bhead@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca (Bradley Head) (06/21/91)
In article <1991Jun20.124105.11139@umbc3.umbc.edu> jack@umbc4.umbc.edu (Jack Suess) writes: > >I would like to propose that next release the full OS developement environment > >on CD-ROM. Since CD-ROM drives can be had <$400 and the mastering cost is > >very low for the media a cd-rom should only add a small amount to the cost. > While we are on the topic of CD-ROM drives, I'd like to ask to what level does NeXT support CD-ROM? Sure there's the directory /usr/filesystems/CDROM.fs that seems to have some custom mounting tool, but where is this documented? I tried to get a Toshiba CD ROM and a SUN (from an IPC) to work with the NeXT -- no luck. The Toshiba wasn't even recognized at boot time. The SUN seemed to automount, then the system asked if I'd like to initialize the unreadable disk...initialize a CD-ROM disk??? - I think not! So I played around with the CDROM.util program in /usr/filesystems/CDROM.fs, but without any luck. If anyone has managed to get any CD-ROM drives working and reading either of the two format standards (9660 or High Sierra), please let me know. -Brad -- -- Bradley Head, Headfirst Software, Vancouver BC, Canada NeXTmail : <bhead@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca> Non-NeXTmail : <h5346866@rick.cs.ubc.ca>
anderson@dogie.macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) (06/21/91)
In article <1991Jun20.200216.5173@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca> bhead@hfs.questor.wimsey.bc.ca writes: >If anyone has managed to get any CD-ROM drives working and reading either of >the two format standards (9660 or High Sierra), please let me know. Please summarize what you discover. -- Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
emt@leland.Stanford.EDU (Taleff) (06/21/91)
CD ROM for system software In response to some recent postings, at least one person at NeXT seems to think that CD ROM would be a practical means of system software distribution. I had the recent pleasure of being interviewed by a quite conscientious lady employed by NeXT in some sort of marketing position (unfortunately, having forgotten her name). She was working on a project concerning what NeXT could do to encourage students to use, and buy, their products. I must say that I was very impressed by what appeared to be the genuine concern that she expressed in having NeXT please their current users as well as draw new users. She asked various questions concerning why I use a NeXT (which I am sure all of you are familiar with in this newsgroup) as well as what improvements and products that I, as a user, would like to see. Of my responses to the later, topmost was to see NeXT distribute the extended software release on *CD ROM*, as well as subsequent upgrades at the *cost* of the medium, which should be very low for CD ROM. This of course would also necessitate having a compatible CD ROM drive, for under $500, which seems like a reasonable figure. The interviewer seemed very encouraged by this idea, as it would solve several of the problems which NeXT is currently having: * software distribution * cost and availability of distribution media as well as solving several user problems: * backing up that huge hard drive (would only have to backup personal files if everything else was on CD ROM, and that could be done on floppies for many users) * cost of future upgrades is cheap if only paying for the CD ROM * eating up hard disk space for references (how about CD ROM tech docs, Shakespeare, Websters, etc...) for those that can't afford a huge hard disk (like me!!!) * minor upgrades might be much more readily available for those who need their bug fixes Somebody is already saying, "But CD ROM is too slow to boot from." It is, but with one 3MB floppy the NeXT can be booted, then the rest is just a matter of somebody at NeXT writting a convenient program like Installer to upgrade the system on the HD from CD ROM. If the people at NeXT are smart enough to listen to this bright interviewer, then maybe we can expect an end to our woes of waiting months for software upgrades and worries of not being able to backup our hard drives if there is no network available. I certainly hope that her voice is heard. Eric Taleff Mechanical Engineer / Materials Engineer Stanford University emt@leland.stanford.edu
jwright@cfht.hawaii.edu (Jim Wright) (06/21/91)
emt@leland.Stanford.EDU (Taleff) writes: >Somebody is already saying, "But CD ROM is too slow to boot from." >It is, but [ ... ] It is not. Try booting from a tape drive if you want to see slow. I wouldn't want to boot from a CDROM daily, but for bringing up a new OS release it is great. I agree with you. NeXT, we want CDROM. -- Jim Wright jwright@cfht.hawaii.edu Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope Corp.
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (06/21/91)
I think the recent postings in the thread really miss the mark. First of all, there's tremendous resentment among early adopters of NeXT's "future software will only be available on floppy" policy, and being forced to purchase floppy drives for their ODful systems in order to continue using them--drives that often don't work well and are fairly expensive--and not even being given the option to use the FD controller on the '040 upgrades they were all but "forced" to buy. The *last* thing in the world they want to see is NeXT commit to yet-another-incompatible storage medium. Very few people in the Bay Area seem terribly interested in CD-ROM for a variety of reasons (in no particular order): + bad experiences with Apple and Sun CD products + slow + not user-writable + relatively expensive hardware + large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market price" compared with just about any other storage media + most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS + unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM products Now if NeXT wants to offer software on Exabyte 8200 cartridges, I'm listening. :-) -=EPS=-
brian@umbc4.umbc.edu (Brian Cuthie) (06/21/91)
In article <1769@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >I think the recent postings in the thread really miss the mark. >First of all, there's tremendous resentment among early adopters >of NeXT's "future software will only be available on floppy" >policy, and being forced to purchase floppy drives for their >ODful systems in order to continue using them--drives that often >don't work well and are fairly expensive--and not even being >given the option to use the FD controller on the '040 upgrades >they were all but "forced" to buy. The *last* thing in the >world they want to see is NeXT commit to yet-another-incompatible >storage medium. Well, I totally disagree. I have been a Registered Mac developer for many years now and it was nothing less than great when apple finally decided to stop inundating me with floppies and put everything on CD. It's not true that everyone *has* to get a CD drive. For one thing, if only one in ten owners and the support centers (I assume that such things exist although their existence is mearly unsubstantiated rumor) had them, then it would be *much* easier for almost everyone to get updates. CD's cost a wopping $1.50 to manufacture and the mastering cost is< $2000. On this one, 600 mbyte, $1.50 piece of media you can cram a lot of -stuff-. Perhaps NeXT has all kinds of other goodies they'd like to ship us but don't have an acceptable mechanism. One thing apple does that is great, is they put alpha and beta copies of interesting, up-and-coming, software on developer distributions CDs because it's essentially a free ride. May be NeXT would do the same, given the opportunity. > >Very few people in the Bay Area seem terribly interested in >CD-ROM for a variety of reasons (in no particular order): >+ bad experiences with Apple and Sun CD products >+ slow Who cares !? It's faster than a floopy, and it's cheap. >+ not user-writable BFD. We are only suggesting it as a mechanism for software distribution, so cheap, that NeXT would be encouraged to send all kinds of "goodies". >+ relatively expensive hardware If you think $400 is expensive for 600 mbyte removable media (albeit write protected) then you haven't priced tape backup systems lately :-) >+ large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market > price" compared with just about any other storage media This argument doesn't even belong here. We buy things everyday that have large differences between manufacturing cost and "fair market value" as you put it. Software is a good example. Telephones are another. Shall I go on ? >+ most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software > that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS Oh, and I suppose that simply not having it available at all on the NeXT will certainly save us from this. I must admit, not having that CD-ROM drive on my NeXT makes me feel good that there aren't all those CDs out there that I can't read. Of course, I can't read *any* of them because there's no drive support. >+ unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM > products WHAT !? > >Now if NeXT wants to offer software on Exabyte 8200 cartridges, >I'm listening. :-) YUCK! Geez, if anything, make it DAT. 8mm drives are going to go the way of 78RPM records within a few years. DAT is *so* much nicer. For one thing, it's intrinsically digital. For another, it can be searched at >200 times normal record/play speeds and supports start stop operation. > > -=EPS=- There. Now I feel better. Really. -brian
