johnr@oceania.UUCP (John Robison) (05/23/91)
In article <SCOTT.91May21111334@mcs-server.gac.edu> scott@mcs-server.gac.edu (Scott Hess) writes: > > Then again, these machines would probably be running New Wave, which, > while not NextStep, is also not _X_, and has some nice extensions > for multiprocessing and the like. Maybe NeXT should be worried > (maybe NeXT should be working with them on this? :-). > Maybe they are... In fact, maybe they have their own plans for high power cpu's. Remember, less than a year ago you could oly buy a 030 cube with an optical drive. Now there are several NeXT options, 040, 2.88 Floppy, etc. With the speed of things on the hardware side, I think software and support would be a major issue. Also... On the HP debate (and all other future "MIPSStations") 78MIPS is worthless if developers can't easily port to it. Look at Improv's record time to port. They could not have easily made Improv for X windows (IMHO). We buy and develop on NeXT for NeXTStep and Technical support. Even if you are not a developer, what kind of user interface do you want?? Unless you are doing scientific number crunching, the extra MIPS really don't buy you much. As long as events are processed fast enough to keep pace with the user, that is fine. I would, however, say that I have no complaints with a faster NeXT machine. Right now we can only load them up with RAM for better performance. Switching to any other UNIX development platform, regardless of cost, would easily quadruple our development time. Development time is the bottom line for our workstation decisions. (Because our market is a total integrated solution- We sell the software AND machines, Improv and FramMaker obviously cannot also adopt this point of view.) Of course, the LOW COST of NeXT is also avery nice touch!! Later, John (Is this a developer's vote for FSF NeXTStep??) -- | A sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance | | of his own verbosity. --> We gladly accept NeXT Mail <-- | | Try: uunet!oceania!johnr* OR johnr@oceania.UUCP* | | *Not necessarily (mis)representing the company or myself! | -- | A sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance | | of his own verbosity. --> We gladly accept NeXT Mail <-- | | Try: uunet!oceania!johnr* OR johnr@oceania.UUCP* | | *Not necessarily (mis)representing the company or myself! |
quist@bambam.dsd.es.com (Doug Quist) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May22.201338.14280@oceania.UUCP>, johnr@oceania.UUCP (John Robison) writes: > In article <SCOTT.91May21111334@mcs-server.gac.edu> scott@mcs-server.gac.edu > (Scott Hess) writes: > > Then again, these machines would probably be running New Wave, which, > > while not NextStep, is also not _X_, and has some nice extensions > > for multiprocessing and the like. Maybe NeXT should be worried > > (maybe NeXT should be working with them on this? :-). > > > Also... On the HP debate (and all other future "MIPSStations") > 78MIPS is worthless if developers can't easily port to it. > Look at Improv's record time to port. They could not have > easily made Improv for X windows (IMHO). I agree here... > We buy and develop on NeXT for NeXTStep and Technical support. > Even if you are not a developer, what kind of user interface do > you want?? Unless you are doing scientific number crunching, the > extra MIPS really don't buy you much. As long as events are processed > fast enough to keep pace with the user, that is fine. This is probably his point. Maybe events are NOT being processes fast enough to keep pace with the user. I spent the weekend playing with a NeXTColor w/ 400MB disk and 16MB of RAM. Before people flame me, IT WAS WONDERFUL! I must admit that there were times when I wished for my Series 5 Solbourne (22MIPS SPARC compatible) because that is the kind of response that I'm familiar with at the office. I guess we're always looking for bigger, faster and neater computer! -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Douglas B. Quist -- speaking only for myself, of course. quist@dsd.es.com or decwrl!esunix!quist or utah-cs!esunix!quist Funny how your feet in dreams never touch the earth - HEART ---------------------------------------------------------------------
jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) (06/01/91)
>> Also... On the HP debate (and all other future "MIPSStations") >> 78MIPS is worthless if developers can't easily port to it. >> Look at Improv's record time to port. They could not have >> easily made Improv for X windows (IMHO). . . . >I spent the weekend playing with a NeXTColor w/ 400MB disk and 16MB >of RAM. Before people flame me, IT WAS WONDERFUL! I must admit that >there were times when I wished for my Series 5 Solbourne (22MIPS SPARC >compatible) because that is the kind of response that I'm familiar with >at the office. > >I guess we're always looking for bigger, faster and neater computer! The reason to buy a NeXT is the software/Mach/interface builder etc. Hardware can usually be made faster. NeXT hasn't hit the ceiling yet and with some OS tweaking and multiple CPU boards, the machine could scream. Shame it can't outperform a SPARC though :-) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ORGANIZATION: BLETCH (Bletcherous League of Evil Twisted Computer Hackers) UUCP: kzin!speaker@mimsy.umd.edu INTERNET: jtn@potomac.ads.com SPOKEN: Dark Hacker PHONE: (703) 243-1611 TWISTED DIABOLICAL LAUGH: Mwahh ah ha ha hah ha ha ha! The Mythos of Dark Hacker: "Controlled by the sinister and shadowy "suits" Dark Hacker now employs the tools of computer science to free himself from the suit's will. By day he is a lackey... but at night when the city sleeps he becomes.... DARK HACKER!" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
cnh5730@maraba.tamu.edu (Charles Herrick) (06/02/91)
In article <1991Jun1.003344.2109@potomac.ads.com> jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) writes:
Shame it can't outperform a SPARC though :-)
I upgraded my B'Land cube to '040 and added 8MB RAM to bring it up to
16MB and I'd pit my cube against a similarly-equipped SPARC 1 anyday.
