dmmartindale (08/21/82)
My objection to mandatory inclusion of airbags in cars is a very simple one: I ALWAYS wear seatbelts, and as far as I can tell airbags offer essentially no additional protection. However, they are expensive, might cause hearing damage if triggered, and would certainly make controlling the car more difficult in an emergency if they triggered. Thus for me, they have nothing going for them and much against. If I'm ever forced to buy a car that has airbags, I want a way of turning them off (or I'll disable them myself.)
laura@utcsstat.UUCP (06/29/83)
Now correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that airbags are less effective than seatbelts in stopping me from being killed if I am in a car crash. And airbags are expensive, and cost money to be deflated if they ever do go off, either *in* an accident or *by* accident. Yet you poor folks are going to have to get airbags and the seatbelts are being removed? And if I rent a car in the States there will be airbags and no seatbelts? Terrific. Now, again, the people with the brains have to suffer because of the ones who dont. There are times when I think that it would be quicker to build a great big ark (and call it the B ark :-) ) and ship them all off planet. How many people here think that the prime role of government should be providing information? How many think that it should be weilding a great big stick to threaten those who may have done wrong? How many think that the primary role should be protecting stupid people from the consequences of their own stupidity? How many think that the primary role should be penalising the intelligent because their brethren are stupid or for some reason *want* to kill themselves? Laura Creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura
emma@uw-june.UUCP (06/30/83)
Air bags are more effective than seat belts in a single forward impact. In a secondary impact, side impact, rollover, or rear impact seat belts are more effective. Seat belt-shoulder harness combinations are more effective in all situations. Automatic seat belts, which include a shoulder harness in all cases I have ever heard of, are more effective than air bags but less than shoulder harnesses. My understanding is that in autos equipped with air bags the shoulder harness will be missing but the seat belt will remain (with no gongs or other reminders to buckle it). This is a classic example of the federal covernment compromising my safety for the benefit of some moron incapable of fitting tab 'A' in slot 'B', and charging me (estimates are in the range of $900.00) for the privilege. And frankly I resent it. -Joe P.
martin@auvax.UUCP (07/06/83)
The articles I've been reading so far on the subject of airbags indicate that a lap belt must be worn to ensure that 'submarineing' doesn't occur. I have not had any actual experience with airbags, however having worked as an Emergency Medical Technition out of a small town, I've seen my share of accidents that occur at highway speeds (100KPH). One which may relate to this topic is where a driver fell asleep at the wheel (I thi (he couldn't talk too well)) and drove head on into a loaded tandem dump truck. The '63 chevelle sedan which is not a small car was shall we say written off. It took the use of a come-along to get the steering wheel off of the driver. The interesting part (?) was how the driver had completly submarined under the dash with the front seat moving completley forward. Move the front seat of your car completely forward and try to fit your entire body in front of it under the dash sometime. The whole point is that proper use of shoulder/lap belts would in all probability have either saved this person or at least allowed us to get him out and to a Hospital before he expired. Don Martin Athabasca University
biagioni@unc.UUCP (Edoardo Biagioni) (12/20/85)
[article about seat belt laws and the priviledges the highway patrol derives from them deleted] > > Not quite. It seems that Empress Dole (Sec. of Transportation) has decreed > that airbags will be mandatory (gag) unless n% (n > 50, i think) of the states > pass mandatory seat belt laws. I, for one, would rather have seatbelts than > airbags. > <supressing long, rambling tirade against airbags and regulatory agencies> Well, then let's hope *less* than 50% of the states pass seat belt laws! Why would you rather have seat belts than airbags? Just offhand, airbags have the following advantages: - They work even when you don't think about them (i.e., when you are distracted or tired, which is when you might need them most...). - They are more comfortable than seat belts, and comfort when driving is important. - They work even for kids or people who aren't "normal size". - It is easier to enforce airbag installation than seat belt wearing. This means that more people will be protected. - Once you have an airbag, you will always use it when needed. - You have no incentive to deactivate the airbag. I have seen lots of cars where the seat belts have been taken down. The only disadvantage I can see in airbags is their cost, which last I heard was estimated at about $300 (U.S.). Since that is about 5% of a CHEAP car, it seems like it might be worth the investment. Other than this extra cost, I can't think why anyone would prefer seat belts to airbags, unless it is to encourage "natural" selection, of course :-). (Smiley because I can't believe anyone REALLY wants only seat-belters to survive and reproduce). I share your dislike of regulatory agencies, but I would prefer to have them regulate airbags than what percentage of the states must have seat belt laws. > >-- >John Allred >General Computer Company >uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-milo!john Ed Biagioni decvax!mcnc!unc!biagioni seismo!mcnc!unc!biagioni
mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) (12/31/85)
> Why would you rather have seat belts than airbags? Just offhand, > airbags have the following advantages: > - They work even when you don't think about them (i.e., when you are > distracted or tired, which is when you might need them most...). They also protect you only in frontal collisions. > - They are more comfortable than seat belts, and comfort when > driving is important. And I feel one helluva lot better strapped into the car so that if something happens and I get thrown to one side, I won't yank the wheel over and compound the accident. By the way, a study showed that people who wear seat belts use LESS energy just riding in the car than those who don't. Where's the comfort? > - They work even for kids or people who aren't "normal size". A real problem with the current crop of belts, but I blame car designers and people who don't wear seat belts correctly ... forcing designers to create belts that can only be put on in one way ... and an inconvenient one at that. > - It is easier to enforce airbag installation than seat belt wearing. And harder to test the damned thing without destroying it. What about the person whose eyglasses can't be made of safety glass? When the bag fires and shatters the lens, it blinds him. The seat belt won't do that. > This means that more people will be protected. Dee below. > - Once you have an airbag, you will always use it when needed. Once. In a multicollision accident, you are totally vulnerable on the second impact. In a roll-over, you bounce around the car. > - You have no incentive to deactivate the airbag. I have seen lots > of cars where the seat belts have been taken down. I do. I want my three-point harness. I don't want a system that will knock me away from the controls when I may need the most control effort - and skill. > The only disadvantage I can see in airbags is their cost, which last > I heard was estimated at about $300 (U.S.). Since that is about 5% > of a CHEAP car, it seems like it might be worth the investment. > Other than this extra cost, I can't think why anyone would prefer seat > belts to airbags, unless it is to encourage "natural" selection, > of course :-) . . . Seat belt laws mean the not wearing a seat belt will make it impossible for someone to collect insurance money for harm that he could have mitagated or prevented. Why the hell should he collect MY insurance money for HIS aforethough negligence? It may also mean that more drivers will be able to control their cars in panic stops when the rear wheels break loose. I can, but without the belt, there's just no way I could keep all my weight from going to the brake pedal, and no way I could steer. I don't think most drivers are much better. Dammit, I want my harness. Seat belts are NOT just emergency (read collision) protection, they are basic equipment necessary for the safe operation of an automobile. -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) mtx5b!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) (01/03/86)
In article <1163@mtx5a.UUCP> mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) writes: >> [somebody else] >> Why would you rather have seat belts than airbags? Just offhand, >> airbags have the following advantages: >> - They work even when you don't think about them (i.e., when you are >> distracted or tired, which is when you might need them most...). >They also protect you only in frontal collisions. > And only marginally so, even then. Airbags are not considered completely effective without the use of seatbelts anyway. >And I feel one helluva lot better strapped into the car so that if >something happens and I get thrown to one side, I won't yank the >wheel over and compound the accident. Interesting. I've noticed that most of my passengers feel MUCH better when they've snapped their belts on than when they haven't :-) >> - You have no incentive to deactivate the airbag. I have seen lots >> of cars where the seat belts have been taken down. >I do. I want my three-point harness. I don't want a system that will knock >me away from the controls when I may need the most control effort - and skill. Ah, here we disagree. I really can't think of any skills I'd need in the middle of a collision other than the need to make sure I haven't reflexively locked my limbs, waiting for quadruple compound impact fractures. It would be nice to know that something collapsible besides my arms is waiting to cushion me. >It may also mean that more drivers will be able to control their cars in >panic stops when the rear wheels break loose. I can, but without the belt, >there's just no way I could keep all my weight from going to the brake pedal, >and no way I could steer. I don't think most drivers are much better. > >Dammit, I want my harness. Seat belts are NOT just emergency (read collision) >protection, they are basic equipment necessary for the safe operation of an >automobile. > > from Mole End Mark Terribile Amen. -dave -- David Hsu Communication & Signal Processing Lab, EE Department <disclaimer> University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 hsu@eneevax.umd.edu {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu CF522@UMDD.BITNET And then there were none.