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/21/91)
In article <1769@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: > I think the recent postings in the thread really miss the mark. > First of all, there's tremendous resentment among early adopters > of NeXT's "future software will only be available on floppy" > policy, and being forced to purchase floppy drives for their > ODful systems in order to continue using them--drives that often > don't work well and are fairly expensive--and not even being > given the option to use the FD controller on the '040 upgrades > they were all but "forced" to buy. The *last* thing in the > world they want to see is NeXT commit to yet-another-incompatible > storage medium. The mistake was the "future software will only be available on floppy" decision. I've had problems with the floppy drives too, and I can't imagine how you can possibly list that as a reason to *stay* with floppy drives. I don't think NeXT should completely abandon floppy distributions, but I personally would much rather get distributions on CD-ROM. > Very few people in the Bay Area seem terribly interested in > CD-ROM for a variety of reasons (in no particular order): > + bad experiences with Apple and Sun CD products Must be the bay area. I've had great success with Apple CD products. Certainly better success than I've had with NeXT floppy distributions. I don't do anything with Suns, but I know that the guys here who do are very keen on getting CD-ROM drives for those machines. > + slow It isn't faster than a hard drive, but if you're comparing it to *floppies* then it isn't too bad. > + not user-writable That's actually one of the reasons that I *want* distributions on CD-ROM! It'd be great to know that I have absolutely pristine versions of the distribution files available. I can concentrate my backups on just those files that won't be on a CD-ROM, which means I could probably have complete backups by using nothing but the CD-ROM distribution and a handful of floppies. > + relatively expensive hardware Mac's manage to get CD-ROM players for $500. That isn't all that bad. (in my situation it would be particularly nice if NeXT's and Macs could use the same CD-ROM drive, of course :-). > + large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market > price" compared with just about any other storage media That is purely a decision of the person selling the CD. If NeXT wanted to distribute CD-ROM's for $20 they could do it and make a profit at it. Compare that to the cost of 20 of these damn 2.88 meg floppies. 20 floppies holds less than 60 meg. The ETO I received in the mail today has 484 Meg used up (and 150 meg "free", as if you could use it...). I'd *hate* to get that much info on floppies. I don't care about the disparity between the manufacturing costs and the market price, what I care about is the market price. > + most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software > that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS Gee, I wonder if that just *might* be because MSDOS and Macs *use* CD-ROM's, while NeXT doesn't officially recognize that the medium exists. You're not going to solve this problem by avoiding CD-ROM's! Why are more CD-ROM's showing up on Macs? Because Apple is pushing CD-ROMs for their major distributions (such as A/UX, ETO and "d e v e l o p"). That causes people to buy the CD-ROM players, and that creates a viable market for those who want to press "interesting" CD-ROMs. And Apple has certainly done a good enough job with ETO that it justified the purchase of a CD-ROM drive. Surely NeXT could do the same. > + unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM > products Again, that's a problem with the person writing the license, it isn't a problem with the medium. Nobody is going to force NeXT to write up horrible licensing terms if NeXT decides to distribute things on CD-ROM drives. Note that the topic under debate is the distribution of large amounts of data. I see no advantage of distributing things via piles of floppies instead of one (or two? :-) CD-ROM's. I think NeXT had the right idea with the original optical drives except that the method was a bit too expensive. Ideally the distribution would be on something that both an optical drive and a CD-ROM drive could read, because CD-ROM's aren't the ultimate answer to everything either. But barring that option, I'd much rather have a CD-ROM distribution than stacking up floppies all around my office. Of course, I do believe that NeXT would have to continue to make distributions available on floppy too, because people should not be forced to buy a CD-ROM drive (not yet, at least). I like CD-ROM distributions for a number of reasons, but it wouldn't be right for NeXT to first force everyone to get floppy drives and immediately turn around and force everyone to get CD-ROM drives. > Now if NeXT wants to offer software on Exabyte 8200 cartridges, > I'm listening. :-) How much to Exabyte drives cost? How fast are they? How reliable are they? Can you mount an Exabyte and navigate thru it using all the same tools as you use for a hard disk? (I'm not being sarcasic in the above paragraph, I don't know the answers to any of those questions and they might be interesting to know). - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@rpi.edu or gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer (handles NeXT-type mail) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA
byer@adobe.com (06/22/91)
In article <1769@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: |I think the recent postings in the thread really miss the mark. |First of all, there's tremendous resentment among early adopters |of NeXT's "future software will only be available on floppy" |policy, and being forced to purchase floppy drives for their |ODful systems in order to continue using them--drives that often |don't work well and are fairly expensive--and not even being |given the option to use the FD controller on the '040 upgrades |they were all but "forced" to buy. The *last* thing in the |world they want to see is NeXT commit to yet-another-incompatible |storage medium. While it's too bad that floptical wasn't cooked yet, it has to be accepted. Is it better to accept and forgive a mistake, or to make a company forever bend over backwards (at great cost) for compatibility - probably at the sacrafice of further innovation? Fast, useable, reliable floptical won't be cooked for another few years. A low-cost interim solution has to be found, and I don't think floppies are it. $/MB is way high, not to mention sheer weight and volume. Have you ever gotten a package containing a full Unix OS on floppies?!? Weighs a ton! |Very few people in the Bay Area seem terribly interested in |CD-ROM for a variety of reasons (in no particular order): Plese don't try and speak for the rest of us. I know of quite a few other NeXTies who would prefer CDROM to the current solutions: - Floppies only handle one application, and not for very much longer at that. - Complex operating / windowing systems may require more frequent updating to fix found probelms. The cost of one CDROM vs. 50-100 floppies that it takes to hold one release is a major factor in updating frequency. |+ bad experiences with Apple and Sun CD products Learn from their mistakes. |+ slow And floppies and the current flopticals aren't? |+ not user-writable It a distribution medium, not a hard-drive substitute. |+ relatively expensive hardware Relative to a floppy drive and large numbers of floppies? Relative to the current flopticals? |+ large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market | price" compared with just about any other storage media |+ most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software | that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS |+ unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM | products Not that I've seen. Again, relative to the other useable *distribution* media (floppies, current flopticals) CDROMS are no different. |Now if NeXT wants to offer software on Exabyte 8200 cartridges, |I'm listening. :-) Yet-another-incompatible (and unreliable) storage medium? No Thanks! (Gee, I think I heard that somewhere before :-) | -=EPS=- I'm NOT looking for another storage medium. I can wait for the next generation flopticals for that. I can survive with floppies or DAT as backup and hard drives as main medium for the short term. But floppies/tape are NOT an acceptable *distribution* medium in the short term, IMO, because *distribution* implies much larger amounts of data. And CDROM seems to be the only thing that fits that bill. Besides, wouldn't you just *love* to pipe raw CD audio bits through the DSP, to do all *sorts* of interesting things with it! Or, CDV and NeXTtv! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Byer NeXTmail: byer@adobe.com Adobe Systems Incorporated These are all my own 1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900 opinions - like anybody Mountain View, CA 94039-7900 else would want them! ---------------------------------------------------------------------
