ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) (12/20/85)
As Americans, we hear so much noise about "freedom" and
"living in a free country" from the day we're born, that I
honestly think every American should pay a visit to West Germany
at least once in his life to see what a country which actually IS
more or less free looks like.
West Germans do not write their traffic laws for the most
dufless nerd in the land as we do; that person is directed to
the train station (Bahnhof) and the traffic laws are written for
normal, intelligent, competant people. There are no seat-belt or
air-bag laws in Germany, no speed limits on the autobahns outside
major city limits, and minimal restrictions elsewhere. Traffic
normally moves THROUGH cities at 45 - 55 mph or so. There are
amber lights on RED at intersections so that there are no 15
second lags after a light turns green before anybody moves.
Surprisingly given all of this, there are very few wrecks
and mishaps by American Standards, and about 1/10 the number of
cops driving around that we are used to. As a general rule, it
is damned hard to tell the used from the new cars at German car
lots. Laws require true competance of drivers before they MAY
drive, as well as true performance from vehicles. Cars such as
the American muscle cars of the 60's (with engines made for 140
mph and the entire rest of the car made for about 50) would be
limited to 50 mph by German laws and, hence, nobody would buy
them. German roads are unbelievable by our standards; aside
from the obvious lack of bumps and potholes, the composition is
made for maximum grip by tires in rain. Driving at 80 or 100 mph
there in rain is SAFE.
But the biggest single reason for the lack of grief on the
roads may be something which has been totally overlooked in all
the arguements over speed limits which I have ever heard; WHEN
YOU ARE DRIVING AT 100 MPH AS OPPOSED TO 50, YOU ARE ON THE ROAD
HALF AS LONG, SO IS EVERYBODY ELSE, AND THERE ARE ONLY HALF THE
NUMBER OF CARS ON THE ROAD AT ONE TIME. I claim no copyright on
this idea; feel free to use it when shouting down the next idiot
you hear spouting "55/ a law we can live with". And one last
thing I should mention is the basic level of tolerance for drunk
driving in Germany: zero. The first offense is six months of
hard labor. I don't think anybody's ever found out what the
second offense would involve. Drunks there walk around or run or
swim or wrestle or DO SOMETHING until they're sober and THEN
drive home.
You see women walking around by themselves in major cities
at night in West Germany, as if there was nothing to be afraid
of, even in Frankfurt which everybody else calls "Kleine Chicago"
because of all the crime there; probably 2 or 3 sets of hubcaps
get stolen there every year. Cities in Germany are there for
middle-class people, and the basic contest is to see who can have
the MOST ATTRACTIVE one, not the funkiest. Also in a more or
less free country, you see little wine and liquor stands and
sometimes "sex shops" in the shopping streets (the central street
of any major city is set aside for pedestrians and stores and
shopping), often next to the cathedrals. Germans can't believe
me when I tell them they'd get thrown in jail forever for such
activities in America.
It's almost enough to make you cry, isn't it? I mean,
especially you poor slobs in Massachussetts. ins_aeas@jhunix.UUCP (Earle A .Sugar) (12/21/85)
> West Germans do not write their traffic laws for the most > dufless nerd in the land as we do; that person is directed to > the train station (Bahnhof) and the traffic laws are written for > normal, intelligent, competant people. There are no seat-belt or > air-bag laws in Germany, no speed limits on the autobahns outside > major city limits, and minimal restrictions elsewhere. Traffic > normally moves THROUGH cities at 45 - 55 mph or so. There are > amber lights on RED at intersections so that there are no 15 > second lags after a light turns green before anybody moves. > > Surprisingly given all of this, there are very few wrecks > and mishaps by American Standards, and about 1/10 the number of > cops driving around that we are used to. As a general rule, it > is damned hard to tell the used from the new cars at German car > lots. Laws require true competance of drivers before they MAY > drive, as well as true performance from vehicles. Cars such as > the American muscle cars of the 60's (with engines made for 140 > mph and the entire rest of the car made for about 50) would be > limited to 50 mph by German laws and, hence, nobody would buy > them. German roads are unbelievable by our standards; aside > from the obvious lack of bumps and potholes, the composition is > made for maximum grip by tires in rain. Driving at 80 or 100 mph > there in rain is SAFE. > > It's almost enough to make you cry, isn't it? I mean, > especially you poor slobs in Massachussetts. You hit on the major reason for the pro-55 lobby in your posting: American drivers are BAD! They are dangerous to themselves at any speed, under any conditions, in any traffic. Somehow the DOT seems to think that driving 55 counteracts incompetance of