farrar@Neon.Stanford.EDU (David S. Farrar) (01/30/91)
Just a bit of information for those interested in Macintosh emulation for the NeXT: The Amiga has a Macintosh emulator called AMAX which is part hardware, part software. Don't hold me to the following, but I think it requires you to buy 64K or 128K Mac ROMs; it plugs into the Amiga's floppy drive port, and gives you a Mac-floppy drive connector. Supposedly you can use the Amiga's floppies (which use IBM-similar recording formats) to store Mac data, but you need a Mac drive to read/write disks originally from a Mac (due to the Mac's multiple recording speeds). There is a new version AMAX-II, which I think supports hardrives as well. Although the Amiga multitasks (even with IBM emulation), Mac emulation takes over the machine. To make this relevant to NeXT, as an observation note that the ROM chip in AMAX is not connected to the Amiga bus at all -- just to a drive port. I suspect that it just copies the ROMs to RAM. I would speculate that if this is so, then Mac emulation could be done (in theory) entirely in software on any 68000 based machine -- including the NeXT. I'll leave the legal implications of this speculation to the lawyers. Scott Farrar...........................................farrar@neon.stanford.edu
tinyguy@cs.mcgill.ca (Yeo-Hoon BAE) (01/30/91)
In article <1991Jan29.225142.1732@Neon.Stanford.EDU> farrar@Neon.Stanford.EDU (David S. Farrar) writes: >Just a bit of information for those interested in Macintosh emulation for >the NeXT: The Amiga has a Macintosh emulator called AMAX which is part >hardware, part software. Don't hold me to the following, but I think it Correct, the hardware is a simple device which allows a Mac compatible drives to be connected, and also provides a ROM socket. >requires you to buy 64K or 128K Mac ROMs; it plugs into the Amiga's floppy Also correct, but restricted to 64/128k ROMs does mean it's only capable of emulating the B&W version of Macs. >drive port, and gives you a Mac-floppy drive connector. Supposedly you >can use the Amiga's floppies (which use IBM-similar recording formats) >to store Mac data, but you need a Mac drive to read/write disks originally Yes, it provides its own 800k format that are not recognisable by either Mac or Amiga under normal operating conditions. They do provide a transfer software through... >from a Mac (due to the Mac's multiple recording speeds). There is a new >version AMAX-II, which I think supports hardrives as well. Although the Not quite out yet. It's suppose to be an internal card for A2000 and above series, and it claims to work with normal Mac disks on a non-variable speed Amiga drives. >Amiga multitasks (even with IBM emulation), Mac emulation takes over the >machine. Yes, and hopefully, ReadySoft will cure this 'problem' soon. > >To make this relevant to NeXT, as an observation note that the ROM chip in >AMAX is not connected to the Amiga bus at all -- just to a drive port. I >suspect that it just copies the ROMs to RAM. I would speculate that if this Yes, it spends 30-40 seconds copying the ROM image from the hardware into some area in memory. >is so, then Mac emulation could be done (in theory) entirely in software >on any 68000 based machine -- including the NeXT. I'll leave the legal I think so too. Atari ST also has a version of Mac Emulator that works well, I'm sure a Mac Emulator will be availble for NeXTs. >Scott Farrar...........................................farrar@neon.stanford.edu +-----------------------------------------------------------+-------------+ | Yeo-Hoon Bae tinyguy@homer.cs.mcgill.ca | Amiga /// | | Dept. Computer Science, McGill University, Canada | 2000 /// | |-----------------------------------------------------------| \\\/// | | Amiga2000 + 5MB + 104MB HD + KX-P1124 + Mit. DiamondScan | \XX/ | +-----------------------------------------------------------+-------------+
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (01/31/91)
In article <1991Jan30.104543.4499@cs.mcgill.ca> tinyguy@cs.mcgill.ca (Yeo-Hoon BAE) writes: >In article <1991Jan29.225142.1732@Neon.Stanford.EDU> farrar@Neon.Stanford.EDU (David S. Farrar) writes: >>from a Mac (due to the Mac's multiple recording speeds). There is a new >>version AMAX-II, which I think supports hardrives as well. Although the > >Not quite out yet. It's suppose to be an internal card for A2000 and above >series, and it claims to work with normal Mac disks on a non-variable >speed Amiga drives. > AMax II has been out for a while, you're thinking of AMax II+, which is a card and has the advantages of built-in AppleTalk connector and the ability to read Mac disks in Amiga drives. AMax II is just a different set of software to go with AMax I which allows for hard drive access and better compatibility. -- Ethan How did the Computer Scientist die in the shower? He followed the instructions: 0) Lather 1) Rinse 2) Repeat He died of a heap-stack collision.
klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) (02/05/91)
I must show my disgust in that copies of "pirate" Macintosh ROMs do exist (as do pirate copies of the AMAX-II software) in the Amiga community and all over AMIGA bulletin boards across the nation, and due to the method in which the AMAX software indeed "reads ROMs into RAM," users are provided with an often seemingly "fully-functional" Macintosh. My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always a reality) bothers me... I assume that System 7.0 has "preventative measures" against such "emulators," but of course, I'm unsure. Any response to this news would be great; I'd appreciate a copy via email to klingspo@holst.cs.colostate.edu Cheers, Steve Klingsporn CS Major & Visionary "wanna-be," Colorado State University
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/05/91)
In article <12538@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) writes: > >I must show my disgust in that copies of "pirate" Macintosh ROMs do >exist (as do pirate copies of the AMAX-II software) in the Amiga >community and all over AMIGA bulletin boards across the nation, and >due to the method in which the AMAX software indeed "reads ROMs into >RAM," users are provided with an often seemingly "fully-functional" >Macintosh. > This is hardly specific to the Amiga. People pirate on every machine. Copying of that pirate version of AMax II is illegal both to Apple and to Readysoft, the emulator maker. >My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often >do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that >Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to >have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always >a reality) bothers me... > Well, since you say "read Toy" without a smiley you're a closed-minded idi*t. Not the Amiga is a god-send, but the opposite position is just as stupid. I'm open to corrections. Ignoring that, the legality is a big issue. Assuming the user bought the ROM like he was supposed to, from his position he owns the ROM and has a right to use it. The emulator works by reading the ROMs, copying them into RAM, making a few patches and running the code. The catch comes with the System Software. It says in the license that the OS can't be used on an emulator without permission in writing, and there is no chance of getting that. However, shrink-wrap licensing's validity is in question and there is no official decision by the courts. In other words, this is grey-area. The problem from Apple's perspective is that it isn't the AMax people's crime. It is the users crime for loading the OS into an emulator. And then Apple would have to sue every user individually, which would be ridiculous. Also, it is possible to call the Amiga a Mac and not an emulator because it is using Mac coding, not a rewritten equivalent. Anyway, Apple doesn't want to give the Amiga any unnecessary coverage. >I assume that System 7.0 has "preventative measures" against such >"emulators," but of course, I'm unsure. > So am I. >Any response to this news would be great; I'd appreciate a copy >via email to klingspo@holst.cs.colostate.edu > > >Cheers, > >Steve Klingsporn >CS Major & Visionary "wanna-be," >Colorado State University -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
iho@cac.washington.edu (Il Oh) (02/05/91)
klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) writes: >My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often >do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that >Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to >have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always >a reality) bothers me... I'd like to correct at least half of that statement. The Macintosh emulator on the Atari ST, Spectre GCR, will now work with a copied EPROM. The manufacturer/programmer, Dave Small, programmed it that way. He wouldn't divulge the method used as that might allow people to bypass it, but it won't work with bootleg PROMs. Additionally, it seems to be at least as compatible as most of the Mac II's in existance. -- "And now, adding color | Il Hwan Oh a group of anonymous, Latin-American | University of Washington, Tacoma meat-packing glitterati" | iho@cac.washington.edu -- Pink Floyd, Final Cut |
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (02/05/91)
