ty@springs.cis.ufl.edu (Tyng-Jing Yang) (01/20/91)
It seems that I'm not the only one who complains about NeXT Inc.
Before I say more, I have to say I love my NeXTCube ;-) though I even
try to put it on yard sale(yeh, shame on me).
The following list is the common problem/complains appeared in this newsgroup
(during last year& half) and my own opinion.
1. X
We finally (almost) have X server as a "Migration path"
(NeXT said that). It was a wrong decision not support a
"brain damage" window in the beginning.(to be humble
to its enemy, I mean).
2. Modem
People keep asking "How to connect a modem ?" again and again.
NeXT should have a chapter on "Installing Modem" in user manual.
I still don't know how to let other guys dial-in my cube.
There are two or three post on Modem's dial-in and dial-out but
I spent serveral weekend nights and still can't make it.
NeXT should clarify this problem .
3. Poor Documentation/programming books
A. "Printed NeXT Tech. Dos 1.0a"
This Docs set made me upset very much. It definitely is
the best but diffcult "for me" to read/learn from this Docs set
I'm counting on New 2.0 Docs set which is better and with
index(thanks God).
B. "The NeXT BooK" which is too old(0.9 version).
I hope the author can come out 2.0 edition.
C. "The NeXT Bible" is an introductory book. It doesn't teach me
NeXT prgramming.
D. "Object-Oriented Programming: An Evolution Approach",Brad J. Cox.
By reading this Book, I found out that there are two kind of
Object-C: StepStone's Object-C and NeXT's Object-C.
BTW, IBM's NeXTStep adopt StepStone's Object-C so here is the
problem, Which Object-C will you follow ?
E. C++ seems the right programming language to follow
but to my knowledge, no book about "C++ progamming on NeXT"
and How serious is NeXT Inc. on C++ programming ?
4. Poor Upgrade policy
I don't hwo NeXT distribute those hot 68040 CPUs. It seems most
people like s/w upgrade first.
Why not send 2.0 Extened s/w OD to those who order 2.0 upgrade.
I try to add up the money I spent on NeXT including 040 upgrade
, floppy drive. It make me feel guilty to spent such big money
and still is a NeXT user (not a NeXT programmer).
5. Qestionable Component quality
I saw posts about Dead CPU, Hard disk, Mouse problem. Well, it is
understandable for there is no perfect quality control even some of
the components(keyboard,mouse,monitor,OD driver,OD) are made by Japan.
The problem made me very unhappy is that My OD driver in NeXTcube
will died of "Sucking in too much dust" SOME DAY. This is obviously a
"wrong system design" from NeXT Inc. Extending warranty from 3 month
to 1yr doesn't solve the problem.
6. Arrogant silence in this newgroup
Frequency of NeXT's voice on comp.sys.next are countable.
7. Poor customer service
My experience of customer service from 800-NeXT or ask-next is good.
from the bookstore I bought is fair.
From the Bland is poor.