the majority of drivers on the road. Just look at all of the people who make unsignalled left turns from the right lane, all the twits driving Dodge Darts at 45mph in the left lane of I-95, and the people who cannot grasp the simple concept that two objects cannot occupy the same point in space at the same moment in time. We need driver's licenses that mean something. Make part of the license test include an emergency stop or turn on wet pavement, and written tests that really can indicate what the driver will do in traffic (i.e. what would you do in such and such a situation, rather than the stuff about what the traffic signs mean). The legislatures of the states couldn't require that American drivers perform like German drivers. Too many powerful voting blocks would see large percentages of their members losing their driving privileges. However, regardless of the quality of domestic drivers, 55 is arbitrary and should be repealed. Speed limits should be set by engineers who can better estimate maximum safe speeds on interstates by conditions. I don't like having the government legislating every aspect of my life; I can make my own stupid mistakes without some bureaucrat making them for me. -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Earle A. Sugar Disclaimer:"I doubt anyone else here agrees with me." USENET: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_aeas CSNET:ins_aeas@jhunix.csnet ARPA:ins_aeas%jhunix.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa BITNET: INS_BEAS@JHUVMS (as a last resort) "If you don't expect anything, you'll never be dissappointed." or call 301-889-0815 after 6 P.M. EST
tw8023@pyuxii.UUCP (T Wheeler) (12/26/85)
I always enjoy seeing articles extoling the virtues of the drivers of West Germany. I lived in West Germany for two years and I don't recall seeing so many wonderful drivers. I do recall seeing dozens of fatal smashups in which the driver had been inattentive, driving too fast for conditions, and just plain speeding. I saw quite a few German drivers who THOUGHT they were god's gift to the autobahn. I see the same types right here on the Garden State Parkway. The myth about drivers in West Germany is just that, a myth. As a percentage of the population, West Germans have fewer accidents, BUT, as a percentage of the DRIVING population, West Germans have more accidents than we do. There is nothing mystique about German drivers, nor for that matter, drivers from any other European country. Why don't we just lay all of this attempt at creating a rationale for speeding aside and say what is really on your minds; you want to go fast. If you will just admit that you enjoy speeding along a nice highway, we can eliminate all of this roundabout reasoning and get to the nub of the argument. There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to go fast. Man has been improving on his ability to go faster since the invention of the wheel. I have no problem with this. It is fun to go fast. The only place I have a problem is where the person going fast disconects his brain from his foot. That is, he ignores the weather, the amount of congestion, and, above all, other vehicles in his path. To do these things here in the Northeast corridor can often lead to fatal results. Too many drivers do not take into account the other driver. Sure the 55 mph law should be reevaluated. But, to say that everyone can just do their own thing is just not realistic. What do you tell folks who drive at a speed they feel comfortable at, say 60, and there is no speed limit? Stay off the highways? I don't think you want to do that, right? What do you say to someone who feels comfortable at 85? Have a nice day? I suppose you could say that, but do you want him blowing you off the strand if you feel better at 70. Where do you set the standard? How do you control the standard? Do we all drive cars of different colors according to our speed preference? Do we build highways according to how fast you wish to go? This one's for 55, that one's for 65, etc. This is not an argument for keeping the 55 speed limit. This is an argument for having different speed limits according to the time, place, and conditions. I happen to think the Garden State Parkway around here could go to 60 during the rush hour and perhaps 65 other times except when conditions call for a lower speed. Since this highway is becoming more and more crowded, an open speed limit would be an invitation to disaster. Believing in the advertising for your hot car is just plain dumb. Don't forget, the car is built in one place while the advertising comes from Madison Avenue, even those writeups in the magazines are mostly hype from the agency. Do you want to believe in hype from the same place that gave us the Smurfs, Cigarette ads, and Slim Whitman albums? Think about it for a moment. If you like to go fast, just say so. I feel a lot more respect for someone who admits that speeding is fun than for someone who is trying to rationalize their passion with a bunch of stacked statistics from Europe or some other place. We are here, not overseas. We have different problems on our highways than do most European countrys. We have to face our problems with our solutions, not try to transplant someone else's solutions to our completly different problems. The blanket imposition of a 55 mph speed limit did not solve the problems, but neither did prohibition and it got changed. Therefore, calling for an open speed limit, I feel, will not solve anything either. It will just change the set of problems. There is no easy solution for those who like to go fast. And, on the other hand, there is no easy solution for those who feel more comfortable at lower speeds. T. C. Wheeler
