities that wouldn't own up to the fact of maintenance. Would you prefer this? A more reasonable route would be to educate potential slab buyers via the net that slabs do not make reasonable standalones without the addition of at least 200 Meg of disk - and that they probably won't be happy if they choose to violate this guideline - and that this is an unsupported configuration that they will have to set up by themselves. There. Y'all are warned now. -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!mathlab.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@math.ufl.edu
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (01/05/91)
In article <20392.2784f527@oregon.uoregon.edu> joe@oregon.uoregon.edu writes: > Why has NeXT elected to sell each new NeXT slab preconfigured with a > (rather poorly chosen) static set of applications? The 105MB systems are run-time delivery platforms. They're for people who want to use spreadsheets, calendar programs, and simple wordprocessors. This is a large and highly profitable market. [Hit `n' now, I made my point.] Repeat after me: 105MB disk is INADEQUATE for program development. 8MB RAM is INADEQUATE for general usage. It *is* adequate for people who want to use the machine for a small, well-defined set of tasks--one at a time at that--and there are a LOT of potential customers who fit that profile. NeXT ships the things THOSE PEOPLE want. What they don't want, they don't have to pay for. > Doth NeXT not have its ear to the ground? Can it not hear the wailing > and nashing of teeth of new users all asking, "Where is TeX? Where is > Mathematica? Why can't I compile a C program on my new machine? Why > isn't Kermit shipped with my slab? How about f2c? UNIX man pages?" NeXT is more than happy to sell 400MB systems to "techno-nerds," as you call them. They come with lots of goodies. But why should NeXT ship Kermit when DataViz means extra dough for sales weasels? Fortunately, no one's put a snazzy GUI interface on C-Kermit yet! (You do know that Mac Kermit, which does have a snazzy GUI interface, is built from the same sources as the UNIX kermit, and that it would be a piece of cake to blow DataViz out of the water? But we're Nice People, and we don't do that.) (Unless it's copy-protected. :-) ) f2c keeps being improved-- the latest package on research.att.com is merely a week old, and it's not "reasonable" to ship code that isn't "stable." And there are lots of UNIX systems with all the development tools and text processing stuff, yet no online man pages. > This model would even lend itself to an "expert system" application > that would ask intelligent queries to help a naive user decide what > applications he should have installed, given his needs and the > available space; Someone would probably claim that infringes on the look-and-feel of suninstall. :-) >backing up and frying applications isn't exactly the ideal introduction >to using an "easy to use machine" for those who are still shocky from >finding out that (surprise, surprise), no, the entire extended edition >*isn't* on the 105 meg stock hard drive as shipped. I don't see any evidence of misrepresentation by NeXT Computer, Inc. (I'd watch out for those sleazy college bookstores, though.) > "Hum, somebody should have >told you that wasn't the case [i.e., that you don't get the complete >extended edition on the 105 drive]. I agree completely. Who should buy a 105MB slab? - someone who intends to turn it into a swap disk or completely replace it with a decently-sized third-party drive. AND SPEND MORE MONEY. Who should buy an 8MB system? - someone who intends to buy 4MB SIMMS from a third party because it's cheaper to throw the 1MB RAM in the trash than to buy adequately configured systems from NeXT. Why does NeXT sell 105MB/8MB systems when that's not adequate to do anything? - it's enough to run diagnostics. Why do customers buy 105MB/8MB systems? - because NeXT charges too damn much for realistic configurations. Why do students insist on buying computers they can't afford? - don't confuse education with intelligence. For whom are NeXTs the most cost-effective computing solution? - sites with several networked together. How much more expensive is a "reasonable" standalone system than a "reasonable" networked station? - Typically 3 or 4 times. > Sure my NeXT has a 100 meg drive, but so far all I can do >is use WriteNow. They told me it would be easy to use, but I have to >know all sorts of UNIX just to be able to do anything 'real'." What constitutes "real?" What is it about the NeXT that requires arcane knowledge... that doesn't on a PC or Mac... or is even POSSIBLE on a PC or Mac? At least you HAVE WriteNow. If you bought a PC you'd have ...? If you bought a Mac you'd have ...? >I tell you this: watch the marketing journals near you for my forthcoming >article, "The MIS-Marketing of the NeXT Computer" ... That's good. I like that. I hope NeXT does well by the MIS-fits. -=EPS=-