gillham@andrews.edu (Andrew Gillham) (06/22/91)
In article <1769@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >they were all but "forced" to buy. The *last* thing in the >world they want to see is NeXT commit to yet-another-incompatible >storage medium. If they were to use a Standard BSD fast-filesystem on the CD-ROM along with ISO formatting, wouldn't it be mountable on just about any Unix box with a CD-ROM drive? (i.e. Sun-CD) >Very few people in the Bay Area seem terribly interested in >CD-ROM for a variety of reasons (in no particular order): >+ bad experiences with Apple and Sun CD products >+ slow >+ not user-writable >+ relatively expensive hardware >+ large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market > price" compared with just about any other storage media >+ most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software > that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS >+ unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM > products How much do 2 OD cartridges cost? I don't know, but say they are around $100, that would be $200 for the equivalent storage as a CD-ROM (650MB) Then when you upgrade to NeXTStep 3.0, you get 1 or 2 more OD's for maybe another $200. Now you've got $400 invested and that's just the media cost. If you could buy a CD-ROM drive for $500, and get the CD's for the media cost ($3?) you would be *near* the same cost. But you would be able to use other CD's and developers would be able to use cheaper media for their apps. Then when NeXTStep x.x comes out you pay for the Software upgrade, not the media. User writeable is a different problem, but for $500 you can't really complain to loudly -Andrew -- ===================================================================== Andrew Gillham ****** Andrews University ****** (gillham@andrews.edu) I would've added a cool .signature, but I already mailed this letter.
louie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (06/22/91)
It is interesting to note that NeXT uses a CD-ROM based distribution of their software internally. Talk to you local NeXT, Inc. Tech support folks and ask them how they reload software on a busted 105 MB disk in a slab. They don't use floppies. We just have to convince them to take what they already have (CD-ROM software distributions, good generic UNIX platform, etc) and market it to the folks that want it. louie
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (06/22/91)
In article <1991Jun21.133715.29072@umbc3.umbc.edu> brian@umbc4.umbc.edu (Brian Cuthie) writes: >Well, I totally disagree. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm just reporting what other people have told me. I'm glad to hear you had a positive experience with Apple. >It's not true that everyone *has* to get a CD drive. For one thing, if >only one in ten owners and the support centers (I assume that such things exist >although their existence is mearly unsubstantiated rumor) had them, then it >would be *much* easier for almost everyone to get updates. That's the same argument by which "you don't have to get 2.1, just copy it from someone who has it" fails in practice. >CD's cost a wopping $1.50 to manufacture and the mastering cost is< $2000. Tell me offline where you can master a CD-ROM for that little; if true, it's come down A LOT. >>+ not user-writable > >BFD. I'm just reporting the news... Don't kill the messenger. >>+ relatively expensive hardware > >If you think $400 is expensive for 600 mbyte removable media (albeit >write protected) then you haven't priced tape backup systems lately :-) Ah, but tape backup systems are useful every day, not just when a distribution disk falls in your lap every couple of months. It's worth it to me to have a good backup unit--even if it is expensive. It's not worth it to have a CD-ROM drive that will rarely get used. I don't get to write it off as a "business expense" and use it for audio CDs 360 days a year. I already have an audio CD player, and it works quite well, thank you. >>+ large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market >> price" compared with just about any other storage media > >This argument doesn't even belong here. We buy things everyday that have >large differences between manufacturing cost and "fair market value" as >you put it. Software is a good example. Telephones are another. Shall I go >on ? My point is that this is a UNIQUE characteristic of CD-ROM. If I'm interested in databases, odds are I can get the IDENTICAL data on "industry standard" 9-track tape for less! I'm still going to want to copy the contents of the CD-ROM to hard disk because (1) CD-ROM is SLOW (2) I can't share the data over a network. The NeXT isn't a PeeCee, dammit! >>Now if NeXT wants to offer software on Exabyte 8200 cartridges, >>I'm listening. :-) > >YUCK! Geez, if anything, make it DAT. 8mm drives are going to go the way of >78RPM records within a few years. DAT is *so* much nicer. For one thing, >it's intrinsically digital. For another, it can be searched at >200 times >normal record/play speeds and supports start stop operation. And for another thing, 8mm transports will outlast DAT transports built using _current technology_ by several years, with fewer problems and lower maintenance costs. "Intrinsically digital" is bullshit. The tape is basically the same, the electronics are basically the same, the problem is with the R-DAT transport itself. I don't think it's deliberate "planned obsolescence" so much as the materials science isn't at the point where the things aren't going to self-destruct in a few hundred (or thousand) hours of normal use. (Or it could just be that manufacturers don't believe they could price competitively by building these things out of more durable materials.) -=EPS=-
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (06/22/91)
In article <_k=lqkq@rpi.edu> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes: >The mistake was the "future software will only be available on floppy" >decision. Agreed. >> + slow > >It isn't faster than a hard drive, but if you're comparing it to *floppies* >then it isn't too bad. Agreed. >> + not user-writable > >That's actually one of the reasons that I *want* distributions on CD-ROM! It'd >be great to know that I have absolutely pristine versions of the distribution >files available. That's a good thing, but--in practice, every major CD-ROM distribution I've seen has had problems "discovered right after the freeze," and has needed at least a floppy-full of patches to go along with it. The advantage of the other distribution methods is that a vendor can always ship _the latest_ versions, and isn't stuck with a huge inventory of goofs. You don't expect them to remaster every week! Anyway, with CD-ROM you still need another way to get the diffs in. At least on the Mac you can count on the floppy drive there. It's tougher on the NeXT. Not every machine has a floppy, or a modem, or an Internet connection. > >> + large disparity between CD manufacturing cost and "fair market >> price" compared with just about any other storage media > >That is purely a decision of the person selling the CD. Agreed. But it's become the norm. I don't understand why something I can get on paper costs ten to a hundred times as much in a CD-ROM edition when the paper itself costs more than the disc. >> + most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software >> that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS > >Gee, I wonder if that just *might* be because MSDOS and Macs *use* CD-ROM's, No, it's because the publishers thumb their noses at standards. They could just as easily use "pure" High Sierra/ISO 9660. Instead, they CHOOSE to encode in proprietary formats. >while NeXT doesn't officially recognize that the medium exists. Oh, come on. It's product #N3007. My point is that even having a CD-ROM drive, I still can't take advantage of most of the existing catalog of CD-ROM releases. Suppose the medium "takes off" in the NeXT community. Then we convince publishers to produce NeXT-compatible versions? Then they'll price the NeXT version significantly higher than the PeeCee version because it's for a "workstation" rather than a "personal computer." Lovely. >> + unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM >> products > >Again, that's a problem with the person writing the license, I agree! > Nobody is going to force NeXT to write up horrible licensing >terms if NeXT decides to distribute things on CD-ROM drives. NeXT doesn't need forcing. NeXT just has to follow suit. I'd love to see NeXT be reasonable, but I just don't think their corporate "vision" extends that far. Besides, NeXT is really too small to lead the revolution, all things considered. >How much to Exabyte drives cost? A lot. > How fast are they? Could be better. > How reliable are they? Awesome. Exabytes are sort of the Telebits of the tape world; pricey but soooo much better than anything else. >Can you mount an Exabyte and navigate thru it using all the same tools as you >use for a hard disk? No. But you can install from it. We were talking about software distribution, right? -=EPS=-