john@gcc-milo.ARPA (John Allred) (01/03/86)
In article <472@eneevax.UUCP> hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) writes: >In article <1163@mtx5a.UUCP> mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) writes: > >>> - You have no incentive to deactivate the airbag. I have seen lots >>> of cars where the seat belts have been taken down. >>I do. I want my three-point harness. I don't want a system that will knock >>me away from the controls when I may need the most control effort - and skill >Ah, here we disagree. I really can't think of any skills I'd need in >the middle of a collision other than the need to make sure I haven't >reflexively locked my limbs, waiting for quadruple compound impact fractures. >It would be nice to know that something collapsible besides my arms is waiting >to cushion me. I must disagree with you. The last thing I need in the middle of an accident, while trying to maneuver to avoid other cars/guardrails/etc, is this silly bag obscuring my vision and distracting me. As for something to keep my head from going into the windshield, that's what a 3-point harness is for. If Empress Dole gets her way and mandates airbags, and I buy an airbag equiped vehicle, I will *immediately* disable the bag. -- John Allred General Computer Company uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-milo!john
hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) (01/04/86)
In article <419@gcc-milo.ARPA> john@gcc-milo.UUCP (John Allred) writes: >In article <472@eneevax.UUCP> hsu@eneevax.UUCP I write: >>Ah, here we disagree. I really can't think of any skills I'd need in >>the middle of a collision other than the need to make sure I haven't >>reflexively locked my limbs, waiting for quadruple compound impact fractures. >>It would be nice to know that something collapsible besides my arms is waiting >>to cushion me. > >I must disagree with you. The last thing I need in the middle of an accident, >while trying to maneuver to avoid other cars/guardrails/etc, is this silly bag >obscuring my vision and distracting me. As for something to keep my head >from going into the windshield, that's what a 3-point harness is for. >-- >John Allred I suppose I shouldn't prolong this discussion, but anyhow: The point of airbags is that even with a three-point harness, in a severe impact you WILL be thrown forwards, probably not into your windshield, but possibly into your steering wheel, or whatever happens to be flying around your passenger compartment at the time (coins, keys, Escort, etc.) If you've been hit hard enough to throw you against the front of your dash, I don't care if you're Steve Austin...you're not going to be maneuvering anywhere until you've recovered. And by that time, the bag has long since deflated. Airbags aren't telepathic, they won't inflate because you think an collision may occur, they inflate WHEN you collide. And no, even if they mandate airbags you'd better believe I'm still going to rely on my harness, but I'm not disabling the bags. On the flip side, we should hope that if a mandatory airbag law comes into effect, it shouldn't require the airbag to detonate for some ridiculously small impact, where a belted person wouldn't lose control (even if it would help some unbelted driver towards his early extinction). In this case, you may have a point say, if you are clipped by another car. But by then, you've been hit, haven't you? apologies for the long posting, -dave -- David Hsu Communication & Signal Processing Lab, EE Department <disclaimer> University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 hsu@eneevax.umd.edu {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu CF522@UMDD.BITNET And then there were none.
ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) (01/05/86)
Since air bags may someday be standard items on many if not all of the cars being sold in America, there are several questions which potential owners of such vehicles should consider. These include: 1. Since these devices will in all likelihood be microprocessor controlled, and the cars owned longer than 3 years average, the first question is "How many microcomputers have I ever seen go three years and never break or need repairs?". Of course, when a PC breaks, you simply send it out for repairs, no big deal; a problem with the microprocessor controlling your airbag would, of course, be a whole lot worse than that. 2. Your PC doesn't sit out in the cold and get rained on like your car does; is there any reason for thinking it would break LESS often if it did? 3. In view of the first two questions, and noting that the average American driver isn't terribly good even WITHOUT being pinned into his seat and blinded, is there any particular reason to to think he would function better or even as well when he was? 4. Aside from accidental problems such as these, is there any reason to think that a particularly large, strong, and evil-minded ten-year-old (such as I was 30 years ago) couldn't simply run up to cars stopped at a light and kick their bumpers, and laugh gleefully at the poor idiots trapped inside? 5. I could think of a lot more such questions. The only one that really counts is "How do we stop this kind of crap?". Or, failing that, how do we disable the things?
ronc@fai.UUCP (Ronald O. Christian) (01/06/86)
>Dammit, I want my harness. Seat belts are NOT just emergency (read collision) >protection, they are basic equipment necessary for the safe operation of an >automobile. ***** I totally agree. In your article you outlined nearly all the things that scare me about bags. I'd also like to share with you a recurring nightmare of mine: An emergency situation occurs while I am driving. I've trained for this moment, my car is in good mechanical shape, I'm on good rubber, my reflexes are good, I'm wearing a three point harness and I'm paying attention. The emergency occurs and... something blinds me and pushes me away from the controls. The irony that this something has been installed by Uncle Sam for my safety does nothing to help me regain control of my careening car. The nightmare usually ends with me and the auto falling from a great height. No THANK you. Ron -- -- Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calf.) ihnp4!{pesnta,qubix}!wjvax!fai!ronc Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: "If you are seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it."