In article <12538@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) writes: > >I must show my disgust in that copies of "pirate" Macintosh ROMs do >exist (as do pirate copies of the AMAX-II software) in the Amiga >community and all over AMIGA bulletin boards across the nation, I have had AMax since it first came out. I purchased the ROMs legally from an Apple ROM distributer, and I have been active in many discussions concerning this emulator for the past two years. I had heard that some versions of AMax were indeed pirated, but it is not nearly as epidemic as you make it out to be. Most AMax users, and everyone who I've SEEN use AMax, use the 128K Apple ROMs, purchased entirely legally. There are major problems with not using the actual ROMs, including not being able to read actual Mac-formatted disks. The ROM cartridge is required for this. >and due to the method in which the AMAX software indeed "reads ROMs into >RAM," users are provided with an often seemingly "fully-functional" >Macintosh. Seemingly? Where do you get this? My version of AMax-II runs every Mac program I use at work, and I'm a Mac consultant. >My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often >do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that >Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to >have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always >a reality) bothers me... Hm. I hadn't realized that this was comp.sys.mac.advocacy... Hang on... Nope. It's not. Then I must take offense at this posting. My Amiga is as far from being a "toy" as the NeXT is from being obsolete. It's apparent that you haven't seen a 3000UX. >I assume that System 7.0 has "preventative measures" against such >"emulators," but of course, I'm unsure. AMax-II Plus is a card for the 2000-3000 series, and I hear that expectations are rather high that it will be fine while running system 7. >Any response to this news would be great; I'd appreciate a copy >via email to klingspo@holst.cs.colostate.edu Indeed, to tie this to the NeXT, I would be ecstatic if a ROM- or software- based Mac emulator were to appear on the NeXT. The Mac OS is bad enough that we must endure it to be tied to an architecture as archaic as the Macintosh. >Cheers, > >Steve Klingsporn >CS Major & Visionary "wanna-be," >Colorado State University Dave Hopper | /// The Amiga: | The great strength of the total- | __ /// | itarian state is that it forces bard@jessica. | \\\/// The Cybernetic | those who fear it to imitate it. Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Revolution is NOW! | --Adolph Hitler
asmith@questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Adam Smith) (02/05/91)
> >My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often > >do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that > >Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to > >have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always > >a reality) bothers me... > > > Well, since you say "read Toy" without a smiley you're a > closed-minded idi*t. Not the Amiga is a god-send, but the > opposite position is just as stupid. I'm open to corrections. I agree. Talk like that belongs in alt.flame, where you will be happily roasted until you are crispy brown and then smothered in a tasty sauce. Remember it. adam p.s. At what point will Mac-snobbery finally go out of style? --- Adam Smith ########################################################################## asmith@questor.wimsey.bc.ca The Chameleon Papers - Vancouver, BC CANADA Graphic Artist - Bad Mood Guy -> REFUSE TO FIGHT! "Just when you thought it was safe to admit you're a human being..." ##########################################################################
mikec@vs02wor.umd.edu (Michael D. Callaghan) (02/05/91)
In article <12538@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) writes: > >I must show my disgust in that copies of "pirate" Macintosh ROMs do >exist (as do pirate copies of the AMAX-II software) in the Amiga >community and all over AMIGA bulletin boards across the nation, and >due to the method in which the AMAX software indeed "reads ROMs into >RAM," users are provided with an often seemingly "fully-functional" >Macintosh. > >My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often >do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that >Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to >have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always >a reality) bothers me... > I don't want to start a mess here, this being a NeXT group. I just want to mention that when I had my Atari ST, I had to go to an Apple Dealer and buy Apple ROMs. Apple, to this day, makes no fuss over this. MikeC -- _________________________________________________________ Michael D. Callaghan, MDC Designs, University of Maryland mikec@wam.umd.edu
jackb@MDI.COM (Jack Brindle) (02/06/91)
