lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) (02/07/91)
I just got this via e-mail as part of a mailing sent to lots of people from Ronald_Weissman@next.com... It really bothers me... I think it will bother you too... Too bad they did not have a lengthy discussion with their customers. ISO KEYBOARDS - JUST SAY NO!!! Bring back the "Classic Keyboard"! pasc V. QUESTIONS ABOUT NeXT The NeXT keyboard As you may know, NeXT changed its keyboard when we began shipping the NeXTstation and the '040-based NeXTcube. As NeXT has grown and expanded distribution channels, it's become important that we be able to ship our systems to Europe and other parts of the world. In Europe, there are much more stringent ISO standards for keyboard layouts. Our original keyboard did not meet those standards. One of the key requirements was that the return key had to be "L" shaped. To accomplish this, one of the keys had to be removed and the key codes remapped. In lengthy discussions with our engineers and our European and Asian teams, the new key layout was approved. During this transition period, you may recommend to the UNIX folk that they remap their keyboard. In the developer directory, there is an application called Keyboard which allows anyone to remap the keyboard.
jacob@gore.com (Jacob Gore) (02/07/91)
/ comp.sys.next / lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) / Feb 6'91 / > During this transition period, you may recommend to the UNIX folk that > they remap their keyboard. In the developer directory, there is an > application called Keyboard which allows anyone to remap the keyboard. OK... two questions: 1. Period of transition to what? Something other than Unix? A Unix that doesn't use "\", "|" and "Control-\"? A language other than C, Objective-C and C++? An ISO standard that allows a "-" shaped Return key? 2. How do I remap the "\,|" key to the top 1/3 of the Return key? > One of the key [ISO] requirements was that the return key had to be "L" > shaped. To accomplish this, one of the keys had to be removed and the > key codes remapped. Or the keyboard could be made a centimeter wider, allowing the Return key to be L shaped, leaving the "|,\" key on the main keyboard, and making room for the "`,~" key on the main keyboard. (Maybe a Backspace key, though I don't miss it myself.) Or you can have two keyboard options. Or you can sell one keyboard in Europe, and another in North America. Or you can have people stop buying your machines in North America. Fortunately, I have old keyboards on the machines where I do most of my work. But one of them has the new keyboard, and it pisses me off no end! As far as I'm concerned, NeXT is shipping defective systems. Jacob -- Jacob Gore Jacob@Gore.Com boulder!gore!jacob
coco@cbnewsl.att.com (felix.a.lugo) (02/08/91)
In article <5137@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: | | ISO KEYBOARDS - JUST SAY NO!!! | Bring back the "Classic Keyboard"! | | pasc | | V. QUESTIONS ABOUT NeXT | | The NeXT keyboard | | As you may know, NeXT changed its keyboard when we began shipping the | NeXTstation and the '040-based NeXTcube. As NeXT has grown and | expanded distribution channels, it's become important that we be able | to ship our systems to Europe and other parts of the world. In | Europe, there are much more stringent ISO standards for keyboard | layouts. Our original keyboard did not meet those standards. | | One of the key requirements was that the return key had to be "L" | shaped. To accomplish this, one of the keys had to be removed and the | key codes remapped. In lengthy discussions with our engineers and our | European and Asian teams, the new key layout was approved. | | During this transition period, you may recommend to the UNIX folk that | they remap their keyboard. In the developer directory, there is an | application called Keyboard which allows anyone to remap the keyboard. You mean that the European and Asian markets dictate US market needs? What happened to NeXT engineers? If they were going to re-design the keyboard, why didn't they just add more keys to it, or followed some of the already existing keyboards standards around. From the last paragraph, it appears that NeXT doesn't intend to REVERT to the old layout! NeXT! A UNIX workstation for non-UNIX users !!!! 8^) To NeXT: In the future, why don't you request, through this newsgroup or through the registered developers program, what impact a re-design of certain components have on the already existing NeXT community. You'll be amazed at how helpful this group can be! /* ** ============================================================================ ** ** Felix A. Lugo AT&T Bell Laboratories ** ** E-Mail: ** (708) 713-4374 coco@ihlpb.att.com att!ihlpb!coco ** ** NeXT-Mail: ** (708) 515-0668 coco@alien.att.com alien.att.com!bootsie!coco ** ** ============================================================================ */
waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu (02/08/91)
In article <5137@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>, lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: [...stuff deleted in which poster laments the advent of the new keyboards and stuff from NeXT explaining that the new keyboard had to be ISO compliant...] > One of the key requirements was that the return key had to be "L" > shaped. To accomplish this, one of the keys had to be removed and the > key codes remapped. In lengthy discussions with our engineers and our > European and Asian teams, the new key layout was approved. I'm typing this from a VAXstation 3100 which has a keyboard which I believe is ANSI compliant...isn't it also ISO compliant? If it is ISO compliant, it takes a different approach than the new NeXT keyboard. It has a return key in the shape of a backwards, inverted ell. This leaves room for the "|\" key nestled right there in the crook of the return key. Now I haven't received the NeXTstation I have on order and so I don't want to cry before I'm hurt, but I am suggesting that maybe there is an approach to this keyboard issue that could make users happy while still complying with standards (a very good thing in its own right and much to be encouraged). As I believe Pascal suggested in his post, we might all have worked together on this one...maybe we still could? [...more stuff deleted...] c.f.waltrip Internet: <waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu> Opinions expressed are my own.