mzal@pegasus.UUCP (Mike Zaleski) (12/31/85)
Indented excerpts from tw8023@pyuxii.UUCP (T Wheeler): Why don't we just lay all of this attempt at creating a rationale for speeding aside and say what is really on your minds; you want to go fast. If you will just admit that you enjoy speeding along a nice highway, we can eliminate all of this roundabout reasoning and get to the nub of the argument. I completely agree that, despite the rationales offered by various articles in net.auto, this is the true reason for objection to the speed limit. Long time readers of net.auto may remember my proposal for a real nationwide campaign to get rid of the 55 limit - complete with slogans, manipulative advertising, and a boycott. It is not that I particularly believed the ideas which I felt could be conveyed in manipulative advertising. I do, however, believe that the vast number of people in this country are more readily swayed by plausable sounding reasons then they would be by the statement: "I don't think speeding is bad." Rationalizations (and lies, for that matter) are a long standing tradition in politics. Stacked statistics are used, not just to show that German drivers are better, but that 55 saves lives, and so on. It is not surprising to see rationalizations used in pro and anti 55 articles in net.auto, we've all learned this is part of winning a political battle. But, it is silly, because net.auto is read by auto enthusiasts who (whether they are anti or pro 55) know what each other is really thinking. What do you tell folks who drive at a speed they feel comfortable at, say 60, and there is no speed limit? Stay off the highways? I don't think you want to do that, right? What do you say to someone who feels comfortable at 85? Have a nice day? I suppose you could say that, but do you want him blowing you off the strand if you feel better at 70. Where do you set the standard? This reminds me of a George Carlin line: "Have you ever noticed how everyone who is driving slower than you is an idiot and everyone who is driving faster than you is a maniac?" There is a bit of truth in this which every person who has flamed pro or anti 55 on net.auto could learn from. The rest of T.C. Wheeler's article was quite good. Really. -- "The Model Citizen" Mike^Z Zaleski@Rutgers [ allegra, ihnp4 ] pegasus!mzal
joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) (01/02/86)
While I wouldn't want to contradict someones personal experiences, I should point out as regards the traffic safety record for West Germany that their auto fatality rate (per 100 million vechicle kilometers) is 80 percent higher than ours. > From: ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) > > West Germans do not write their traffic laws for the most > dufless nerd in the land as we do; that person is directed to > the train station (Bahnhof) and the traffic laws are written for > normal, intelligent, competant people. There are no seat-belt or > air-bag laws in Germany, no speed limits on the autobahns outside > major city limits, and minimal restrictions elsewhere. Traffic > normally moves THROUGH cities at 45 - 55 mph or so. There are > amber lights on RED at intersections so that there are no 15 > second lags after a light turns green before anybody moves. > > Surprisingly given all of this, there are very few wrecks > and mishaps by American Standards, and about 1/10 the number of > cops driving around that we are used to. As a general rule, it -- Joel Upchurch @ CONCURRENT Computer Corporation (A Perkin-Elmer Company) Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel
jens@moscom.UUCP (Jens Fiederer) (01/03/86)
Sounds good, but somewhat exaggerated. While most licensed German drivers
should be fairly competent (the licensing process is arduous), Germany
reciprocates with the driver's licenses of other countries. There are
plenty of American soldiers driving on the German road who
never had to pass the same requirements. As a matter of fact, I know at
Germans (without driver's licenses) who plan to travel to the US
in order to get their licenses THERE. This would save them time and
money!!!
I am also not as entranced as you are by the quality of the German roads.
They are narrower than most roads here (although admittedly better
maintained), and even a minor accident can cause severe traffic
blockages ("Schlangen", or "snakes" of cars).
According to an article I read in Time or Newsweek, the German
accident statistics are actually somewhat worse than the US
statistics. But considering the greater freedom, I would consider
it well worth it.
Azhrarn