preece@ccvaxa.UUCP (01/07/86)
[response to ted@imsvax's "questions to consider w/r/t airbags] 1. [ted: they'll use microprocessors; do you think they won't break?] Why should they use microprocessors? My understanding is that some designs even use mechanical sensors. And many microprocessors work just fine for years and years, especially in embedded applications. My PC is four years old and has had no repairs. 2. [ted: won't micros in the rain and cold break even more often?] Again, the use of a micro here is unlikely, but in any case it would be in a sealed container and ought to be able to cope. 3. [ted: won't drivers perform worse when "pinned" by a bag than now?] Well, most drivers don't perform at all when squashed against the windshield, which is the common alternative. Also, the bag's cycle time is very rapid, for just that reason. 4. [ted: won't teenagers have fun kicking bumpers at stoplights to make airbags fire?] Oh, come on. The sensors aren't nearly that sensitive. 5. [ted: how do we stop this crap or disable the things?] Well, it looks increasingly like you won't be able to stop it. I imagine it will be possible to disable them, if you're dumb enough to prefer the windshield as a bumper... The actual operating experience on airbags has been very good (no, I don't have numbers at hand, but I have seen them published). There were very few accidental deployments, with no ill results. There were quite a few protected bodies in accidents. I would NEVER give up using seatbelts, which protect in a variety of cases not covered by bags and also keep you comfortably anchored behind the wheel, but I would happily add on the protection of the airbag. I gather California is going to require bags regardless of Federal policy, so there should be further data on reliability before too long. -- scott preece uucp: ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece arpa: preece@gswd-vms
tjsmedley@watmum.UUCP (Trevor J. Smedley) (01/07/86)
If I weren't so sick of reading about airbags I'd make some sort of a
comment :-).
Trevor J. Smedley University of Waterloo
{decvax,allegra,ihnp4,clyde,utzoo}!watmum!tjsmedleybill@sigma.UUCP (Bill Swan) (01/08/86)
In article <472@eneevax.UUCP> hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) writes: >In article <1163@mtx5a.UUCP> mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) writes: >>I do. I want my three-point harness. I don't want a system that will knock >>me away from the controls when I may need the most control effort - and skill. >Ah, here we disagree. I really can't think of any skills I'd need in >the middle of a collision other than the need to make sure I haven't >reflexively locked my limbs, waiting for quadruple compound impact fractures. >It would be nice to know that something collapsible besides my arms is waiting >to cushion me. Dave, I was involved in a wreck a few years ago in which I was wearing my seatbelt. I was rear-ended and pushed into oncoming traffic. I had just enough enough time after impact to haul myself back upright (my seat had collapsed from the acceleration from 0 to about 40 MPH in 1/2 second or so) to grab the remains of my steering wheel and steer the car safely back to my side of the road to avoid further collisions. Without a belt, I would have gone out the rear window. With a bag, I could not have regained control quickly enough to avoid a head-on collision. -- William Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill
ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) (01/09/86)
> In article <472@eneevax.UUCP> hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) writes: > >In article <1163@mtx5a.UUCP> mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) writes: > >>I do. I want my three-point harness. I don't want a system that will knock > >>me away from the controls when I may need the most control effort - and skill > >Ah, here we disagree. I really can't think of any skills I'd need in > >the middle of a collision other than the need to make sure I haven't > I must disagree with you. The last thing I need in the middle of an accident, > while trying to maneuver to avoid other cars/guardrails/etc, is this silly bag Wait a minute, the air bag doesn't come out until you hit something, and if you don't want you "skills" and "reactions" obscurred by the bag, where were your "skills" and "reactions" to keep you out of the accident in the first place. Sorry guys, No validity in that argument. Try again! Addison ihnp4!ihlpa!ibyf My brother? I always thought of him as mom and dad's science project.
john@gcc-milo.ARPA (John Allred) (01/10/86)
In article <1006@ihlpa.UUCP> ibyf@ihlpa.UUCP (Scott) writes: > >Wait a minute, the air bag doesn't come out until you hit something, and if >you don't want you "skills" and "reactions" obscurred by the bag, where >were your "skills" and "reactions" to keep you out of the accident in the >first place. Sorry guys, No validity in that argument. Try again! Come now, Sir Addison. Although my skills and reactions are good, they will not keep me out of every possible accident. The other guy's action has much to do with whether I can avoid him or not. The situation that I was thinking of, where I didn't want a bag in my face, was this: after violently maneuvering to avoid an accident, I am faced with a situation where I must hit something. So, I choose to hit the lesser of the evils with a glancing blow. Presumably, I will still keep some forward motion, and I will have to control the vehicle after the accident. The bag in my face will significantly reduce my ability to control my vehicle. -- John Allred General Computer Company uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-milo!john "Oh, you'll probably get away with crucifixion." "CRUCIFIXION??" "Yeah, first offense."