ne201ph@prism.gatech.EDU (Halvorson,Peter J) (02/08/91)
I've heard that the production line at the next factory is amazing, are
the keyboards made on site? Can't they switch on a minutes notice from
making one keyboard to another?
--
Peter Halvorson -- Nuclear Engineering Program
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!ne201ph
Internet: ne201ph@prism.gatech.edu -- peter@fission.gatech.edudatran2 (02/08/91)
In article <5137@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: > >ISO KEYBOARDS - JUST SAY NO!!! >Bring back the "Classic Keyboard"! I have refrained so far from this discussion, because I still haven't gotten over my ill will toward a design philosophy that would forget to include a PageUp PageDown, Home, and End key. Not to mention the tilda being "way over there". But I do think we ought to speak up and tell NeXT that they are moving _away_ from what we would like to see rather than towards some ideal held by a large number of people. Lets hear it for a rational keyboard! Stop taking away keys! This is, IMHO, the only major wart on an otherwise beautiful visage. The mouse is a little clunky, but useable. But I spend 8 to 10 hours a day at one keyboard or another. Adding this one to my repetoir of non-standards is just a matter of time and patience. But why is there this minimalist keyboard philosophy? Are you afraid that the keyboard might be two complex for me if there were a few more keys? Or is it that someone wants to force dependence on the mouse. Remember, this is a computer from the man who brought us the Mac without arrow keys. Very pure, but who is he fooling? It is already too late to have a standard interface design where all applications respond in a consistant way to PageUp and PageDown. Too bad. But don't make it worse than it already is. Some of us have to program with these suckers. Love the machine, hate the keyboard, steve. -- #====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====# # Steve Boker # "Badgers, we don't have no stinking badgers" # # datran2!smb@csn.org # -from Treasure of the Sierra Madre Zoo # #====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#
6600dadg@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Mark Dadgar) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb7.130858.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes: > to be encouraged). As I believe Pascal suggested in his post, we might > all have worked together on this one...maybe we still could? I thought Pascal said he painted his Cube hot pink? Oops, wrong thread! :) +-------------------+---------------------------+------------------+ | Mark Dadgar | 6600dadg@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu | Bill & Opus -'92 | +-------------------+---------------------------+------------------+ | From the dolequeue to the regiment a profession in a flash, | | But remember Monday signings when from door to door you dash. | | On the news a nation mourns you unknown soldier count the cost. | | For a second you'll be famous but labelled posthumous. | | Forgotten Sons. Forgotten Sons. | | - Marillion, 1983 | +----------Would UCSB write anything this intelligent?-------------+
davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) (02/08/91)
One of the key requirements was that the return key had to be "L" shaped. To accomplish this, one of the keys had to be removed and the key codes remapped. In lengthy discussions with our engineers and our European and Asian teams, the new key layout was approved. During this transition period, you may recommend to the UNIX folk that they remap their keyboard. In the developer directory, there is an application called Keyboard which allows anyone to remap the keyboard. Anyone tried this? It doesn't work. (2.0) This "explanation" has the same qualities of truth and honesty as NeXT's "explanation" of taking your money on October 5 and never officially talking to you again. And, if you use the puked-up excuse for a network database called NetInfo you will spend a lot of time playing with that far-off "|" key to fix things NetInfoMangler throughly damages. I am *not* pleased with the new machines in any way, shape, or form and (at least now) wish I had never seen one. And I bought one for home! (At least NetNonInfo can't screw up...too much...on a single non-networked machine. Maybe.) dan -- dr. dan davison/dept. of biochemical and biophysical sciences/univ. of Houston/4800 Calhoun/Houston,TX 77054-5500/davison@uh.edu/DAVISON@UHOU Disclaimer: As always, I speak only for myself, and, usually, only to myself.