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (06/22/91)
In article <16777@adobe.UUCP> byer@adobe.com writes: >|Very few people in the Bay Area seem terribly interested in >|CD-ROM for a variety of reasons (in no particular order): > >Plese don't try and speak for the rest of us. I'm not speaking for, I'm reporting what I've been told. My sample isn't random NeXT users, it's preselected by BANG (local user group) participation. BANG had planned to produce a CD-ROM (similar to, but not a clone of) the Big Green Disk. The project essentially fizzled because of lack of interest on the consumer side. If there are so many people out there who WANT CD-ROM, where ARE you? >|+ relatively expensive hardware >Relative to a floppy drive and large numbers of floppies? >Relative to the current flopticals? Relative to "I'm just a poor student and I really can't afford blah blah blah." (Not speaking for my self, just echoing something I hear *a lot*.) >|Now if NeXT wants to offer software on Exabyte 8200 cartridges, >|I'm listening. :-) > >Yet-another-incompatible (and unreliable) storage medium? No Thanks! Incompatible? Funny, there's EXPLICIT support in the NeXT operating system for Exabytes (xt driver). Unreliable? The Exabytes are one of the MOST reliable tape systems on the market. >Besides, wouldn't you just *love* to pipe raw CD audio bits through the DSP, to >do all *sorts* of interesting things with it! Or, CDV and NeXTtv! Don't worry, the "copy protection" police will see that you can't do that. (No smiley) -=EPS=-
ppham@gmuvax2.gmu.edu ( ) (06/22/91)
Why should we settle for CD-ROM ? read-write Optical Disks are getting smaller cheaper, & much faster then CD-ROM. need I say more ?
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/22/91)
In article <1779@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: the "> >"'s are him quoting me (garance) the "> >>"'s are him quoting me quoting his earlier message > >> + unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM > >> products > > > >Again, that's a problem with the person writing the license, > > I agree! > > > Nobody is going to force NeXT to write up horrible licensing > >terms if NeXT decides to distribute things on CD-ROM drives. > > NeXT doesn't need forcing. NeXT just has to follow suit. > I'd love to see NeXT be reasonable, but I just don't think their > corporate "vision" extends that far. Besides, NeXT is really > too small to lead the revolution, all things considered. My point is that NeXT seems to be doing OK with their floppy drive distributions (if I understand the cost of the floppies correctly, and the way the distributions are licensed). Making CD-ROM versions available should not force them to change that behavior. And if their behavior isn't all that good right now, well, CD-ROM's won't force them to be any worse. > >How much to Exabyte drives cost? > > A lot. > > >How fast are they? > > Could be better. > > >How reliable are they? > > Awesome. Exabytes are sort of the Telebits of the tape world; > pricey but soooo much better than anything else. > > >Can you mount an Exabyte and navigate thru it using all the same tools > >as you use for a hard disk? > > No. But you can install from it. We were talking about software > distribution, right? Well, I was thinking more of both distribution and backup. I've nailed myself a few times because I've changed some distributed file "with an obvious change", only to forget the specifics of it later (and of course I didn't cp the "file" to "file~" before making the change, because I was so sure it was an obvious and memorable change). Well, "burned" is too strong a word I guess, because no notable problems have resulted from this yet. It's just that there's been a few times where I've wished I could stick a CD-ROM of the original distribution in just to compare my /etc/random.file with the original distributed version of it. I want to stick the file in, and just type: ls -lg /etc/random.file /cdrom/etc/random.file diff -c /etc/random.file /cdrom/etc/random.file to refresh my memory. Note that my scheme is to have the CD-ROM around so I don't have to backup all the distributed files to floppies (or tape). So I want the convenient access for the backup/restoration usage. It would also be particularly nice if the CD-ROM was setup to be a working bootable disk. That way when someone logs into root and trashes their hard drive by mistake (already happened once), I could just walk over with a CD-ROM drive, boot the CD-ROM, and re-install the distributed system. Thanks for the info on the Exabyte. That sounds like it might be worth looking into for here sometime (once we have more NeXT's around). - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer (handles NeXT-type mail) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/22/91)
[whoops, forgot a few things I meant to comment on] eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: > (Garance A. Drosehn) writes: > > > eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: > >> + most "interesting" CD-ROMs "out there" are tied to software > >> that only runs on MSDOS or Mac OS > > > >Gee, I wonder if that just *might* be because MSDOS and Macs *use* CD-ROM's, > > No, it's because the publishers thumb their noses at standards. > They could just as easily use "pure" High Sierra/ISO 9660. > Instead, they CHOOSE to encode in proprietary formats. > > >while NeXT doesn't officially recognize that the medium exists. > > Oh, come on. It's product #N3007. My point is that even having > a CD-ROM drive, I still can't take advantage of most of the > existing catalog of CD-ROM releases. What's product #N3007? Is it a CD-ROM disc of something extremely nice to have on CD-ROM disc? Or even something that's merely extremely nice to have on any medium? (don't look at me, I don't have a catalog here, what *is* #N3007?) My comment is not that NeXT doesn't admit that CD-ROM drives exist, it's that they don't give you any reason at all to buy one. If someone gave me a CD-ROM for my NeXT, I'd be quite happy to take it (I want to make that clear in case anyone was thinking of mailing me one...), but I really don't have a single disc I could put into it from NeXT, Inc. When I said Macs *use* CD-ROMs, I meant Apple uses it for things they distribute, such as ETO, A/UX, and develop. I'm happy enough with ETO that I figure that disc, by itself, pretty much justifies the cost of me personally buying a CD-ROM drive. If third party suppliers produce Mac-ish CD-ROM releases all the better, but the CD's I get from Apple are worthwhile enough for me to spend the (rather hefty) $$$ for the CD-ROM drive and the ETO subscription. - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer (handles NeXT-type mail) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (06/22/91)
In article <7=al3ha@rpi.edu> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes: >What's product #N3007? The CD-ROM drive NeXT announced as a product last September, and has supposedly been selling for the past half year or so. >My comment is not that NeXT doesn't admit that CD-ROM drives exist, it's that >they don't give you any reason at all to buy one. Didn't this discussion start from the supposition that CD-ROM might become NeXT's sole distribution medium for future Software Releases? -=EPS=-
ddj@zardoz.club.cc.cmu.edu (Doug DeJulio) (06/22/91)