Tyng-Jing Yangjfreem@uncecs.edu (Joe Freeman) (01/21/91)
In article <TY.91Jan19194345@springs.cis.ufl.edu> ty@springs.cis.ufl.edu (Tyng-Jing Yang) writes: > >It seems that I'm not the only one who complains about NeXT Inc. >Before I say more, I have to say I love my NeXTCube ;-) though I even >try to put it on yard sale(yeh, shame on me). > >The following list is the common problem/complains appeared in this newsgroup >(during last year& half) and my own opinion. > >2. Modem > People keep asking "How to connect a modem ?" again and again. This is a problem. Most folks want to dial out. They should probably buy a third party product (like they would on a pc), such as communicae. Dial in should probably be documented better. Folks wanting to set up UUCP should probably read one of the nutshell books > >3. Poor Documentation/programming books I found the tech docs quite usefull. The concepts manual explains quite a few interesting areas. There should be a "book" on the programming subject. I know of a couple in the works. > > E. C++ seems the right programming language to follow > but to my knowledge, no book about "C++ progamming on NeXT" > and How serious is NeXT Inc. on C++ programming ? C++ is a migration tool for existing C++ programs and systems. I doubt, in the near future, you will see much emphasis on it from NeXT. Objective-C provides certain functionality that would be difficult to obtain under C++ (no C++ flames please) > >4. Poor Upgrade policy > I don't hwo NeXT distribute those hot 68040 CPUs. It seems most > people like s/w upgrade first. > Why not send 2.0 Extened s/w OD to those who order 2.0 upgrade. We are doing that. It took longer than we would have liked. > >5. Qestionable Component quality > I saw posts about Dead CPU, Hard disk, Mouse problem. Well, it is > understandable for there is no perfect quality control even some of > the components(keyboard,mouse,monitor,OD driver,OD) are made by Japan. If it is understandable then why bring it up. The number of quality posts is less than (or on the order of) competetive products. > >The problem made me very unhappy is that My OD driver in NeXTcube >will died of "Sucking in too much dust" SOME DAY. This is obviously a >"wrong system design" from NeXT Inc. Extending warranty from 3 month >to 1yr doesn't solve the problem. I have had my cube (old design) for 22 months and have not had a failure. Other people have had dust problems. Usually they can be corrected with c blast of compressed air, sometimes not. Newer machines have an optional filter fitted onto the back of the MO. Other CD/optical drives have had similar problems. > >6. Arrogant silence in this newgroup > Frequency of NeXT's voice on comp.sys.next are countable. Arrogant postings are also in this news group. What is the reward for responding? > >7. Poor customer service > My experience of customer service from 800-NeXT or ask-next is good. > from the bookstore I bought is fair. > From the Bland is poor. Problems with retail outlets should be detailed and sent to your local NeXT office. I will be happy to provide the address if you wish. NeXT cannot control all retail outlets, anymore than can any other vendor. We make strong efforts to help bring them up to speed and need constructive feedback as to the type of problems you are having at a particualr site. -- Joe Freeman jfreem@uncecs.edu jfreeman@next.com I work for NeXT but this is not an official posting from them. The opinions espressed here are my own and are not shared by my employer or
scott@mephistopheles.gac.edu (Scott Hess) (01/21/91)
In article <TY.91Jan19194345@springs.cis.ufl.edu> ty@springs.cis.ufl.edu (Tyng-Jing Yang) writes:
2. Modem
People keep asking "How to connect a modem ?" again and again.
NeXT should have a chapter on "Installing Modem" in user manual.
I still don't know how to let other guys dial-in my cube.
There are two or three post on Modem's dial-in and dial-out but
I spent serveral weekend nights and still can't make it.
NeXT should clarify this problem .
The simple fact is that connecting a modem to a Unix system in such a
manner that it can use the full flexibility of such a system is not
easy. You simply cannot do the same on a PC or a Mac without dedicating
the machine to bulletin board software. The problem is not a NeXT
problem, but a Unix problem. This is something that happens all over
Unix - the people who know can do this stuff quickly, but there
is no bootstrap documentation for people who don't know. NeXT is
trying (they've put those tech docs on the archive sites, and
some are even fairly helpful), but, unfortunately for people not
on one, I think their main thrust is towards networked machines.
_I_ think that's the right thing for now. You don't. NeXT cannot
do everything.
About connecting a modem questions - you might note that people, in
general, ask the same question again and again. That's because they
miss the first answer, or don't think it important when they see it.
Heck, I do the same thing. Because of that, there are a couple
collections of answers. One is NextAnswers, availiable at both
of the archive sites (plus much, much more.) The other are the
tech docs, also at the archives. There's a tech doc for
what you need to connect to build a serial cable. Else, you order a
cable from a company, as hardware.470 says in NextAnswers.
The SerialPortDoc gives a pretty good overview of what's going
on, though. It was enough for me to get connected, though I
don't need dial-up. The setup for dial-up is described in that
document, though. Another source would be the UUCP tech doc,
availiable in the same place.
Maybe these documents were not availiable when you checked last.
Please do check, though.
3. Poor Documentation/programming books
A. "Printed NeXT Tech. Dos 1.0a"
This Docs set made me upset very much. It definitely is
the best but diffcult "for me" to read/learn from this Docs set
I'm counting on New 2.0 Docs set which is better and with
index(thanks God).
