bzs@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) (01/17/86)
Just reading all these diesel comments (mostly negative) and wondered, does anyone remember *why* the started coming out? My memory says that it was in response to the gas crisis and the promise was that diesel would be less per/g then gas while delivering better mileage (also I guess that all meant better cruising range.) I also seem to remember criticism of the auto industry at that time for not having already started exploiting diesel while european manufacturers had been doing so for years (?). So, the question is: Were the technical reason(s) fuel/$$ conservation and (why) did they blow it, apparently badly from the gab on this list? Are the european (japanese et al) diesels better? -Barry Shein, Boston University
ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (01/17/86)
In article <864@bu-cs.UUCP>, bzs@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) writes: > Just reading all these diesel comments (mostly negative) and > wondered, does anyone remember *why* the started coming out? > At the time, diesel fuel was about $.10-$.15/gal. cheaper. It was at least as available as gas (remember gas lines??) and often more available. (I was in farm country where many farmers bought them. Only one fuel needed for all the equipment, and it was in *BIG* tanks right there on the farm ...) They also get *MUCH* better milage. Then there was the reputation for 300,000 mile engines (because of the European and Truck engines...) Also, smog laws had hit gas engines hard. They didn't get the milage they do now. Seems to me most big sedans were around 10-14 mpg then. My big Chevy truck was 8-10. A 30mpg diesel starts to look real good then. > So, the question is: Were the technical reason(s) fuel/$$ conservation > and (why) did they blow it, apparently badly from the gab on this > list? Are the european (japanese et al) diesels better? > They blew it by assuming that the American consumer could be sold a marketing line without good engineering to back it up. We were asked to pay the $2000 premium, for a well built diesel, to get a gas engine with an oil injector glued on and high compression heads/pistons. We did for a while ... though the reputation of the GM diesels have now dragged all of the diesel market with it. Oddly enough, their truck diesels are quite good. (Not the one put in pickups, I mean their REAL diesels.) The Benz has a wonderful engine. A salesman friend bought one used from his father-in-law with 150,000 mi on it. After he ran it up to >300,000 he sold for a new one. No engine work. Period. (Though 'tuneups' can be expensive on any Benz...) I have also heard truckers talking about taking apart their diesels at 400,000 mi to check them out, then putting it back together because it was still in spec. They weren't bragging at the time, either. This is what was expected from GM. This was not what was delivered. The European and Japanese and American TRUCK diesels should be generally good, but I would wonder about any 'diesel' engine designed for cars after 1970 regardless of country of origin. -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems This is the obligatory disclaimer of everything.
rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) (01/20/86)
[]
>...are the european diesels better?
You bet they are.
In addition to mileage delivered, you can expect extended engine
life. The thing is, you can't just throw any old design together
and expect more than a GM disaster. Spend many years at it and
you, too, can design a VW diesel.
--
"It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfgreview@drutx.UUCP (MillhamBD) (01/23/86)
> and expect more than a GM disaster. Spend many years at it and > you, too, can design a VW diesel. VW diesals are good? Try driving up I-70 from Denver behind a VW (or GM) diesal. If they will get out of the fast lane (when doing 30MPH) then I wouldn't choke to death following one. -------------------------------------------- Brian Millham AT & T Information Systems Denver, Co. ...!ihnp4!drutx!review
pwb@fritz.UUCP (Phil Bonesteele) (01/24/86)
In article <1611@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes: >[] >>...are the european diesels better? > >You bet they are. >In addition to mileage delivered, you can expect extended engine >life. The thing is, you can't just throw any old design together >and expect more than a GM disaster. Spend many years at it and >you, too, can design a VW diesel. > >-- > >"It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg The VW diesel engine was not designed as a `real' diesel, but is a conversion of the gasoline engine introduced with the Rabbit in the mid 70's (just as the early GM auto diesels were conversions). The European auto manufacturers that utilize diesel engines designed from the ground up as diesels (and distribute them in the U.S.) are Mecedes Benz, Peugot, and Volvo (I'm not sure about the new BMW diesel). These `real' diesel can deliver extremely long engine life provided they are cared for properly, though parts and labor tend to be VERY expensive. I owned a `78 diesel Rabbit for eight years and 150,000 miles. The rings started to allow substantial compression blowby at 80,000 miles. At 100,000 miles one cylinder lost its rings entirely. The engine was diligently maintained and cared for (I grew up on a farm ... I know how to care/maintain/rebuild diesel engines). When the earlier VW diesels developed substantial compression blowby, they tended to pick up oil from the overhead cam and blow it into the air intake (via the crankcase ventilation), causing a `runaway' (diesels can run on motor oil, imagine doing 65mph and accelerating down the freeway with your foot OFF the accelerator, at the head of a black cloud). This was enough of a problem that VW ordered a factory recall that inserted a baffle in the crankcase ventilator hose to slow down the air velocity (thus reducing the amount of oil picked up off the cam). Of course this didn't solve the real problem, it just caused the compression blowby to find an alternate route, like blowing the oil stick out. But it at least solved VW's lawsuit problem with VW diesel owners. If I ever get another diesel, it will be a `75 Mecedes Benz 240D. Phil Bonesteele FileNet Corp. Costa Mesa, CA {ucbvax,decvax,hplabs}!trwrb!felix!pwb