In article <1991Jun21.133715.29072@umbc3.umbc.edu> brian@umbc4.umbc.edu (Brian Cuthie) writes: >>+ unattractive licensing terms have become the norm with CD-ROM >> products > >WHAT !? What do you mean "WHAT"? This is true. I work in a university library, in a library automation project. We've got lots of data on CDs. Right now, people go up to a PC with a CD ROM drive, toss in the CD they want to read, and do their data lookups. I wanted to set up a couple of server machines with CD-ROM drives and network filesystem server software, so multiple people could do searches at the same time from multiple hardware platforms. We can't do it for *licensing* reasons. Only *one* person is allowed to be searching a CD-ROM around here at a time. Each additional user would require a much more expensive license for each CD. No, really. At home, I have a NeXTstation with lots of RAM and hard drive space, and about 30 users who connect in over the internet to use the machine. I'd love to have a CD-ROM drive. This insane licensing -- how do you handle this on a workstation? On a PC, just leave the whole system in stone-age technology, so only the person at the console can access any of the resources. But what about an interpersonal computer, being shared by 30 people routinely? A one-user license would be the wrong thing to get, but an unlimited access license would be *so* expensive that it's impossible to obtain for an individual user. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.club.cc.cmu.edu
brian@umbc4.umbc.edu (Brian Cuthie) (06/22/91)
In article <1991Jun22.084101.4019@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> ppham@gmuvax2.gmu.edu ( ) writes: >Why should we settle for CD-ROM ? read-write Optical Disks are getting smaller >cheaper, & much faster then CD-ROM. need I say more ? > YES! Please say more. I have found read-write Optical Disks to be neither: 1. cheaper than CD-ROM (in either drive or media cost) 2. smaller They may be faster, since the CD-ROM is a continuous spiral track technology, it is relatively slow at random seeking. But at ~$1.50/disk, it's a GREAT way to distribute 600Mbytes of data. And another thing :-)(this note is more of a general retort than specifically about anything you've said here) the reason BaNG people may not be interestd in the CD project EPS was taling about is because they would have to buy a CD-ROM drive for that *one* disc. If, on the other hand, there was a comitment from NeXT to use CDs for distribution, then people would already have a good reason for owning the drive. Once people have the drives then other CD based projects gain popularity much faster. -brian
waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu (06/23/91)
I am PROBABLY in favor of software distribution via CD-ROM PROVIDED that NeXT
makes available a CD-ROM drive for about the same price as the new Tandy drive
(about $400).
I also feel that it would be good business for NeXT to continue to make
software distributions available via "old" media such as ODs...but feel that
they should adopt charges commensurate with their distribution costs for such
media. Most users would probably find it cost effective to get on board with
the newer media, but, regardless, it's their choice and that's almost always
good marketing practice. If NeXT recovers their costs, it's no problem for
them.
Of course, what I'd REALLY like to see is a reliable, <$500 DAT. That's
probably a couple of years off:^{ DAT has even greater capacity than
CD-ROM though I suspect mastering costs might be much higher and that might be
enough to make CD-ROM a better software distribution choice.
Just my 2 cents on what I feel might be a pretty important thread.
c.f.waltrip
Internet: <waltrip@capsrv.jhuapl.edu>
Opinions expressed are my own.louie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (06/23/91)
In article <1789@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >Didn't this discussion start from the supposition that CD-ROM >might become NeXT's sole distribution medium for future Software >Releases? I don't think that anyone wants to use CD-ROM distribution exclusively, but as an option. Many vendors such as Apple, Sun and DEC have discovered the economy of distributing software on this media. I'd certainly prefer having a CD-ROM distribution of Ultrix to the equivelent distribution on TK50's. I'd prefer to have my NeXT software on a CD-ROM rather than a dozen floppies. NeXT has been quite resonable on their software upgrade costs; hell a 2.0 on OD is cheaper than a blank OD! Given the added economy of the media, they may be more likely to make more frequent distributions. As I said earlier, I know that they already produce CD-ROM media for internal support use; presumably they know how to do this already. It's just a matter of scaling up to a wider distribution. I can imagine that sites that do not have network connectivity might want to subscribe to NeXTanswers on CD-ROM. Just imagine receiving the latest set of Q&A, the documentation that they've released (like the Concepts manual), all of the various Example programs, and other good stuff updated every few months. This could be quite a benifit to folks that can't just FTP it. Heck, I'd even pay $75 a year for such a service to avoid having to FTP over a 9.6K SLIP line! louie
haener@urz.unibas.ch (06/23/91)
In article <1991Jun22.144502.17475@umbc3.umbc.edu>, brian@umbc4.umbc.edu (Brian Cuthie) writes: > In article <1991Jun22.084101.4019@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> ppham@gmuvax2.gmu.edu ( ) writes: >>Why should we settle for CD-ROM ? read-write Optical Disks are getting smaller >>cheaper, & much faster then CD-ROM. need I say more ? >> > > YES! Please say more. I have found read-write Optical Disks to be neither: > > 1. cheaper than CD-ROM (in either drive or media cost) > > 2. smaller > Last week Sony announced a new CD Player/Recorder. It is based on magneto- optical technology, and uses 2.5in cartridges. Each cartridge will contain about the same amount of music as a connventional CD, however in a compressed format. Mass production starts in 1992. This might be the kind of read-write Optical disk we all are waiting for: it will be 1. cheap (as it is intended to compete with DAT) 2. smaller (I saw a picture of the Recorder - it is hardly larger than the cartridge) Greetings Patrick P. Haener Theoretische Physik Klingelbergstr. 82 CH-4056 Basel Switzerland
gillham@andrews.edu (Andrew Gillham) (06/23/91)
In article <1991Jun22.123950.1@capd.jhuapl.edu> waltrip@capd.jhuapl.edu writes: >I am PROBABLY in favor of software distribution via CD-ROM PROVIDED that NeXT >makes available a CD-ROM drive for about the same price as the new Tandy drive >(about $400). This would make it to CHEAP to pass up! If I could get a CD-ROM drive for $400 and get the OS on CD-ROM (600megs) I would be more than willing to pay for it. (say $500 for the bundle) >I also feel that it would be good business for NeXT to continue to make >software distributions available via "old" media such as ODs...but feel that >they should adopt charges commensurate with their distribution costs for such >media. Most users would probably find it cost effective to get on board with >the newer media, but, regardless, it's their choice and that's almost always >good marketing practice. If NeXT recovers their costs, it's no problem for >them. Floppies and OD's should always be available, but not the STANDARD media. >Of course, what I'd REALLY like to see is a reliable, <$500 DAT. That's >probably a couple of years off:^{ DAT has even greater capacity than >CD-ROM though I suspect mastering costs might be much higher and that might be >enough to make CD-ROM a better software distribution choice. This would be nice, but CD-ROM would work TODAY! Also, as the originator of this thread mentioned (I think it was him), you could mount the CD-ROM and use it as part of the file-system thus reducing the amount of magnetic disk required to have the EXTENDED OS. Sure it would be slow, but it would be a lot cheaper than 600meg of magnetic! Let's see, 105MB mono slab == $3400 (educational), CD-ROM drive == $500, A box of blank floppies == $100, we've got a pretty nice system for $4000. Add the NeXT Laser and you've only paid $5000 and you've got the complete Extended system with Mathmatica, ACL, G++, GCC, EMACS, etc, etc and still some free space on your hard-drive. THIS WOULD BE GREAT! Do you know any student that wouldn't be happy with this? Sure, you would want to add more RAM and a bigger disk if you were getting into development work or are a real power-user, but the typical student that wants to do the kind of stuff he could do on a MAC would be pretty happy. [IMHO] >Just my 2 cents on what I feel might be a pretty important thread. > >c.f.waltrip > I think this is pretty important also. A cheap, high-capacity random access device is preferable to a expensive sequential access device for distribution if you consider the sheer size of NeXTStep. You can use the whole thing without having enough disk to load EVERYTHING off of you exabyte 8mm. Again, my opinions. (and I don't even have a NeXT, so who's gonna listen?) -Andrew -- ===================================================================== Andrew Gillham ****** Andrews University ****** (gillham@andrews.edu) I would've added a cool .signature, but I already mailed this letter.