anderson@dogie.macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb8.050647.19715@menudo.uh.edu> davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) writes: >I am *not* pleased with the new machines in any way, shape, or form >and (at least now) wish I had never seen one. >Disclaimer: As always, I speak only for myself, and, usually, only to >myself. Not too surprising, really. <> The advice of their elders to young men is very apt to be <> as unreal as a list of the hundred best books. <> -- Dr. Oliver Wendell Holmes -- Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) (02/08/91)
In article <5137@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: >ISO KEYBOARDS - JUST SAY NO!!! >Bring back the "Classic Keyboard"! > >One of the key requirements was that the return key had to be "L" >shaped. To accomplish this, one of the keys had to be removed and the >key codes remapped. In lengthy discussions with our engineers and our >European and Asian teams, the new key layout was approved. I understand that NeXT, if they want especially government and large corporate orders, has to comply with the ISO standards. What you sould know is that in Europe even trade unions have their **** in such things. It would be probably discriminating and unhuman for a secretary to need a day to get used to a new keyboard.... Now for the constructive part: I still think NeXT should leave the keyboard as it was. The old keyboard is the best thing I have ever used. I type at least 15-20% faster on it than on anything else. Now if you just made the key removable and depending on whether you put on a single L-shaped or two regular key caps on the two switches you can have either the old or the new keyboard. In the keyboard program you then only need to mark the lost key as invalid if you use the L-shaped key cap. This should be possible. e.g. Toshiba delivers its laptops with additional key caps, thus you can have a US, German, French or whatsoever keyboard when you use your laptop while travelling and want to change the layout with each border you cross :) Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@browncog.bitnet
chouw@buster.cps.msu.edu (Wen Hwa Chou) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb7.230938.21374@csn.org!datran2> smb@csn.org!datran2 writes: >In article <5137@media-lab.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: >> >>ISO KEYBOARDS - JUST SAY NO!!! >>Bring back the "Classic Keyboard"! > >I have refrained so far from this discussion, because I still haven't >gotten over my ill will toward a design philosophy that would forget to >include a PageUp PageDown, Home, and End key. Not to mention the tilda >being "way over there". But I do think we ought to speak up and tell >NeXT that they are moving _away_ from what we would like to see rather >than towards some ideal held by a large number of people. Whenever I am working on the Slab, I miss my gigantic stupid PC/AT keyboard so much that I keep looking for PgUp PgDn Home End keys (Not to metion | \ and ~.) Hope there is some way that I can connect a cheap PC/AT keyboard to the Slab.
tvz@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Timothy Van Zandt) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb8.050647.19715@menudo.uh.edu> davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) writes: > >> During this transition period, you may recommend to the UNIX folk that >> they remap their keyboard. In the developer directory, there is an >> application called Keyboard which allows anyone to remap the keyboard. > >Anyone tried this? It doesn't work. (2.0) > The Keyboard demo works fine for me. What it doesn't do you can do by editing the keymapping files directly (the format is mildly intelligible). (See, for example, <10839@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> by carlton@aldebaran.berkeley.edu. on remapping SPACE-DEL). The problem is that there aren't many other keys to spare. I don't like to use alt keys because I prefer to use the alt key as the meta key, and besides, the alt key takes longer to get to than, say the shift or control key. So I have mapped \ to ^], ` to ^[, ~ to ^-, and | to SHIFT-DEL. Remapping control keys is not so popular, but I still have the original values of these control keys as SHIFT-CTRL- , and I never use them anyway. The backspace usually generated by SHIFT-DEL is available as ^h. Unfortunately, you cannot assign values to ^; ^' ^, ^. or ^/ .
shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) (02/09/91)
lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: >As you may know, NeXT changed its keyboard when we began shipping the >NeXTstation and the '040-based NeXTcube. As NeXT has grown and >expanded distribution channels, it's become important that we be able >to ship our systems to Europe and other parts of the world. In >Europe, there are much more stringent ISO standards for keyboard >layouts. Our original keyboard did not meet those standards. Well, other companies seem capable of tailoring their offerings to the needs of the market. "One size fits all" has no place in the computer business. Perhaps people should write to Northgate (which makes one of the better PC keyboards) and ask them to develop one for the NeXT. ----------- uunet!media!ka3ovk!raysnec!shwake shwake@rsxtech
matthews@lewhoosh.umd.edu (Mike Matthews) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb8.050647.19715@menudo.uh.edu> davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) writes: >This "explanation" has the same qualities of truth and honesty as >NeXT's "explanation" of taking your money on October 5 and never >officially talking to you again. This post seems like it's another blind flame. >And, if you use the puked-up excuse for a network database called >NetInfo you will spend a lot of time playing with that far-off "|" >key to fix things NetInfoMangler throughly damages. Let's try to keep things rational, eh? NetInfo has YET to mess up MY machine, and YOU are the only one who has complained, so I would conclude that YOU screwed up somehow. Unix boxes aren't toys. You mess up, they mess up. >I am *not* pleased with the new machines in any way, shape, or form >and (at least now) wish I had never seen one. And I bought one for >home! (At least NetNonInfo can't screw up...too much...on a single >non-networked machine. Maybe.) That is certainly your opinion and you are definitely entitled to it, however you would be best off selling your NeXTstation rather than flaming the net. I am not too pleased with NeXT's performance in shipping my machine. I am not too pleased with the local computer store where I bought it from. I also understand that NeXT is a relatively small operation so patience is due. And the world doesn't owe me everything so I don't expect everything in wrapping paper. >dan ------ Mike Matthews, matthews@lewhoosh.umd.edu (NeXT)/matthews@umdd (bitnet) ------ "There are a lot of lies going around.... and half of them are true." - Winston Churchill
mrc@milton.u.washington.edu (Mark Crispin) (02/11/91)
In article <130153@gore.com> jacob@gore.com (Jacob Gore) writes: >1. Period of transition to what? Something other than Unix? My understanding is that NeXT intends to de-emphasize Unix to the point of obliteration; consequently the need to regularly use characters such as \ or | will become a non-issue. You have to judge for yourself whether or not this is desirable or not. I've used enough bletcherous keyboards that I suspect I could get used to just about anything.
andy@cs.caltech.edu (Andy Fyfe) (02/11/91)
In article <16199@milton.u.washington.edu> mrc@milton.u.washington.edu (Mark Crispin) writes: >My understanding is that NeXT intends to de-emphasize Unix to the >point of obliteration; consequently the need to regularly use >characters such as \ or | will become a non-issue. TeX users will regularly use \. And the NeXT is, otherwise, a good platform for TeX. Andy Fyfe andy@cs.caltech.edu
kjell@saturn.ucsc.edu (Kjell Post) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb11.085554.12978@nntp-server.caltech.edu> andy@cs.caltech.edu writes: >TeX users will regularly use \. And the NeXT is, otherwise, a good >platform for TeX. Another solution might be to connect a "real" keyboard to the serial port. Has anyone tried this? (I'm still waiting for my NeXT...) -- For athletes and programmers, ! Kjell E. Post a woman is the end of their career. ! CIS/CE ! University of California, Santa Cruz -- A.Wickberg ! Email: kjell@saturn.ucsc.edu
wgilbert@watmath.waterloo.edu (William Gilbert) (02/11/91)
In article <16199@milton.u.washington.edu> mrc@milton.u.washington.edu (Mark Crispin) writes: >My understanding is that NeXT intends to de-emphasize Unix to the >point of obliteration; consequently the need to regularly use >characters such as \ or | will become a non-issue. TeX and LaTeX make heavy use of the \ so I would certainly want that key in the main key area. Are there any standards or proposed standards about the placement of non-alphanumeric keys? Its very annoying in going from one keyboard to another.