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (01/11/86)
> I totally agree. In your article you outlined nearly all the things > that scare me about bags. > I'd also like to share with you a recurring nightmare of mine: An > emergency situation occurs while I am driving. I've trained for this > moment, my car is in good mechanical shape, I'm on good rubber, my > reflexes are good, I'm wearing a three point harness and I'm paying > attention. The emergency occurs and... something blinds me and pushes > me away from the controls. The irony that this something has been > installed by Uncle Sam for my safety does nothing to help me regain > control of my careening car. The nightmare usually ends with me and > the auto falling from a great height. > > No THANK you. > Ron Nightmares aside, why should an airbag activate before a collision?
schley@mmm.UUCP (Steve Schley) (01/13/86)
In article <581@sigma.UUCP> bill@sigma.UUCP (William Swan) writes: >In article <472@eneevax.UUCP> hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) writes: >>In article <1163@mtx5a.UUCP> mat@mtx5a.UUCP (m.terribile) writes: >>>I do. I want my three-point harness. I don't want a system that will knock >>>me away from the controls > >I was involved in a wreck a few years ago in which I was wearing my seatbelt. >I was rear-ended and pushed into oncoming traffic. I had just enough enough >time after impact to haul myself back upright (my seat had collapsed from the > >Without a belt, I would have gone out the rear window. With a bag, I could not >have regained control quickly enough to avoid a head-on collision. > First off, Bill, in a rear-end collision, I don't think an air bag would have been triggered. So the situation would have been no different, bag or no bag. Even if it had gone off, your only knowledge of the fact would have been a loose, deflated bag laying in your lap, and maybe the memory of a muffled "bang". These things inflate AND DEFLATE in a small fraction of a second! Tests have been run where volunteer drivers have had their bags remotely triggered while they were driving, and no one lost control, died of fright, were blinded (even momentarily), or had any interference with their driving. They reported that they heard a noise, and the next instant a deflated air bag was on their lap. They didn't even see it inflated, it happened so fast! So, if it had been inflated, you would not have been "knocked away from the controls" or affected at all. All of you people who are "bag-ophobic" should treat yourselves to a little reality-expanding trip to the library, where you can learn the truth about some of life's little complexities. Like air bags. And of course, keep wearing those three-point restraints (quaintly called "seat belts"). I, too, am looking forward to another layer of protection, and I think air bags provide this additional protection. -- Steve Schley ihnp4!mmm!schley
john@gcc-milo.ARPA (John Allred) (01/14/86)
In article <398@mmm.UUCP> schley@mmm.UUCP (Steve Schley) writes: > >And of course, keep wearing those three-point restraints (quaintly >called "seat belts"). I, too, am looking forward to another layer of >protection, and I think air bags provide this additional protection. After watching several of those high speed films of dummies in simulated accidents, I conclude that airbags buy me nothing over a properly used 3 point harness (that is, seat belt/shoulder belt, as opposed to seatbelts only,or a 2 point). What additional protection do you think that airbags give you? -- John Allred General Computer Company uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-milo!john "Oh, you'll probably get away with crucifixion." "CRUCIFIXION??" "Yeah, first offense."
dave@quest.UUCP (David Messer) (01/20/86)
> > I totally agree. In your article you outlined nearly all the things > > that scare me about bags. > > I'd also like to share with you a recurring nightmare of mine: An > > emergency situation occurs while I am driving. I've trained for this > > moment, my car is in good mechanical shape, I'm on good rubber, my > > reflexes are good, I'm wearing a three point harness and I'm paying > > attention. The emergency occurs and... something blinds me and pushes > > me away from the controls. The irony that this something has been > > installed by Uncle Sam for my safety does nothing to help me regain > > control of my careening car. The nightmare usually ends with me and > > the auto falling from a great height. > > > > No THANK you. > > Ron > Nightmares aside, why should an airbag activate before a collision? Why should any mechanical system fail? I have the same objection to airbags. The other interesting thing is that after it blinds you and pushes you away from the controls, it deflates just before you hit the tree. -- David Messer UUCP: ...ihnp4!quest!dave ...ihnp4!encore!vaxine!spark!14!415!sysop FIDO: 14/415 (SYSOP)