In article <Du0Vw1w164w@questor.wimsey.bc.ca> asmith@questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Adam Smith) writes: >At what point will Mac-snobbery finally go out of style? >--- > Adam Smith The day after the PC "lovers" decide that the Mac is here to stay and quit putting us down for using the Mac. We should all realize that the choice of computing system should be based on the task it is needed for. In many cases this is a PC, or a Sun, or Next, or whatever. For my use it is generally a Mac (although I type this on a Sparcstation...). Unfortunately, since the Mac was introduced (I got my 128K in Feb of 1984) the "other guys" have been taking cheap shots. After a while you get tired of it and strike back. Is this snobbery? And on whose part? I chose Mac because I like the machine. It has a good OS, and a great user interface. I enjoy developing software on it. I don't enjoy developing software on a PC. Need I say more? Flames to /dev/null. - Jack Brindle, WA4FIB.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/06/91)
In article <1991Feb5.200753.12357@MDI.COM> jackb@MDI.COM (Jack Brindle) writes: >In article <Du0Vw1w164w@questor.wimsey.bc.ca> asmith@questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Adam Smith) writes: >>At what point will Mac-snobbery finally go out of style? >>--- >> Adam Smith > >The day after the PC "lovers" decide that the Mac is here to stay and quit >putting us down for using the Mac. We should all realize that the choice of >computing system should be based on the task it is needed for. In many cases >this is a PC, or a Sun, or Next, or whatever. For my use it is generally a >Mac (although I type this on a Sparcstation...). Unfortunately, since the >Mac was introduced (I got my 128K in Feb of 1984) the "other guys" have been >taking cheap shots. After a while you get tired of it and strike back. > >Is this snobbery? And on whose part? > The person who said "Amiga (read TOY)" was being snobbish. That is what is generally defined as cheap shot, or stating a controversial opinion without giving any reasoning. Trust me, being an Amiga owner we've been dealing with it for quite a while. It seems to be human nature, for people to join one group and attack all others. When will it go out of style? Never. >I chose Mac because I like the machine. It has a good OS, and a great user >interface. I enjoy developing software on it. I don't enjoy developing >software on a PC. Need I say more? > That's the right answer. Not "read Toy". Similar insults can be said about every computer, including the Mac. >Flames to /dev/null. > >- Jack Brindle, WA4FIB. -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
6600dadg@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Mark Dadgar) (02/06/91)
In article <Du0Vw1w164w@questor.wimsey.bc.ca> asmith@questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Adam Smith) writes: >p.s. >At what point will Mac-snobbery finally go out of style? When the Mac does, too. :) <-- see? smiley! >--- > Adam Smith +-------------------+---------------------------+------------------+ | Mark Dadgar | 6600dadg@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu | Bill & Opus -'92 | +-------------------+---------------------------+------------------+ | From the dolequeue to the regiment a profession in a flash, | | But remember Monday signings when from door to door you dash. | | On the news a nation mourns you unknown soldier count the cost. | | For a second you'll be famous but labelled posthumous. | | Forgotten Sons. Forgotten Sons. | | - Marillion, 1983 | +----------Would UCSB write anything this intelligent?-------------+ > ########################################################################## > asmith@questor.wimsey.bc.ca The Chameleon Papers - Vancouver, BC CANADA > Graphic Artist - Bad Mood Guy -> REFUSE TO FIGHT! > "Just when you thought it was safe to admit you're a human being..." > ##########################################################################
gaynor@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jim Gaynor) (02/07/91)
In article <15809@milton.u.washington.edu> iho@akbar.UUCP (Il Oh) writes: >klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) writes: > >>My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often >>do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that >>Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to >>have in reality a "free Macintosh" (though compatibility is not always >>a reality) bothers me... > >I'd like to correct at least half of that statement. The Macintosh >emulator on the Atari ST, Spectre GCR, will now work with a copied >EPROM. Just another tidbit of information that I haven't seen in this discussion yet... There exist, for both the Atari Mac Emulator and the Amiga Mac Emulator, pirate-modified versions that read the ROM code from disk. In other words, they've dumped the ROM to a disk file, and use -that-, as opposed to the actual ROM chips. -- Jim Gaynor - Systems Analyst 1 + "This is Serious. He is Lost. The Ohio State University ACS-FM-OCES | We must begin the Search at once." gaynor@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.ed | -Rabbit, from gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu + "The House at Pooh Corner"
