scd@math.ufl.edu (Steve C Donahue) (06/12/91)
I am currently attending the summer USENIX conference in Nashville. The
theme of the conference is "MULTIMEDIA FOR NOW AND THE FUTURE". I was
amazed to find that NeXT does not have a vendor booth. One of the strong
points of the NeXT is the fact that it lends itself so well to multimedia
applications. The only NeXT machines that I have seen are MIT's
NeXTstation color and Pencom's cube (demonstrating co-Xist).
WAKE UP NeXT! Those of us who own your machines know how good they are.
People wonder why NeXTs have not sold better than they have. Exposure is
the key to sales. This conference would have been a good place to increase
your exposure.
No flames please. I am not NeXT bashing. I am simply questioning their
marketing strategies.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.
-- Albert Einstein
Steve Donahue Internet: scd@cis.ufl.edu
CIS Engineering NeXTmail: uflorida!thecube!steve
University of Floridaeps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (06/12/91)
In article <SCD.91Jun12013409@leadbelly.math.ufl.edu> scd@math.ufl.edu (Steve C Donahue) writes: >I am currently attending the summer USENIX conference in Nashville. The >theme of the conference is "MULTIMEDIA FOR NOW AND THE FUTURE". I was >amazed to find that NeXT does not have a vendor booth. One of the strong >points of the NeXT is the fact that it lends itself so well to multimedia >applications. They were also conspicuously absent from last year's InterOp, although a handful of NeXT employees were in attendance. One of them said that "Steve hates these kinds of shows." It wasn't clear what "these kinds" referred to, but my interpretation is "catering to the computer-literate and technically competent" as opposed to Joe-Moron business customer who wants to know when "all that nifty stuff will be available for Microsoft Windows." >WAKE UP NeXT! Those of us who own your machines know how good they are. >People wonder why NeXTs have not sold better than they have. Exposure is >the key to sales. This conference would have been a good place to increase >your exposure. No argument here. >No flames please. I am not NeXT bashing. I am simply questioning their >marketing strategies. Me too. -=EPS=-
samurai@cs.mcgill.ca (Darcy BROCKBANK) (06/12/91)
In article <1709@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >In article <SCD.91Jun12013409@leadbelly.math.ufl.edu> scd@math.ufl.edu (Steve C Donahue) writes: >>WAKE UP NeXT! Those of us who own your machines know how good they are. >>People wonder why NeXTs have not sold better than they have. Exposure is >>the key to sales. This conference would have been a good place to increase >>your exposure. > >No argument here. Nor here. I had this conversation with my brother who owns an IBM. Me: Boy, you should see the machine I work on at school. Him: What's that? Me: A NeXT machine. Him: What kind of NEC is that? Me: No. A NeXT machine. A NeXTstation. Him: Never heard of NEC making anything like that. Me: NeXT! As in 'next door.' Him: Oh. Never heard of them. Probably a fly by night operation. I'll stick with what I have. But if he ever just SAW the thing, he would fall in love with it. It's kinda like butting a Maserati next to a VW bug. One just LOOKS like it was made to fly. Regardless of what it can actually do. So get out there and inform the public!! Let `em know you have a winner. - db
scd@math.ufl.edu (Steve C Donahue) (06/13/91)
As a follow-up to my first post:
NeXT is not completely absent from the conference. Thy just don't have a
vendor booth demonstrating the machines.
I took a tutorial Monday that Avadis Tevanian, Jr. from NeXT taught. It was
a Mach overview. Quite informative. But he only mentioned NeXT a couple
of times. But then a tutorial on Mach is hardly the place to plug NeXT
products.
There is also going to be a multimedia demonstration from 2:00-3:30 on
Thursday. It is entitled "Software Technology at NeXT". It will be
presented by Avadis Tevanian, Trey Matteson, David Jaffe, and Bryan
Yamamoto (all from NeXT, Inc.). This should be interesting. However an
hour and a half of exposure at a one week conference is just not
enough (IMHO).
