izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (03/09/91)
In article <SIMMONS.91Mar8220144@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >.... but there is no Interface Builder documentation at >all with the 2.0 Extended release! This makes IB useless to me. What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. That's strange, there was /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/DevTools/02_InterfaceBuilder/* on 2.0beta (Fuchsia), and it's only 1.7MB. Why did they remove THE most critical doc for programming on NeXT? The NeXT on-line documentation is not easy to follow, esp. because File Viewer and Browsers alphabetize files. Hopefully, printed 2.0 docs are better organized. -- Izumi Ohzawa [ $@Bg_78^=;(J ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (415) 642-6440 Fax: (415) 642-3323 Internet: izumi@violet.berkeley.edu NeXTmail: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu
tenny@ootool.dec.com (Dave Tenny) (03/10/91)
In article <1991Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu>, izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes... >In article <SIMMONS.91Mar8220144@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> > simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >>.... but there is no Interface Builder documentation at >>all with the 2.0 Extended release! This makes IB useless to me. > >What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. >That's strange, there was >/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/DevTools/02_InterfaceBuilder/* >on 2.0beta (Fuchsia), and it's only 1.7MB. >Why did they remove THE most critical doc for programming on NeXT? > >The NeXT on-line documentation is not easy to follow, esp. because >File Viewer and Browsers alphabetize files. >Hopefully, printed 2.0 docs are better organized. I once posted a message which said "the docs are perfectly adequate". Unfortunately, I was wrong. The docs *were* perfectly adequate in 1.0, but in 2.0 all of the useful "concepts" manuals are missing. Anybody who wants to program the next (probably nearly everyone that owns one right now), really needs the concepts documentation to understand how to use IB, Objc, and Appkit. This is unfortunate. I at least have the recourse of referring to the 1.0 docs, though they're out of date for all the good things NeXT did for 2.0. I asked someone at NeXT about this, and she told me that it wasn't the intention of NeXT to remove this useful information from the docset, and that they were working on new, improved concepts manuals. (If I understood her correctly, the conversation took place awhile ago). Frankly, I don't really understand what NeXT has in mind for documentation. But the tutorials, concepts manuals, and anything else relevant to making use of NeXTStep and Mach internals should be placed back online. I'd like to suggest that we all "urge" NeXT to do this ASAP. If I were a new NeXT user with only 2.0 documentation available, I'd be very angry and confused about programming my machine. And we don't all have the time and money to spend going to NeXT Developer's School at $995 a pop. If NeXT 2.1 will fix this, great, but let's make those docs available ASAP. Also, new users, please don't send mail asking for the 1.0 docs. It's copyrighted material of NeXT, and I imagine anything they're willing to distribute to the net alread resides in the ftp archives. Dave
izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (03/10/91)
In article <CNH5730.91Mar9124234@maraba.tamu.edu> cnh5730@maraba.tamu.edu writes: >In article <199n1Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. > >try the following under 2.0 with 2.0 Extended installed: >1) launch Librarian >2) put `Developer RelNotes' on the Bookshelf >3) select `Developer RelNotes' as the search target >4) enter `interfacebuilder' and click on `Search' >5) double-click on InterfaceBuilder.rtf >6) click to the top of the document Well, /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/InterfaceBuilder.rtf is a 2.0 Release Note. While it is useful and informative for me, it assumes that the reader already knows IB in detail. It won't help new users who are trying to learn the IB stuff for the first time. It is only 48kb, and can't possibly replace what they had in 2.0beta (1.7MB) as IB documentation. I just question the intention, or lack of wisdom of NeXT for removing the critical documentation needed to learn programming on NeXT. It's more important than the man pages. As I said, it's only 1.7MB on 2.0beta, and the reason for removal can't be the space on the 2.0 optical disk. -- Izumi Ohzawa [ $@Bg_78^=;(J ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (415) 642-6440 Fax: (415) 642-3323 Internet: izumi@violet.berkeley.edu NeXTmail: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu
simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) (03/10/91)