Technical reference manuals are not for learning, they are for
reference. Few computers come with more than rudimentary tutorial
manuals, though almost all come with reference manuals.
The Concepts manual of the 1.0 tech docs made an attempt
at teaching a little bit, but even that's more of a reference
manual than anything. I personally would rather they put in more
reference material, but that would make it worse for new users.
The standard method of learning to program the NeXT well is to
go to developer's camp - I've not heard anything but good from
people who've went. Of course, that's an expensive option, which
many people can't afford. Of course, it's an expensive machine.
B. "The NeXT BooK" which is too old(0.9 version).
I hope the author can come out 2.0 edition.
C. "The NeXT Bible" is an introductory book. It doesn't teach me
NeXT prgramming.
I thought "The NeXT Book" was too old when I first saw it (and I was
still under 0.9 :-). But neither of these are NeXT's problem.
E. C++ seems the right programming language to follow
but to my knowledge, no book about "C++ progamming on NeXT"
and How serious is NeXT Inc. on C++ programming ?
I don't think it's up to NeXT. NeXT has been working with the
Free Software Foundation to integrate Objective-C into g++. Once
it's there, presumably NeXT will not be driving it anymore. It
will not be up to GNU to support it, either. Also, remember that
it's not up to NeXT to bring out books, but to informed people
outside of NeXT. NeXT should, of course, be doing their best
to help people if they need info for a book, but they aren't
a publishing house.
6. Arrogant silence in this newgroup
Frequency of NeXT's voice on comp.sys.next are countable.
If they _had_ posted people would think _that's_ arrogant.
There are problems with posting to public forums such as this that
are, to a great extent, supported by public funds. NeXT can't.
Specific people at NeXT can use this forum to address issues, but
NeXT, as a company, cannot. The Internet is for educational use
only. Of course, there are parts of Usenet which _don't_ go
over the Internet, but the Internet is the backbone of Usenet.
I don't mean to sound like I don't understand your problems. I went
through many of them, too. It's just that most other companies
I've had experience, some of them far larger than NeXT, generally
don't have anything better installed. I think reasonable complaints
are alright, and, when directed to NeXT, will have some effect.
I think frothing at the mouth will not, and this thread is quickly
approaching the frothing stage. It would be wonderful if NeXT
could pay close attention to each and every person who's ever
purchased or ordered a NeXT. But, from my experience with them
they are generally quite busy, and people are bound to slip
through the cracks.
Disclaimer: I don't work for NeXT, but I sometimes work with them
on projects. I don't have much pull there, and cannot speak for them,
any more than they can speak for me. So lay none of this at their
door.
--
scott hess scott@gac.edu
Independent NeXT Developer GAC Undergrad
<I still speak for nobody>
"Tried anarchy, once. Found it had too many constraints . . ."
"Buy `Sweat 'n wit '2 Live Crew'`, a new weight loss program by
Richard Simmons . . ."raymond@currituck.cs.unc.edu (Will Raymond) (01/21/91)
> >>(I still hope I have a job after this posting) > >If it were up to me, you'd get a commendation for >willingness to respond and listen. > >Tell Steve I said you were a good man! :-) I've met Joe several times, he's help starting Triangle User Group ( TUNG ? ). He's been very helpful and knowledgeable. His responses help settle my indecision on purchasing a cube. I hope more NeXT realizes the goodwill people like Joe engenders cannot be bought. Will ******* Will Raymond - Northern Telecom NTP in RTP | | ~ ~ | | . O o . Work: ...uucp!rti!ntpdvp1!willr | .V. | Fun: ...uucp!cs.unc.edu!raymond ._ _. | U | I speak for myself.