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.
-- Albert Einstein
Steve Donahue Internet: scd@cis.ufl.edu
CIS Engineering NeXTmail: uflorida!thecube!steve
University of Floridaglenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (06/13/91)
Steve C Donahue writes > > I am currently attending the summer USENIX conference in Nashville. The > theme of the conference is "MULTIMEDIA FOR NOW AND THE FUTURE". I was > amazed to find that NeXT does not have a vendor booth. > WAKE UP NeXT! This conference would have been a good place to increase > your exposure. NeXT doesn't think of themselves as producing a UNIX computer, alas. They think of themselves as making a personal computer (or personal workstation, if you please) that just happens to run [a flavor of] UNIX. It's too bad, in the large sense, because it's a great UNIX platform, among other things. -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
louie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (06/13/91)
In article <526@heaven.woodside.ca.us> glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) writes: >NeXT doesn't think of themselves as producing a UNIX computer, alas. >They think of themselves as making a personal computer (or personal >workstation, if you please) that just happens to run [a flavor of] UNIX. >It's too bad, in the large sense, because it's a great UNIX platform, >among other things. Its too bad that they feel that way. *Everyone* that I know (including myself) that has personally bought a NeXT platform for themselves has done so because its a good UNIX platform FIRST, and a personal workstation/GUI/whiz-bang box second. For instance, the choices that we have to consider are if we're going to buy a NeXTstation for home or a Sparcstation SLC. We're not making a choice between a NeXTstation and a Mac something-or-other. They're just not in the same catagory as far as we're concerned. And these folks voted with their wallets; perhaps NeXT should address their needs and their perspective a bit more. louie
garton@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Bradford Garton) (06/13/91)
In article <SCD.91Jun12160721@leadbelly.math.ufl.edu> scd@math.ufl.edu (Steve C Donahue) writes: > >As a follow-up to my first post: > >NeXT is not completely absent from the conference. Thy just don't have a >vendor booth demonstrating the machines. (info on NeXT presentations at Usenix deleted ...) >However an >hour and a half of exposure at a one week conference is just not >enough (IMHO). True, and I also lament the lack of NeXT marketing. I would *love* to see a NeXT rejoinder to the "Star Wars flying-through-the-jungle" Sun commercial! However, I wanted to point out that the keynote address at Usenix is being givien by Paul Lansky, who creates all of his snazzy sounds these days on NeXTs. Anyone get a chance to hear Paul's talk? Any impressions/reviews? Brad Garton Music Department garton@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) (06/14/91)
Same here and for everyone that i know. The NeXT is the first true UNIX
machine that i can afford to run at home. The choice was between a Sun or a
HP or a NeXT at home, not between a Mac or a NeXT. I could have gotten a Mac
years ago but it is not a UNIX box.
--
===============================================================================
Internet: simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu
Othernet: simmons@hoofers.lake.mendota
--- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
According to the HitchHikers guide to the galaxy, the one thing we
*cannot* afford to have is a sense of perspective.
===============================================================================pfkeb@kaon.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Paul Kunz) (06/14/91)
In article <526@heaven.woodside.ca.us> glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) writes:
NeXT doesn't think of themselves as producing a UNIX computer, alas.
They think of themselves as making a personal computer (or personal
workstation, if you please) that just happens to run [a flavor of] UNIX.
It's too bad, in the large sense, because it's a great UNIX platform,
among other things.