crum@alicudi.usc.edu (Gary L. Crum) (06/23/91)
Apple's E.T.O. (Esstentials, Tools, Objects) products is a great example related to this discussion. It's a large, relative complete collection of Macintosh development "stuff", including MPW (with Object Pascal, C, C++ and assembler languages) and MacApp, distributed quarterly on CD-ROM. It costs $300 per year for the four-issues-a-year subscription, plus some initial cost ($700) for those that don't already have it's major components (like MPW). E.T.O. is relatively (less than one year old) product. Also now available to everyone on CD-ROM from Apple is " d e v e l o p ", a compilation of Apple Macintosh "stuff" like sample code that is also available using on-line services like AppleLink and by anonymous FTP from Apple (Internet host ftp.apple.com). Anyway, NeXTstep may still be the most accessible and nicely packaged development environment, since it practically comes with every NeXT computer (with minor complications due to current storage capacities), but it's clear that a periodic NeXTstep update on CD-ROM analogous to E.T.O. is very practical and desirable. Hopefully NeXTstep will continue to be part of NeXT system software (or at least part of extended system software at a ridiculously low price as is currently the case). Maybe Jobs has secretly secured a deal to introduce a new CD-ROM drive that offers transfer throughput around 1 MB/s instead of the current 150 KB/s that drives offer, so as to go well with 30 frames/sec digital video playback at television signal resolution. Ha :-) No, that would probably be (or at least perceived to be) a disaster because the drive would cost a lot. In any case, more emphasis on CD-ROM by NeXT seems inevitable. CD-ROM has _so_ much performance/price momentum because of the music industry. Does anyone know if and when there will be a big NeXT event this fall? Gary
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (06/23/91)
Andrew Gillham writes
> Floppies and OD's should always be available, but not the STANDARD media.
I can't help it. I have to jump in.
One of the main reasons for the floppy drive standard is so that
software developers can ship products on reasonable media. It takes
money and machinery to press CD-ROM disks, and it isn't practical for
ordinary software distribution.
Also, if you want to transfer files from one machine to another, you
need a floppy drive (or a network).
Every NeXT computer needs--and should have--a floppy drive. Some NeXT
computers may want to have a CD-ROM drive also. It does not make sense
for CD-ROM to be the "standard" media except possibly for very large
releases from NeXT.
But, in a given year, there is typically only one major release of software
from NeXT, and typically it's an upgrade that will fit on a handful of
floppies. On the other hand, most people will buy several software
products during the year, and those are typically distributed on floppies.
Just my opinions, of course.
--
Glenn Reid NeXTMail: glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us
RightBrain Software ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn
NeXT/PostScript developers 415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)ppham@gmuvax2.gmu.edu ( ) (06/23/91)
I am saying that OD are getting cheaper, smaller(3.5in drives), & faster & most of all its writable ! I see CD-ROM as a interim solution until OD technology matures. As a Slab user $500 for a slow, read only drive doesn't sound too good. Not that CD-ROM doesn't have its advantages but I'd much rather see NeXT devote its energies to bringing us the next generation Read Write Optical Disk Drive.
thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark R. Thomsen) (06/24/91)
<A whole bunch of people write a whole bunch of interesting stuff; too much to copy here.> In which I air my opinions and then offer a solution for us all. I don't want my storage media to be innovative, difficult, or controversial any longer. I have paid many times over to get to the point where the storage and distribution media should be commodity items - inexpensive, competitively priced, and reliable. Please! NeXT and Cannon really tried hard to get a reasonable read-write optical drive and media. However, we bought all machines with hard disks and used the optical drives as offline storage and backup devices until we felt comfortable. The OD was the only piece of hardware that failed (the legendary dust problem hit six times on eight drives). Yet, it is wonderful as a removable and portable medium. We have a library of 50 ODs that can plug into any NeXT - a nice, reasonably priced solution to what we were doing. It just wasn't (and isn't) a competitor for a hard disk unless reliability and performance needs are low. Now, CD ROM has become commodity and we like it. NASA and JPL have issued numerous earth science data sets on CD ROM. Our government's DMA and USGS (and soon even the IRS) are publishing information on CD ROM. Information that our tax dollars paid for. We wrote our CD ROM driver for the 1.0 OS NeXT because we were using this data. Sometimes, yes, the disks were formatted and intended for PC and Macintosh - we wrote utilities to decode the data for NeXT/Unix. However the important data we wanted is easily available on CD ROM. I really don't think one medium is the answer to distribution (considering NeXT and other digit producers). We need a range of sizes and capabilities to satisfy big and little, read-only and read-write, backup and online, slow-is-OK and nothing-is- fast-enough. The fewer the better. But consider this. There is nothing that suggests producers will have to pay and markup if they support multiple media (boxes in the store are marked with the media, order forms have media to mark, NeXTconnection and campus sellers can tailor, etc.). Why not let us pick from the range of media (CD ROM, floptical, floppy) and then order our software accordingly? Indeed, the media costs are a minor fraction of the price we pay for software and most databases. I think the discussion here might be a little backwards. Let us pick the devices we prefer and then we order/buy media (to pop in) from a common range. It won't cost much more for producers to go to master, reproduction, or manufacturing companies for the different media than it would for one media. It could work. Mark R. Thomsen
jack@umbc4.umbc.edu (Jack Suess) (06/24/91)
As the one who started this topic I have been very interested in the responses generated. My main reason for starting this thread is that I think the 105MB Nextstation is a wonderful machine for students; however the software chosen to be installed on the 105MB disk is not always what a student would need. It was my belief that by supporting cd-rom Next could 1) allow a 105mb system to be tailored depending on your needs, 2) provide a backup for the OS (not user files) in case of problems, and 3) distribute alot of additional goodies that are now only available to users directly attached to the internet. Wouldn't it be nice to have online the archives from the major NeXT ftp sites and get updates every few months. While read/write optical will some day be cost effective it is not presently the case, what other medium, other that cd-rom can Next use ? The cost of floppies, including the labor of reproducing has to make them more costly than cd-rom for the OS distribution. Mastering machines for CD-ROM have really dropped in price, not to mention the fact there is alot of excess mastering capacity in the industry makes it very inexpensive to produce cd-rom. I will agree with some of the users who complained that originally cd-rom distribution was plauged with problems; however that is changing with Sun, Dec, and HP (the three I get). What we are now seeing is that vendors ship a new cd-rom every two months, that cd-rom has the updates and patches that came out the two months before AND this represents a much quicker turnaround on updates than we every saw with tape. I can see why users who purchased the 400mb hard disk systems might not be interested in a cd-rom, you have essentially all the software NeXt distributes and you shouldn't be burdened with additional cost. Likewise, I would not replace the floppy with the cd-rom because the floppy is THE medium for independent software companies to distribute software. I can't believe that someone at NeXT is not watching this discussion very carefully. If you have an opinion about media distribution let them know. jack suess jack@umbc3.umbc.edu -- Jack Suess UMBC Academic Computing Internet: Jack@umbc5.umbc.edu Standard Disclaimer: Bitnet: Jack@umbc The opinions expressed above are mine and ATT: 301.455.2582 not my employers.