bennett@mp.cs.niu.edu (Scott Bennett) (01/21/91)
Before I get into it here, I'd like to thank Joe Freeman for daring to stick his head out of the foxhole a moment. I do hope he won't take this followup posting personally. It is not directed at him; on the contrary it is something I have been meaning to post for a while and this thread has now triggered it. In article <1991Jan20.214014.18419@uncecs.edu> jfreem@uncecs.edu (Joe Freeman) writes: >In article <TY.91Jan19194345@springs.cis.ufl.edu> ty@springs.cis.ufl.edu (Tyng-Jing Yang) writes: >> >>It seems that I'm not the only one who complains about NeXT Inc. >>Before I say more, I have to say I love my NeXTCube ;-) though I even >>try to put it on yard sale(yeh, shame on me). >> >>The following list is the common problem/complains appeared in this newsgroup >>(during last year& half) and my own opinion. >> >>2. Modem >> [text deleted --SJB] >>3. Poor Documentation/programming books > I found the tech docs quite usefull. The concepts manual explains > quite a few interesting areas. There should be a "book" on the > programming subject. I know of a couple in the works. In November I bought one of B'land's clearance sale machines. It arrived with a 1.0a disk and *some* of the documentation. One missing manual refered to by other documentation was called "System Reference Manual." I called the 800 number and was told that I could no longer get a copy of it, that I would have to shell out the $195 for release 2.0, and that if I really wanted that sort of documentation--and why wouldn't I if I'm a systems programmer, not a Lotus eater? ;-| --, I'd have to shell out a further $125 for the rest of the documentation. >> >> [more text deleted --SJB] >> >>4. Poor Upgrade policy >> I don't hwo NeXT distribute those hot 68040 CPUs. It seems most >> people like s/w upgrade first. >> Why not send 2.0 Extened s/w OD to those who order 2.0 upgrade. > We are doing that. It took longer than we would have liked. Well? Why *has* it taken so long? >> >> [more deleted --SJB] >> >>7. Poor customer service >> My experience of customer service from 800-NeXT or ask-next is good. >> from the bookstore I bought is fair. >> From the Bland is poor. > Problems with retail outlets should be detailed and sent to your > local NeXT office. I will be happy to provide the address if you > wish. > > NeXT cannot control all retail outlets, anymore than can any other > vendor. We make strong efforts to help bring them up to speed and > need constructive feedback as to the type of problems you are having > at a particualr site. [Flame ignites here. If you don't like flames *and* you don't work for NeXT, then press 'n' now.] My experience with Businessland began 5 November 1990 when I bought my NeXT computer. Thus far they have been reasonably helpful, but they have been hindered by their supplier. I have not dealt with Businessland regarding maintenance; my machine has sat unused since its arrival on 8 November 1990 because I have thus far been unable to obtain *any* blank optical disks onto which to copy the release 1.0a disk that came with the machine and onto which to write any other sorts of backups. Because the machine cannot be safely used without backups, it has not been used. Because it has not been used, there is no way to know whether it needs any hardware maintenance. Q.E.D. Businessland tells me they now have on backorder over 350 OD's with no sign that the orders will be filled. NeXT tells me that for the months of November and December 1990 and January 1991 Canon has allocated NeXT a total of *15* (yes, that is really fifteen, not a typo) OD's per month. If the above is true, then NeXT has made a serious error in choosing Canon's products. If Canon is doing this to NeXT, in whom they have made a $ub$tantial investment, does this signal that Canon is now writing off that investment? If so, what does that say about Canon's assessment of NeXT's future? Regarding NeXT's 800 number, I would have to say that the people answering the phones have generally been cordial, if unable to provide relief. They have indeed answered many of my questions, even though many of those answers have been quite a disappointment. (Email me for specifics if you're interested.) There is one big bone I have to pick, however. I have on more than one occasion asked for a phone number by which to call Canon to find out more about the OD shortage and to let them know of this customer's dissatisfaction. Once I was given a number for them. I called it and got some hired firm that sends out printer sales literature for Canon to people who call. The best they could do for me was give me the number of The Computer Center, a store in Rockford, Ill. that sells Canon printers among other things. The trained monkey I spoke with there gave me a phone number supposedly for Canon's printer division that was printed on some brochure in the store. He was apparently not involved in ordering from Canon and did not know any other way to contact them. I called the number he had given me and was rewarded with a recorded/computerized message saying that I had "reached an unauthorized location," whatever the hell that means! Each time