--
Glenn Reid RightBrain Software
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers
..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
NeXT did run a few center-fold ads in UNIX Today! I found it curious
that they were pushing Improv and other features of the machine. The
ad never mentioned, however, UNIX.sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) (06/15/91)
In article <SIMMONS.91Jun13132534@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >Same here and for everyone that i know. The NeXT is the first true UNIX >machine that i can afford to run at home. The choice was between a Sun or a >HP or a NeXT at home, not between a Mac or a NeXT. I could have gotten a Mac >years ago but it is not a UNIX box. Of course, you could have gotten a cheap '386 clone and run unix on that for about half the money. -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
dmg@ssc-vax (David M Geary) (06/15/91)
In article <SIMMONS.91Jun13132534@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >Same here and for everyone that i know. The NeXT is the first true UNIX >machine that i can afford to run at home. The choice was between a Sun or a >HP or a NeXT at home, not between a Mac or a NeXT. I could have gotten a Mac >years ago but it is not a UNIX box. > Ok, I do *not* want any Amiga vs. NeXT garbage postings cluttering this newsgroup, but I would just like to point out that you can buy an Amiga3000UX for less than a NeXT. Personally, I wouldn't buy one (an Amiga3000Ux, that is), because, if I'm gonna sink ~$4000 into a workstation, it'd be a NeXT. However, I just wanted to say that there *is* an alternative to NeXT, Sun and HP. PS: Note that I did not cross-post to any Amiga newsgroups. Last time, we had a rash of "the Amiga's better than Next" postings, and I can do without that again ... -- |~~~~~~~~~~ David Geary, Boeing Aerospace, Seattle, WA. ~~~~~~~~~~| |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| |~~~~~~ Seattle: America's most attractive city... to the *jetstream* ~~~~~~| |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) (06/15/91)
In article <1991Jun14.194907.2960@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: Path: doug.cae.wisc.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!uunet!kithrup!sef From: sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next Date: 14 Jun 91 19:49:07 GMT References: <526@heaven.woodside.ca.us> <1991Jun13.142906.28474@ni.umd.edu> <SIMMONS.91Jun13132534@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Lines: 14 In article <SIMMONS.91Jun13132534@rigel.neep.wisc.edu> simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu (Kim Simmons) writes: >Same here and for everyone that i know. The NeXT is the first true UNIX >machine that i can afford to run at home. The choice was between a Sun or a >HP or a NeXT at home, not between a Mac or a NeXT. I could have gotten a Mac >years ago but it is not a UNIX box. Of course, you could have gotten a cheap '386 clone and run unix on that for about half the money. -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others. 12 1) System V yes, but i wanted BSD. I also wanted the gnu stuff (in particular i do a lot with emacs, i use gcc on other workstations), X11 (NeXTstep is a good replacement, however i still have the public domain X11 for times when i need it) a large monitor for looking at lots of source code at a time, TeX/LaTeX which i use a lot + a nice TeX previewer, Mathematica for free also helps (saves me about $1000 on a real workstation). I also wanted the network stuff for writing TCP/IP software. In other words i wanted something comparable to a Sun or Decstation that i have at work. So are you suggesting that a '386 clone is equivalent to a Sun or a Decstation. If so i'll pass this on to the local sales Droids from Sun and Dec. PS. Also, having an afordable Laser printer at home does wonders for my social life, plus it is much easier to impress people and make friends with a NeXT than with a '386. -- =============================================================================== Internet: simmons@rigel.neep.wisc.edu Othernet: simmons@hoofers.lake.mendota --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- According to the HitchHikers guide to the galaxy, the one thing we *cannot* afford to have is a sense of perspective. ===============================================================================