39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu (Peter Marinac;;;4159743128;KL75) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.105112.23110@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> ppham@gmuvax2.gmu.edu ( ) writes: >I am saying that OD are getting cheaper, smaller(3.5in drives), & faster >& most of all its writable ! I see CD-ROM as a interim solution until >OD technology matures. Good point! >I'd much rather see NeXT devote its energies to bringing us the next >generation Read Write Optical Disk Drive. Agreed, as long as it has the potential to become a storage media for other forms of data. I don't know about you guys but the numbers and types of storage media out there are about enought to drive a person bonkers. Take the average person who has been buying into PCs and/or workstations over the past few years. My case for example. I've got data and programs on 5-1/4" floppies, 5-1/4" high density, 3-1/2" single and double sided, and 3-1/2" high density floppies (No EDs yet!), CD-ROM (in whatever format a Mac recognizes), and magneto-optical disks. Switch to music; forgetting about vinyl for the sake of this argument, I've got cassettes, CDs, 15ips reels and HiFi VHS. I wouldn't mind a DAT but they don't seem to be selling to well. Switch to video; damn good that I didn't buy into Beta. I've got VHS. But if I wanted a cam corder I would probably have to buy 8mm. If I was a stickler for quality I would probably pick up a laser disc player. Now when I saw Steve Jobs give his intro to the cube I remember him saying about the MO disk that a person could carry his whole world around with him on one of these disks, and at the time it really didn't seem all that far fetched. Here was music, digitized at CD resolutions, or synthesized, and data and programs, all in a convenient package. You can argue that any of the above media, hell, even an eight track tape, is capable of doing the above. But it has a big problem...speed. CD-ROMs have the same problem. CD-ROMs are slow because of "standards" that limit the speed at which they can be spun, and hence limit maximum transfer rates. Unless the standards are revised when read/write CDs are made available, their usefullness will remain limited to music. Apple has tried, rather unsuccess- fully outside of the developer community, to make CD-ROMs a big thing. Some day I want to be able to go to sleep having given my computer instructions to search network databases for information on "spontaneous predicate oriented programming", and record about a 1/2 hours worth of a late nite radio show. Take the media out in the morning and pop it into my car unit for the drive into work. Check out the tunes from the late-nite radio program. Then have the text-to-speech converter read me what the computer found last night. Dictate back to it a few of my thoughts. Get to work and pop the media into a computer running an entirely different operating system than my home computer, and whip up a presentation for my 11 o'clock meeting with my boss. Now if the cam-corder utilized the same media I would really be set! Peter Marinac
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (06/24/91)
Glenn Reid writes > Andrew Gillham writes > > Floppies and OD's should always be available, but not the STANDARD media. > Every NeXT computer needs--and should have--a floppy drive. Some NeXT > computers may want to have a CD-ROM drive also. I got the following Email from someone, and I agree with this sentiment completely. NeXT offers a CD-ROM drive but does not offer a floppy drive. Date: Sun, 23 Jun 91 08:55:18 PDT From: <name deleted> To: glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us Subject: Re: CD-ROM Drives Newsgroups: comp.sys.next Not a gripe at you but I wish you'd inserted a NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK NEXT INC when pointing out the need for floppies on all next machines. I shouldn't be limited to a third party SCSI device, now that I've upgraded to an 040 board. Next should offer a retrofit drive-bay panel and floppy drive. -- Glenn Reid NeXTMail: glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us RightBrain Software ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn NeXT/PostScript developers 415-326-2974 (NeXTfax 326-2977)
brian@umbc4.umbc.edu (Brian Cuthie) (06/24/91)
In article <28651837.1100@deneva.sdd.trw.com> thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark R. Thomsen) writes: ><A whole bunch of people write a whole bunch of interesting stuff; > too much to copy here.> > >In which I air my opinions and then offer a solution for us all. > >the data for NeXT/Unix. However the important data we wanted >is easily available on CD ROM. Agreed, the world *is* using CD-ROM. Almost anyone who has large amounts of data to ship is using it. The only reason the average guy at home doesn't have one is because he just doesn't need 600Meg worth of data on a machine with a 20 meg hard disk. > >I really don't think one medium is the answer to distribution >(considering NeXT and other digit producers). We need a range >of sizes and capabilities to satisfy big and little, read-only >and read-write, backup and online, slow-is-OK and nothing-is- >fast-enough. The fewer the better. I agree here also. > >But consider this. There is nothing that suggests producers >will have to pay and markup if they support multiple media >(boxes in the store are marked with the media, order forms >have media to mark, NeXTconnection and campus sellers can >tailor, etc.). Why not let us pick from the range of media >(CD ROM, floptical, floppy) and then order our software >accordingly? > >Indeed, the media costs are a minor fraction of the price we >pay for software and most databases. I think the discussion >here might be a little backwards. Let us pick the devices we >prefer and then we order/buy media (to pop in) from a common >range. It won't cost much more for producers to go to master, >reproduction, or manufacturing companies for the different >media than it would for one media. > Well, I had to disagree somewhere... Actually the cost of media, even floppies, is a *significant* cost in the manufacturing of comercial software. Consider that the average $500 program probably sells to the retailer for about $350. The distributor pays about $200 to $250 for it, and the total cost of manufacturing (manuals, labor, media, duplication, etc.) is <$50. If the program ships on 5 floppies, figure that the cost of a duplicated disk is maybe $1.50. Then, the $7.50 represented by the media, is approximately 15% of the total manufacturing cost. Obviosuly a dramatic change in media cost is going to be intolerable. Certainly an OD at a cost of around $175 isn't going to cut it. Similarly, most DOS software companies literally can't stand the idea that they must support two types of distribution media. It's a mess. You either put two sets in the box (expensive) or you handle it on a case by case basis (more expensive, and it irks your customers). Now, in case you think the software company that sells a product (retail) for $500 that costs only $50 to manufacture, is ripping someone off, you would be suprised. I personally know people with relatively good sized companies that publish internationally distributed products (voted #1 by some magazines) who are healthy, but not obscenely profitable, on these margins. It costs real money to operate a software company. Costs add up. Media costs are non-trivial. >It could work. > >Mark R. Thomsen -brian