I have asked the people at NeXT's 800 number to give me a phone number for Canon since that time, I have been told they don't have a number for Canon. They have not offered to go get the number from someone else at NeXT. I don't call the 800 number to be insulted. It is not within the realm of reason that NeXT should not have a phone number, mailing address, and name of a contact at Canon about their magneto-optical disks and drives. Canon is NeXT's sole supplier for these products, as well as being NeXT's largest outside investor. Given NeXT's claims that the fault for the continuing unavailability of the disks lies with Canon, then it makes no sense that NeXT would not freely give out the information on how to contact Canon along with encouragement to do so--how would Canon respond to repeated calls from hundreds of irate customers?--unless, of course, NeXT is lying about this as well. [Flame doused.] > > >-- >Joe Freeman jfreem@uncecs.edu > jfreeman@next.com >I work for NeXT but this is not an official posting from them. >The opinions espressed here are my own and are not shared by my employer or Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG Systems Programming Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Illinois 60115 ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett@cs.niu.edu * * BITNET: A01SJB1@NIU * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "WAR is the HEALTH of the STATE" --Albert Jay Nock (I think:-) * **********************************************************************
jfreem@uncecs.edu (Joe Freeman) (01/21/91)
> In November I bought one of B'land's clearance sale machines. It >arrived with a 1.0a disk and *some* of the documentation. One missing >manual refered to by other documentation was called "System Reference >Manual." I called the 800 number and was told that I could no longer >get a copy of it, that I would have to shell out the $195 for release >2.0, and that if I really wanted that sort of documentation--and why >wouldn't I if I'm a systems programmer, not a Lotus eater? ;-| --, I'd >have to shell out a further $125 for the rest of the documentation. (I like the Lotus eater comment) The manual you are missing, "System Reference Manual" is part of the programming docs. It is the manual that has all of the subroutine calls in the kit. Average users will find very little of value in it. (kind of like the unix brick section 3) For those that don't know. The additional documentation is the programmers documentation. It is the equivalent to "inside macintosh" for you former mac folks. It is NOT of much use to those people that are not trying to program the system. For those programming the system, NeXT provides docs online. The printed docs are $195? and consists of a 3 volume set. We probably could have sold it in seperate volumes, like our competitors, and hit the user up for each one. Every vendor, I can think of, sells the toolkit reference manuals seperately. (Those that know of machines otherwise can EMAIL me) The mac does. Workstations are sold with optional extended manuals. PCs come with user docs, window docs and GW basic docs. Now if the issue is that 2.0 user docs (included with the upgrade/system) are inadequate, then you need to feed that back through your campus support centers. Registered developers have their own email channel they can feed the comments back through. ... >>> Why not send 2.0 Extened s/w OD to those who order 2.0 upgrade. >> We are doing that. It took longer than we would have liked. > Well? Why *has* it taken so long? (looking around to see if anyone here is looking over my shoulder) Disk avail is the problem. (yes I have read the section below and I can't explain it) ... <very diplomatic response deleted> ... -- Joe Freeman jfreem@uncecs.edu jfreeman@next.com I work for NeXT but this is not an official posting from them. The opinions espressed here are my own and are not shared by my employer or
waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu (01/22/91)
In article <1991Jan21.134352.1524@uncecs.edu>, jfreem@uncecs.edu (Joe Freeman) writes: [...material deleted...] > > The manual you are missing, "System Reference Manual" is part of the > programming docs. It is the manual that has all of the subroutine calls > in the kit. Average users will find very little of value in it. (kind of > like the unix brick section 3) > > For those that don't know. The additional documentation is the programmers > documentation. It is the equivalent to "inside macintosh" for you former > mac folks. It is NOT of much use to those people that are not trying to > program the system. For those programming the system, NeXT provides docs > online. The printed docs are $195? and consists of a 3 volume set. [...more material deleted...] When we ordered my son's NeXTstation (through U of Maryland) these documents were not on the order form. I don't know whether I will want to order them since they are on-line but, in case I do, how do I go about it? Do I have to a registered NeXT developer? Can I order directly through NeXT? Anyone know? c.f.waltrip DDN: <waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu> Opinions expressed are my own.