louie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (06/15/91)
In article <1991Jun14.194907.2960@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: >Of course, you could have gotten a cheap '386 clone and run unix on that for >about half the money. But not a "real" (i.e., BSD) based UNIX. Of course, some of us have strong feelings about flavors of UNIX and what we prefer. I respect other folks decisions to be wrong about their choice of UNIXes :-) louie
lacsap@media.mit.edu (Pascal Chesnais) (06/16/91)
In article <SCD.91Jun12013409@leadbelly.math.ufl.edu> scd@math.ufl.edu (Steve C Donahue) writes: > > I am currently attending the summer USENIX conference in Nashville. The > theme of the conference is "MULTIMEDIA FOR NOW AND THE FUTURE". I was > amazed to find that NeXT does not have a vendor booth. One of the strong > points of the NeXT is the fact that it lends itself so well to multimedia > applications. The only NeXT machines that I have seen are MIT's > NeXTstation color and Pencom's cube (demonstrating co-Xist). [...] > Steve Donahue Internet: scd@cis.ufl.edu > CIS Engineering NeXTmail: uflorida!thecube!steve > University of Florida USENIX was boring, NeXT saved itself money by not having a booth, but instead providing a spectacular live presentation led Avie Tevanian, Trey Matteson, David Jaffe, and Bryan Yamamoto. I find that one big coherent presentation is far more valuable than spending three days on the USENIX exhibition floor (which I did, it sucks). pasc -- Pascal Chesnais, Research Specialist, Electronic Publishing Group Media Laboratory, E15-351, 20 Ames Street, Cambridge, Ma, 02139 (617) 253-0311 email: lacsap@plethora.media.mit.edu (NeXT)
thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark R. Thomsen) (06/16/91)
Steve C Donahue writes NeXT is not completely absent from the conference. Thy just don't have a vendor booth demonstrating the machines. I took a tutorial Monday that Avadis Tevanian, Jr. from NeXT taught. It was a Mach overview. Quite informative. But he only mentioned NeXT a couple of times. But then a tutorial on Mach is hardly the place to plug NeXT products. There is also going to be a multimedia demonstration from 2:00-3:30 on Thursday. It is entitled "Software Technology at NeXT". It will be presented by Avadis Tevanian, Trey Matteson, David Jaffe, and Bryan Yamamoto (all from NeXT, Inc.). This should be interesting. However an hour and a half of exposure at a one week conference is just not enough (IMHO). This is not that bad of a representation for a small company. But it does bring another question to the fore. When will NeXT start advertising at a higher level? They plunk an ad in a magazine from time to time and let the press do the rest. Now that the press is almost universally positive (or at least non-negative) and they are selling, shouldn't they raise their profile a bit? Showing up at trade conferences is part of the profile game. BTW, last week Steve Jobs did show at Digital World in L.A. to give a speech and NeXT did have a booth for all three days. I suffer from the same bias as most of you, but the NeXT machines did make most of the other equipment and software look, well, a little bit bland. When I happened to attend the NeXTs had 15 people. Any other booth I practically could walk up without seeing anyone but the company folk. NeXT could help themselves by being present. Mark R. Thomsen
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (06/17/91)
In article <1991Jun14.194907.2960@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
Of course, you could have gotten a cheap '386 clone and run unix on that for
about half the money.
Of course, you would only have a VGA monitor, no DSP, no
floating-point co-processor, no window system(SCO Windows ?!), no
display postscript, no word processor, no Interface Builder(actually,
I saw one for $7500 (yes, $7500) for Motif, no Appkit. Perhaps you
could tell me about all the other software that you don't get? How
many DMA channels do you get on a cheap 386 these days?
Of course, for less than $1000 I can get an 80286 and run MS DOS 5.0
and Microsoft Windows 3.0.