jeremym@brahms.udel.edu (Jeremy A Moskowitz) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb6.175526.11323@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> gaynor@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jim Gaynor) writes: > There exist, for both the Atari Mac Emulator and the Amiga Mac >Emulator, pirate-modified versions that read the ROM code from disk. >In other words, they've dumped the ROM to a disk file, and use -that-, >as opposed to the actual ROM chips. Yes, yes yes.... it's true that they DO exist. I should know, I've seen them in action... Besides which there are some serious limitations of not BUYING the Amax hardware. AMAX works as such... it has two formats of reading disks. The first is done with the AMAX hardware and the ROMS and an APPLE MAC drive.. With this setup, you can read, write, move, etc, etc everything Mac.. It's great.. The other format, is as such. Once a MAC program is in memory, it can be written into AMAX format. that is, which MACINTOSH programs WORK SOELY in AMIGA drives. ie: Mac program, written in AMAX format... Get it? Without the hardware, the reading of a disk right out of a genuine mac is impossible. If you have the hacked-in AMAX version, you cannot use Macintosh disks hot outta the mac... they have to be converted - either by uploading and downloading them, of by null modem - both, which must be time consuming and the like... They *DO* exist, granted.. but the thing to remember is *COMPATIBILITY*.. THE COMPATIBILITY factor without the hardware and roms is limited, because you cant for instance, write a program on AMAX and give the disk to your MacinBuddy... It wont happen. It has to be converted, etc etc - and I dont think too many people will actually go thru the trouble of converting stuff thru modem or cable EACH TIME They wish to yap with a real mac... it's a pain in the butt. If you have any questions about AMAX, i'd be glad to answer them to clear this up... Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations -jeremy > gaynor@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.ed | -Rabbit, from > gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu + "The House at Pooh Corner" -- E Pluribus // Contacts: jeremym@brahms.udel.edu or jeremym@chopin.udel.edu or Unix // jeremy@freezer.it.udel.edu (line 1 = jeremym) \\ // --->Monitor of comp.sys.amiga.emulations<--- \X/ 2001 Dalmations - My stars, its full of dogs...
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew W. Pierce) (02/08/91)
In article <12538@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, klingspo@holst.tmc.edu (steve klingsporn) writes: > > I must show my disgust in that copies of "pirate" Macintosh ROMs do > exist (as do pirate copies of the AMAX-II software) in the Amiga > community and all over AMIGA bulletin boards across the nation, and > due to the method in which the AMAX software indeed "reads ROMs into > RAM," users are provided with an often seemingly "fully-functional" > Macintosh. > > My question is this: Legal? I worked for Apple for 2 years and often > do back in Chicago when I'm not at school. Obviously the fact that > Amiga (read "Toy") users are so "lucky" (as are ATARI-ST users) to > > > Cheers, > > Steve Klingsporn > CS Major & Visionary "wanna-be," > Colorado State University First of all, I have not seen one pirate of the Macintosh ROMs on any bulletin board in Spokane (second largest city in Washington state) nor have I seen one pirate copy of AMAX-II. Second of all, where is your justification in calling the Amiga a toy? Tell me, I want to know how my performing class programming assignments, producing documents, producing applications, playing an occasional game, along with my wife's production of professional artwork and documents describes my Amiga as a toy. Being a CS major, you SHOULD now that there is no one computer for all jobs, and that even though one computer has an edge over another computer in one area, the same computer is more than likely inferior to the other in another area. I know that this does not belong here, but I am an Amiga owner and a NeXT user that enjoys this area of the net, but get quite annoyed by persons who make the ignorant statements like the one above by Mr. Klingsporn. Just my 2 cents worth Mathew Pierce
drin@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Adrian Smith) (02/10/91)
> AMAX is not connected to the Amiga bus at all -- just to a drive port. I > suspect that it just copies the ROMs to RAM. I would speculate that if this > is so, then Mac emulation could be done (in theory) entirely in software > on any 68000 based machine -- including the NeXT. I'll leave the legal > implications of this speculation to the lawyers. > Actually, I've seen a version of the Amax (and Amax-II) that have been slightly "modified" so that the ROMs are no longer needed. The entire ROM is loaded from floppy on bootup, and then the executing code is told where to look...it actually works!!