In article <1991Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: In article <SIMMONS.91Mar8220144@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >.... but there is no Interface Builder documentation at >all with the 2.0 Extended release! This makes IB useless to me. What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. That's strange, there was /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/DevTools/02_InterfaceBuilder/* on 2.0beta (Fuchsia), and it's only 1.7MB. Why did they remove THE most critical doc for programming on NeXT? The NeXT on-line documentation is not easy to follow, esp. because File Viewer and Browsers alphabetize files. Hopefully, printed 2.0 docs are better organized. It's now NextDev/DevTools/02_Terminal Since all the documentation is online, does this mean that NeXT does not want us to use IB, why else would they not ship documentation on it. I for one can't figure out how to use it without some sort of documentation. We have a lot of new users around here in the same boat who were under the impression that IB was a powerful and unique tool that they could use. Why did they remove THE most critical doc for programming on NeXT? I do not know, but i guess i can also remove IB since it's useless to me without docs. -- =============================================================================== Internet: simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu Othernet: simmons@hoofers.lake.mendota --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- According to the HitchHikers guide to the galaxy, the one thing we *cannot* afford to have is a sense of perspective. ===============================================================================
dcarpent@sjuphil.uucp (D. Carpenter) (03/10/91)
In article <1991Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > >The NeXT on-line documentation is not easy to follow, esp. because >File Viewer and Browsers alphabetize files. >Hopefully, printed 2.0 docs are better organized. > Which leads to the question: has anyone seen the 2.0 docs as yet? Or heard when we can expect to see them? Will those of us who paid for the 1.0 tech docs and who purchased the 2.0 upgrade receive 2.0 docs at no charge, or must we pay again? Anyone heard anything? -- =============================================================== David Carpenter dcarpent@sjuphil.UUCP St. Joseph's University dcarpent@sjuphil.sju.edu Philadelphia, PA 19131
scott@texnext.gac.edu (Scott Hess) (03/10/91)
In article <1991Mar9.185839.27800@engage.enet.dec.com> tenny@ootool.dec.com (Dave Tenny) writes:
I once posted a message which said "the docs are perfectly
adequate". Unfortunately, I was wrong. The docs *were*
perfectly adequate in 1.0, but in 2.0 all of the useful
"concepts" manuals are missing. Anybody who wants
to program the next (probably nearly everyone that owns
one right now), really needs the concepts documentation
to understand how to use IB, Objc, and Appkit.
I asked someone at NeXT about this, and she told me
that it wasn't the intention of NeXT to remove this
useful information from the docset, and that they were
working on new, improved concepts manuals. (If I understood
her correctly, the conversation took place awhile ago).
Well, the 1.0 concepts docs were _not_ adaquate. Sure, they worked
for me and a few other individuals here at Gustavus, but most people
are simply not willing to put in the time that I was willing to put
in.
The _real_ solution is for someone to write a book. I don't know that
I really expect NeXT to come out with a really good solution. Not
that they aren't capable, just that I've not seen many companies who
have been capable of writing good tutorials for their computers -
even the much larger companies have problems with this (IBM would be
a prime candidate, there :-).
The problem is that most people who would make the best book writers
aren't the people who I'd like to have write the book. On the other
side of the coin, most people who are knowledgeable enough aren't
(IMHO) quite capable of making it understandable. I, for instance,
would not care to do it (and I've been complemented on my writing
skills from time to time). I don't mean to cut down the people
I know out there who _are_ writing a book, I'm just making a
generalization.
So, what it comes down to is that someone needs to get 2 or 3 people
together and do it. Preferrably "free", or semi-free, or at least
cheap :-). The catch is that the NeXT market is still a little
small for something like this.
I'd like to suggest that we all "urge" NeXT to do this
ASAP. If I were a new NeXT user with only 2.0 documentation
available, I'd be very angry and confused about programming
my machine. And we don't all have the time and money to spend
going to NeXT Developer's School at $995 a pop.
I don't think that you need to be a developer to get the technical
documentation. We had the 1.0 tech docs long before we had someone
sent out to NeXT for the camp. The technical docs themselves are
cheap, at $95 for both developer's and list price.
On the other hand, I've yet to see them, so who's to say what's in
them at this point ( <-- that point raised so that I don't get
your hopes up. I hope they are good, and help all of us work
better. But, who's to say until we see them? ).
If NeXT 2.1 will fix this, great, but let's make those
docs available ASAP.
I'm a little dissappointed in NeXT for a couple of decisions such as
this. Another thing that comes to mind as missing is the libtext
library and header files. While I was only using it in a couple
places, and simple functions (I rewrote them), many people are not
so lucky. The reasons I've heard for the dissappearance were that
NeXT didn't like the versions in there and are probably going to
supply better versions.
But, I don't want to wait. What I'd have rather had happen would be
for NeXT to distribute comments throughout the files explaining that
they will not be around after 3.0, that there will be a replacement.
Such as they did with the db library (which is to be replaced by
the BTree objects). In this way, we can keep on working for the 6-12
months during which the new solution is not availiable.
Oh, well. That is more or less spilled milk. Just don't do it in
the future :-).
Later,
--
scott hess scott@gac.edu
Independent NeXT Developer GAC Undergrad
<I still speak for nobody>
"Tried anarchy, once. Found it had too many constraints . . ."