-Mikekari@finn (Kari Karhi) (06/18/91)
In article <1991Jun14.194907.2960@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: > Of course, you could have gotten a cheap '386 clone and run unix on that for > about half the money. And what OS would you be running? I know I can get the hardware for about $1,700.00 (half of $3,500, right?), though the monitor most probably would NOT be 1120x900 (but would be color!). But when I last looked, SCO Unix was also $1,700.00 with X-windows, and ISC was about the same ball mark (including the development environment and X Windows). Lately UHS (Unix House ?) has been offering a SysV R4, but again at about the same price. Do you know of anything cheaper, with about the same functionality? (Please do not mention Coherent ;-) ) Of course if you can get a "free" copy, the story is different. Unfortunately that is not the option for a lot of us. And then there are all those wonderful NeXTstep apps like IB and bundled software and PS and NeXTstep and ... Kari Karhi Pencom Software (512)343-1111 pensoft!kari@cs.utexas.edu
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (06/18/91)
Michael D Mellinger writes > > In article <1991Jun14.194907.2960@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: > > > Of course, you could have gotten a cheap '386 clone.... > > Of course, you would only have a VGA monitor, no DSP, no ... > > Of course, for less than $1000 I can get an 80286 and run MS DOS 5.0 .... 'course it's five minutes to Wapner. 'course it's four minutes to Wapner. this is *definitely* not my underwear.... [apologies to Dustin Hoffman] -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us NeXT/PostScript developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) (06/18/91)
In article <1991Jun17.194851.18477@pensoft.uucp> pensoft!kari@cs.utexas.edu writes: First off, your posting software is broken. From: kari@finn or somesuch is not legal. >Do you know of anything >cheaper, with about the same functionality? Listen *very* carefully: I have *never* said you could get anything resembling the NeXT for anything less than what NeXT is selling them for. NeXT is selling a great machine at a great price. But if *all* you want is a unix machine for your very own, you do *not* need a NeXT. All you need is a '386 machine with about 100Mbytes of disk, a hercules monitor, and 4MBytes of RAM. You can run xenix on that *extremely* well. It's a fine unix (or unix-like) box, and can be had for, if you do your shopping well enough, less than $2k (buy a used OS, for example). If you want Mach, or NeXT Step, or a DSP, or the applications, you should get a NeXT. But the person I followed up to the first time said that the NeXT was the only available cheap unix machine he could get for home. He was wrong. Why don't you people *read* the original article before assuming you knew what I was saying? -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
kari@finn (Kari Karhi) (06/19/91)
In article <1991Jun18.085143.29619@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: > In article <1991Jun17.194851.18477@pensoft.uucp> pensoft!kari@cs.utexas.edu writes: > > First off, your posting software is broken. From: kari@finn or somesuch is not > legal. True, we are not on any nets, therefore we did not set up domains. The ReplyTo line is still correct, did you have a problem replying to me? Please email to me if so (using the ReplyTo address or signature). > > >Do you know of anything > >cheaper, with about the same functionality? > > Listen *very* carefully: I have *never* said you could get anything > resembling the NeXT for anything less than what NeXT is selling them for. > NeXT is selling a great machjjjjjjjjjjjjjine at a great price. But if *all* you want is > a unix machine for your very own, you do *not* need a NeXT. All you need is > a '386 machine with about 100Mbytes of disk, a hercules monitor, and 4MBytes > of RAM. You can run xenix on that *extremely* well. It's a fine unix (or > unix-like) box, and can be had for, if you do your shopping well enough, > less than $2k (buy a used OS, for example). My question was whether you knew of some UN*X OS comparable in functionality to SCO or ICS UN*X, but cheaper (UN*X, X11R?, development environment)? About a year ago I put together a 386 box w/ 4MB RAM, a 300MB disk, ICS OS w/ X11R3. By carefully choosing, I managed to put it together for a little over $4,000. Now if I did not use X Windows, I admit I could have put it together somewhat cheaper. Also, prices have dropped from a year ago. I still dispute your below $2k price on a system a UN*X hacker would want to live with (used equipment prices are comparing apples to oranges). But I agree that the cheapest UN*X system you can buy costs much less than a NeXT (but you won't catch me using one). > > If you want Mach, or NeXT Step, or a DSP, or the applications, you should > get a NeXT. But the person I followed up to the first time said that the > NeXT was the only available cheap unix machine he could get for home. He > was wrong. Ok, agreed! > > Why don't you people *read* the original article before assuming you knew > what I was saying? It's not what I said, it's what I meant to say. :-) Ok, Ok, I apologise, I read the original post a day earlier, not when I was responding to you. My basic mistake was assuming you meant new prices and a system that a UN*X hacker could live with. And I had my year ago buying spree to fall back on to compare prices. Kari Karhi Pencom Software (512)343-1111 pensoft!kari@cs.utexas.edu