dlw@Atherton.COM (David Williams) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun22.184134.23102@ni.umd.edu>, louie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) writes: In article <1789@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >Didn't this discussion start from the supposition that CD-ROM >might become NeXT's sole distribution medium for future Software >Releases? Yup something like that. Thought I think it should just join the existing channels of distribution...let the customer decide the media to choose: 1) OD 2) CD-ROM 3) Floppy >I don't think that anyone wants to use CD-ROM distribution >exclusively, but as an option. Many vendors such as Apple, Sun and >DEC have discovered the economy of distributing software on this >media. I'd certainly prefer having a CD-ROM distribution of Ultrix to >the equivelent distribution on TK50's. I'd prefer to have my NeXT >software on a CD-ROM rather than a dozen floppies. Absolutely...Hp does updates of both their OS's on CD-ROM. NeXT does it internally it just hasn't decided to do it for their customers. Though maybe it is just one long alpha test inside NeXT! >I can imagine that sites that do not have network connectivity might >want to subscribe to NeXTanswers on CD-ROM. Just imagine receiving >the latest set of Q&A, the documentation that they've released (like >the Concepts manual), all of the various Example programs, and other >good stuff updated every few months. This could be quite a benifit to >folks that can't just FTP it. Heck, I'd even pay $75 a year for such >a service to avoid having to FTP over a 9.6K SLIP line! Yup me too, this would be great! To have it distibuted every month with updates from the ftp servers containing the latest software. Apple has something similar already with their magazine "Develop", they include a CD-ROM with EACH issue. Someone at Adobe said the Apple drive worked just fine on the ol' Cube...if this is true then it would be a great thing as I could use the same ROM player on my Mac & my Cube. David
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/24/91)
In article <1789@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: > (Garance A. Drosehn) writes: > >My comment is not that NeXT doesn't admit that CD-ROM drives exist, > >it's that they don't give you any reason at all to buy one. > > Didn't this discussion start from the supposition that CD-ROM > might become NeXT's sole distribution medium for future Software > Releases? I don't think so. I think it started by suggesting that NeXT provide their distributions on CD-ROM (as an option, not as the sole distribution medium). I may have lost track though. We're also arguing a chicken-and-egg situation. You're saying that NeXT should not use CD-ROM's because nobody has a CD-ROM drive. I'm saying no one has a CD-ROM drive because there is absolutely nothing they can get for it. I think that if people at least had an *option* of getting the system distribution on CD-ROM, then many more people would hook up a CD-ROM drive to their NeXT. I'd like to stress *option* there. I don't think that NeXT should force people to get a CD-ROM drive. All I'd like to see is the different distribution media priced appropriately to the costs for NeXT. Then people could decide which medium is the one that's best for them. - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu ITS Systems Programmer (handles NeXT-type mail) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA
thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark R. Thomsen) (06/25/91)
Brian Cuthie writes Mark R. Thomsen writes: > >But consider this. There is nothing that suggests producers >will have to pay and markup if they support multiple media >(boxes in the store are marked with the media, order forms >have media to mark, NeXTconnection and campus sellers can >tailor, etc.). Why not let us pick from the range of media >(CD ROM, floptical, floppy) and then order our software >accordingly? > >Indeed, the media costs are a minor fraction of the price we >pay for software and most databases. I think the discussion >here might be a little backwards. Let us pick the devices we >prefer and then we order/buy media (to pop in) from a common >range. It won't cost much more for producers to go to master, >reproduction, or manufacturing companies for the different >media than it would for one media. > Well, I had to disagree somewhere... It's what makes the world go around, some days. Actually the cost of media, even floppies, is a *significant* cost in the manufacturing of comercial software. Consider that the average $500 program probably sells to the retailer for about $350. The distributor pays about $200 to $250 for it, and the total cost of manufacturing (manuals, labor, media, duplication, etc.) is <$50. If the program ships on 5 floppies, figure that the cost of a duplicated disk is maybe $1.50. Then, the $7.50 represented by the media, is approximately 15% of the total manufacturing cost. Obviosuly a dramatic change in media cost is going to be intolerable. Certainly an OD at a cost of around $175 isn't going to cut it. Similarly, most DOS software companies literally can't stand the idea that they must support two types of distribution media. It's a mess. You either put two sets in the box (expensive) or you handle it on a case by case basis (more expensive, and it irks your customers). Actually, this works. The wholesale for 5 floppies is $350. The wholesale for flopticals is $350-$7.50+$175=$517.50. The customer would pay more for the floptical in the store, but then he has bought a disk he can recycle. The idea is the producer passes on the differences in costs, which gets reflected in price differentials. The free market will undoubtably do the rest, lower and raise demands, etc. The software company should remain impervious to the media fashion, modulo stock. Managing stock with version changes is part of the real challenge for software companies. Now, in case you think the software company that sells a product (retail) for $500 that costs only $50 to manufacture, is ripping someone off, you would be suprised. I personally know people with relatively good sized companies that publish internationally distributed products (voted #1 by some magazines) who are healthy, but not obscenely profitable, on these margins. It costs real money to operate a software company. Costs add up. Media costs are non-trivial. I 'moonlight' in a software company and know the economics to a first order. The margin pays for a lot of stuff that makes it a company and a product developer. The company should do its best to lower costs, of course, but it should not hide true costs. When buying software I expect to pay for true costs of materials, manuals, etc. I know that the OD will be more expensive, and if I don't want the OD I will opt for floppies. If I want another OD, why not? The company probably got a bulk rate that will compare favorably to my purchasing one or two. >It could work. - brian Or it could not. If someone wants to continue this, I suggest start a thread on 'Software Distribution' ... CD-ROM Drives hides the topic a bit. Mark R. Thomsen
rbp@investor.pgh.pa.us (Bob Peirce #305) (06/25/91)
One idea I haven't seen expressed is ideal for CD-ROM. There are certain apps that are loaded and run constantly on most systems. I am told the longer you own a NeXT the worse it gets until you need more and more RAM to support everything, but that is another problem. Anyhow, the time to load versus the time to run is close to zero. Assuming the OS were distributed on CD-ROM, why not save some HD space and load these apps from CD-ROM each time? -- Bob Peirce, Pittsburgh, PA rbp@investor.pgh.pa.us 412-471-5320 venetia@investor.pgh.pa.us [NeXT Mail] ...!uunet!pitt!investor!rbp [UUCP]