"I smoke the nose Lucifer . . . Banana, banana."glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (03/10/91)
In article <CNH5730.91Mar9124234@maraba.tamu.edu> cnh5730@maraba.tamu.edu writes: > In article <1991Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. > > try the following under 2.0 with 2.0 Extended installed: > 1) launch Librarian > 2) put `Developer RelNotes' on the Bookshelf > 3) select `Developer RelNotes' as the search target > 4) enter `interfacebuilder' and click on `Search' > 5) double-click on InterfaceBuilder.rtf That isn't documentation. Those are release notes, which just tell you what has changed since the last version. -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-851-1785 (fax 851-1470)
lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) (03/11/91)
In article <CNH5730.91Mar9124234@maraba.tamu.edu> cnh5730@maraba.tamu.edu writes: > In article <1991Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. > > try the following under 2.0 with 2.0 Extended installed: > 1) launch Librarian ... > 6) click to the top of the document (ie openfile /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/InterfaceBuilder.rtf from the shell) The release notes on interface builder are NOT a subsitute to interface builder documentation for someone who wants to learn how to use IB... Saying "use the 1.0 documentation" is lame considering some people do not have 1.0 documentation, or it got flushed during the numeros upgrades. pasc Pascal Chesnais, Research Specialist, Electronic Publishing Group Media Laboratory, E15-351, 20 Ames Street, Cambridge, Ma, 02139 (617) 253-0311 email: lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (NeXT)
smb@data.com (Steven M. Boker) (03/11/91)
In article <1991Mar9.223839.11620@sjuphil.uucp> dcarpent@sjuphil.UUCP (D. Carpenter) writes: >Which leads to the question: has anyone seen the 2.0 docs >as yet? Or heard when we can expect to see them? Will those >of us who paid for the 1.0 tech docs and who purchased the >2.0 upgrade receive 2.0 docs at no charge, or must we pay >again? Anyone heard anything? I have been assured by people at NeXT that the 1.0 (preliminary) docs are just that -- preliminary. Those of us who have purchased Tech docs will receive 2.0 (or 2.1 whatever) docs. I am also under the impression that this may be the end of the Tech Doc free ride though. I'm not sure about that. Anyone able to clear up the murky future here? Steve -- #====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====# # Steve Boker # En Vino Kaos # # smb@data.com # En Kaos Veritas # #====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#====#
gene@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Gene De Lisa) (03/11/91)
>In article <CNH5730.91Mar9124234@maraba.tamu.edu> > cnh5730@maraba.tamu.edu writes: >>In article <199n1Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu> > izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >> What? That's right. There's no IB docs even on 2.0 Extended. [...] >Well, /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/InterfaceBuilder.rtf >is a 2.0 Release Note. While it is useful and informative for me, >it assumes that the reader already knows IB in detail. >It won't help new users who are trying to learn the IB stuff for >the first time. [...] Yes I agree. I would like some kind of doc on IB. Is there any oldtimer out there willing to slap together a tutorial? -- more direct: vortech!gene@Central.Sun.COM
rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) (03/11/91)
In article <1991Mar9.223839.11620@sjuphil.uucp> dcarpent@sjuphil.UUCP (D. Carpenter) writes: >Which leads to the question: has anyone seen the 2.0 docs >as yet? Or heard when we can expect to see them? Will those >of us who paid for the 1.0 tech docs and who purchased the >2.0 upgrade receive 2.0 docs at no charge, or must we pay >again? Anyone heard anything? In a normal case I would suspect that we will have to pay for the new set of documentation. However since the original price was 500$ and included all documentation up and including 1.0 final release and we all got only up and until 1.0 preliminary, I hope we that that paid the old version of the doc, get this upgrade for "free". Well we paid 500$ for 0.8, 0.9, prel. 1.0. So 4*20$ for shipping and 4* 100$ for the docs including 2.0 makes roughly 500$, which is what we paid. Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." G.B. Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@browncog.bitnet
waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu (03/11/91)
In article <1991Mar9.185839.27800@engage.enet.dec.com>, tenny@ootool.dec.com (Dave Tenny) writes: > In article <1991Mar9.092447.28614@agate.berkeley.edu>, izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes... >>In article <SIMMONS.91Mar8220144@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> >> simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >>>.... but there is no Interface Builder documentation at [...] > I asked someone at NeXT about this, and she told me > that it wasn't the intention of NeXT to remove this > useful information from the docset, and that they were > working on new, improved concepts manuals. (If I understood > her correctly, the conversation took place awhile ago). > Frankly, I don't really understand what NeXT has in mind > for documentation. But the tutorials, concepts manuals, and > anything else relevant to making use of NeXTStep and Mach > internals should be placed back online. Maybe NeXTworld could interview someone at NeXT about their plans for documentation. [...] c.f.waltrip Internet: <waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu> Opinions expressed are my own.
mikec@wam.umd.edu (Michael D. Callaghan) (03/12/91)
Recently someone mentioned Hard Copy manuals from NeXT that should cover most of this. I would like to know which manuals these are. The Computer Emporium here on campus has the 2.0 Technical Reference Manuals for $95. Is that the right set? Is there a Programmer's Manual someplace? I don't want to spend $95 and get the wrong books. Thanks, -- MikeC _________________________________________________________ Michael D. Callaghan, MDC Designs, University of Maryland mikec@wam.umd.edu