As for massive power, the only thing you need is a big fast CPU chip.
There are lots available on the market today (SPARC, Moto 88K, MIPS,
etc), so adding a more powerful chip to keep in front of the "Joneses"
is quite obviously a no-brainer. To me, it's what you can make that
CPU do that's important... thus, I bought a NeXT.thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark R. Thomsen) (06/02/91)
John T. Nelson writes
Shame it can't outperform a SPARC though :-)
But, can you, using a 68040 NeXT, get more work done or write
a comparable program faster than the guy using the SPARCstation?
Do you feel better about the quality of your work?
One more thought on this thread. My group is starting to evolve
a strategy towards computers that assumes there will be multiple
processors in a computer system. The NeXTcube w/ NeXTdimension
is an example - you have a 68040, a 56001, and an i860 in one
box. The CPU chips are swallowing up the computer board. Given
this we catagorize processors into
the flexible master - runs the control program, coordinates,
has the general event/tasking loops, and is mandatory
the powerful but intelligent slaves - runs more dedicated
programs, has more arithmetic performance and probably more
bandwidth than the master, and is closer to a peripheral
including the screen
the idiot savants - more algorithmically speciallized and
tends to run small programs or operates based on parameter
settings
In a NeXT you have the 68040 master, the i860 'intellislave',
and the 56001 savant. The C-Cube would have been (will be?) a
savant. Because of this increase in the number of programmable
components in the computer system, and that i860s and DSP
chips will evolve in parallel to more standard CPU
architectures, and that the distributed approach allows
superior system performance, our excitement over a new hot
chip is a bit cooler than years past. The CPU might do
an FFT faster than another CPU, but wouldn't you rather have
that done on a DSP that will still outperform the fastest
CPUs for those tasks? In a stereo, unless your preamp is
bad, buying a better preamp might not make the result much
better - a system assessment.
Mark R. Thomsenjtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) (06/04/91)
In article <28485109.67E3@deneva.sdd.trw.com> thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark R. Thomsen) writes: >John T. Nelson writes > Shame it can't outperform a SPARC though :-) > >But, can you, using a 68040 NeXT, get more work done or write >a comparable program faster than the guy using the SPARCstation? >Do you feel better about the quality of your work? Why bother asking when I quite clearly pointed out in the same posting that the reason you buy a NeXT is the software environment. Geeze, do people on the net have a chip on their shoulders or something? Its simply a shame that you don't get more speed out of the cube. That might change in the future. Maybe Mach can be tightened up a bit. I also pointed out in the same posting that it should be possible to runn several CPU's on the NeXT. This would be great particularly if third-party vendors develop cheap plug-in boards. >In a NeXT you have the 68040 master, the i860 'intellislave', >and the 56001 savant. The C-Cube would have been (will be?) a >savant. Because of this increase in the number of programmable >components in the computer system, and that i860s and DSP >chips will evolve in parallel to more standard CPU >architectures, and that the distributed approach allows >superior system performance, our excitement over a new hot >chip is a bit cooler than years past. Justifiably so too. Chips will get faster but there is an upper limit both theoretical and practical (you don't want heat-sinks the size of a Winabago). Multiprocessing is the way to go for cost-effective horsepower. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ORGANIZATION: BLETCH (Bletcherous League of Evil Twisted Computer Hackers) UUCP: kzin!speaker@mimsy.umd.edu INTERNET: jtn@potomac.ads.com SPOKEN: Dark Hacker PHONE: (703) 243-1611 TWISTED DIABOLICAL LAUGH: Mwahh ah ha ha hah ha ha ha! The Mythos of Dark Hacker: "Controlled by the sinister and shadowy "suits" Dark Hacker now employs the tools of computer science to free himself from the suit's will. By day he is a lackey... but at night when the city sleeps he becomes.... DARK HACKER!" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=