garnett@cs.utexas.edu (John William Garnett) (02/11/91)
In article <240@raysnec.UUCP> shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) writes: >lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) writes: >>As you may know, NeXT changed its keyboard when we began shipping the >>NeXTstation and the '040-based NeXTcube. As NeXT has grown and >>expanded distribution channels, it's become important that we be able >>to ship our systems to Europe and other parts of the world. In >>Europe, there are much more stringent ISO standards for keyboard >>layouts. Our original keyboard did not meet those standards. > Well, other companies seem capable of tailoring their offerings >to the needs of the market. "One size fits all" has no place in the >computer business. Perhaps people should write to Northgate (which makes >one of the better PC keyboards) and ask them to develop one for the NeXT. Short of actually convincing NeXT to change, or provide an alternative to their new "improved" keyboard, this is one of the better suggestions I've seen. Can someone provide an appropriate Northgate email or snailmail address for making such a suggestion? If Northgate receives enough requests (and judging from peoples' stated opinions regarding the new keyboards... they WILL), perhaps something could actually come of this idea. However, before initiating such a letter writing campaign, it would probably be a good idea if people could come consensus as to WHAT to request. I propose that Northgate manufacture two NeXT keyboards. One essentially identical to the original NeXT keyboard (if this can be legally accomplished) and another one incorporating all of their better ideas they use in making PC keyboards. And of course, both must be black. Now who has ideas for a third-party manufacturer of improved mice that will work with the NeXT? (no smiley) NeXT owners can already buy third party memory, hard disks, floppy disks, displays (using the color/sound box), modems, etc. Why not mice and keyboards? -- John Garnett University of Texas at Austin garnett@cs.utexas.edu Department of Computer Science Austin, Texas
ddj@zardoz.club.cc.cmu.edu (Doug DeJulio) (02/12/91)
In article <1080@tokio.cs.utexas.edu> garnett@cs.utexas.edu (John William Garnett) writes: >Now who has ideas for a third-party manufacturer of improved mice that >will work with the NeXT? (no smiley) How about Logitech? I understand that they currently make mice, track-balls, and handheld scanners among other things. If they could be persuaded to include the NeXT machine in the list of machines they support, we stand to gain a good bit. I'm toying with the idea of trying to get a Logitech three-button PC serial mouse working on serial port B. First I'm going to try to install a Koala pad. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.club.cc.cmu.edu (NeXT) dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (AMS/ATK)
davison@menudo.uh.edu (Dan Davison) (02/12/91)
In article <8007@umd5.umd.edu> matthews@lewhoosh.umd.edu (Mike Matthews) writes: > > >And, if you use the puked-up excuse for a network database called > >NetInfo you will spend a lot of time playing with that far-off "|" > >key to fix things NetInfoMangler throughly damages. > > Let's try to keep things rational, eh? NetInfo has YET to mess up MY > machine, and YOU are the only one who has complained, so I would conclude > that YOU screwed up somehow. > > Unix boxes aren't toys. You mess up, they mess up. Then you will undoubtedly be startled to find out that *NeXT* (not me, NeXT Tech Support) can't find anything wrong with the setup and suspect a bug in NetInfoMangler in release 1.0. It's very hard to mess up when the software doesn't work right to begin with. On the other hand, there is another group here at UH that has *not* had this problem...but they are running 2.0 all around. dan -- dr. dan davison/dept. of biochemical and biophysical sciences/univ. of Houston/4800 Calhoun/Houston,TX 77054-5500/davison@uh.edu/DAVISON@UHOU Disclaimer: As always, I speak only for myself, and, usually, only to myself.
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb7.130858.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes: > I'm typing this from a VAXstation 3100 which has a keyboard which I > believe is ANSI compliant...isn't it also ISO compliant? If it is > ISO compliant, it takes a different approach than the new NeXT > keyboard. It has a return key in the shape of a backwards, inverted > ell. The dreaded Sun Type 4 keyboard is like that too. All we have to do is remap the Power key. :-) It serves no useful function when the machine's turned on. -=EPS=-