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (01/06/91)
In article <1094@toaster.SFSU.EDU>, eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: |> What constitutes "real?" What is it about the NeXT that requires |> arcane knowledge... that doesn't on a PC or Mac... or is even |> POSSIBLE on a PC or Mac? Right. For example, can a Mac neophyte, attempting to be helpful, post his attempts at setting up his machine, and get an nice, witty flame in response? -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
dbrenner@icon.weeg.uiowa.edu (Doug Brenner) (01/06/91)
I too have been reading the many notes from people trying to reconfigure their 105Mb slabs. I begin to wonder if the Installer program (new with OS 2.0) might prove an answer. In particular, this comment by Joe caught my eye. In article <20392.2784f527@oregon.uoregon.edu> joe@oregon.uoregon.edu writes: > This model would even lend itself to an "expert system" application > that would ask intelligent queries to help a naive user decide what > applications he should have installed, given his needs and the > available space; alternatively, a mimeod sheet showing the available > free space as-shipped and the size of each optional application would > probably also work just fine, given the loan of a calculator... [Stay with me, I tend to take the long road when traveling. Sorry.] Being lucky enough to have extra disk space on my NeXT cube, I decided to install Sybase. The documentation points you to an "Installer package" located in /NextLibrary/Packages/ThirdParty. Reading the Installer chapter (14) in the 2.0 User's Reference, I began to think back on the notes I'd seen about people trying to install such things as GCC. You see, the Installer allows you to intelligently collect related files into one "package" and then install those files into various system directories, etc. (Something like a 'make install' I would think.) Installer also lets you uninstall a package (recollect the related files into one location), load a new package from multiple floppies, or even completely delete a package from the system. Now I haven't seen the Extended Software Release on floppies yet, but just *suppose* it includes a package called GCC: You click on the GCC package and the Info panel of Installer tells you that the package takes up 4.3Mb of space, uncompressed. (You're in luck, you have that much room on your disk.) You click Install and you are prompted to start inserting floppies. Files start zooming across your disk being placed into /bin, /usr/include, etc. In no time you're compiling your "Hello, world!" program. Fact or fantasy -- I don't know. I would bet, however, that if NeXT hasn't done it, someone could. Anyone who's seen Installer in action with the Extended Edition 2.0 floppies care to comment? Doug Brenner <dbrenner@icon.weeg.uiowa.edu>
rdd@wuphys.wustl.edu (Rakhal D. Dave) (01/08/91)
I have a 105 Mb NeXT Station. I am perfectly satisfied with it as it is NOW in its stansalone state. I can NOW do real work with it. Compile C. Use Modem. Run Fortran through f2c. I even have 5 MB's of space left over. However it has taken me 20 days of work after receiving it to get it in the current state. The NeXT is a computer. If you give it networking software it will network. However to think of the 105 MB machine as a sole Networking beast with no standalone potential is a marketing flaw which needs to be corrected. the point here is not so much the size of the disk but the stuff that NeXT thinks is wise to put on it. If I remove digital Webster the 15MB I gain is more than sufficient for my local consumption. However the initial configuration is no good for the Higher ed. market. What I need and can place on a 105 MB system without even removing digital webster; 1. C compilation paraphernalia 2. f2c fortran to c translator 3. Kermit 4. TeX 5. Mathematica 2.0 (Will eventually be shipped when ready) I hope NeXT is listening Rakhal
ifjrs@acad3.alaska.edu (STANNARD JOHN R) (01/20/91)
You got it, Joe! I'm now trying to learn Unix, but for one who is not a programmer to begin with, and having no Unix-hackers within several hundred miles, I've had great frustration in trying to get my 68030 Cube (STILL waiting for the upgrade I ordered back in October!!!) even working with my modem, and with the proper setting up of files like .remote. For that matter, I have so far been unable to set the number of data bits (tip shows a cmd for parity, i.e., pa=none, but nothing for data), and the systems-help people at UACN weren't much help (I have to Mail all my questions). Oh well... p.s. My first posting--even that's confusing without a comm pgm. John