izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (06/25/91)
In article <2422@solvalou.mech.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> mizo@helmine (Hideo Mizoguchi) writes: > >I phoned Canon and asked about this Japanese OS but I was told that you can buy >OS 2.0J for JPY 60,000 *IF YOU HAVE BOUGHT YOUR CUBE THROUGH CANON*. If not, >you'll have to pay JPY360,000. Yes, it's about $2,500. What kind of INSANE pricing is that? That's 80% of EDU price for a NeXTstation. Are they also trying to sell 2.1J to us in the US and the rest of the world at THAT price, or are they intimidating Japanese users and "parallel importers" who might try to get machines from the US directly instead of through Canon? Either case, Steve, please stop this insanity, before the rumer spreads that NeXT's Kanji system is nice but costs as much as the machine itself. Canon's attitude that the Japanese OS is just for the Japanese market is sad and unfortunate in this age. There are a lot of Japanese all over the world. There are also probably just as many non-native Japanese speakers who want to use NeXT for their work and study. We couldn't have bought a NeXT machine from Canon even if we wanted to. Then, aren't we entitled to 2.1J at the same price as users in Japan get? This is just plain stupid. There really should be just ONE NeXT OS for the entire world just as the NeXT machine can plug into the outlet anywhere in the world. 2.1J should be that OS (of course uninterested users can opt not to install Japanese fonts to save disk space.). Izumi Ohzawa [ 大澤五住 ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (415) 642-6440 Fax: (415) 642-3323 Internet: izumi@violet.berkeley.edu NeXTmail: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu
youki@newmars.ics.osaka-u.ac.jp (Youki Kadobayashi) (06/25/91)
>>>>> On 25 Jun 91 08:41:07 GMT, izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) said: > What kind of INSANE pricing is that? > That's 80% of EDU price for a NeXTstation. In Japan, it's little fraction of the price for a NeXTstation. There are no EDU discounts. NeXTstation costs more than $16,000 if my memory is correct. > We couldn't have bought a NeXT machine from Canon even if we > wanted to. Actually we can't buy NeXTstation even if we wanted to. The main purpose of Canon's investment to NeXT is, in fact, to protect Japanese workstation market from cheap NeXTs, so that every Japanese workstation vendors can sell workstations in much higher price (thus they can make much money). That's why Canon became Asian official dealer for NeXT Computer System, and that's why they did not offer EDU discount. Canon was a guinea pig to protect Japanese WS market; of course every other hardware vendors could do this role, but Canon had some good reason; Canon is a official dealer for Apple Macintosh and Canon was big enough to make such investment. Hey Canon, prove me wrong and offer EDU price, if you _really_ want to sell NeXTs!! (The opinion expressed above is solely of my own..) -- Youki Kadobayashi Information Network Architecture Lab. Dept. of Info. and Comp. Sci, Osaka University, Japan
yonezawa@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Noritake Yonezawa) (06/25/91)
izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >In article <2422@solvalou.mech.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> >mizo@helmine (Hideo Mizoguchi) writes: >> >>I phoned Canon and asked about this Japanese OS but I was told that you can buy >>OS 2.0J for JPY 60,000 *IF YOU HAVE BOUGHT YOUR CUBE THROUGH CANON*. If not, >>you'll have to pay JPY360,000. Yes, it's about $2,500. >What kind of INSANE pricing is that? >That's 80% of EDU price for a NeXTstation. If that pricing is true, NeXT and Canon will lose lots of potential customers. No Japanese Emacs? No Japanese TeX? Only Japanese front-end? Who will pay $2,500 for such an incomplete Japanese OS? -- Noritake Yonezawa [yonezawa@cs.uiuc.edu] Department of Computer Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.142851.24895@m.cs.uiuc.edu> yonezawa@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Noritake Yonezawa) writes: > >If that pricing is true, NeXT and Canon will lose lots of potential customers. >No Japanese Emacs? No Japanese TeX? Only Japanese front-end? >Who will pay $2,500 for such an incomplete Japanese OS? Nemacs, TeX, and Wnn already exists and running on NeXT (probably people using them are using 1.0 binaries as 2.0/2.1 has a lot of problems with these in compiling, kernel crashes). They are free, and you can get them now. It would be nice if they distribute these with the OS, but these are not for intended audience of the NeXT machines. They will probably bundle them if the distribution media has space for them (only CD and double-sided OD fits the bill.). Izumi Ohzawa [ $@Bg_78^=;(J ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (415) 642-6440 Fax: (415) 642-3323 Internet: izumi@violet.berkeley.edu NeXTmail: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu
izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (06/26/91)
In article <YOUKI.91Jun25205847@newmars.ics.osaka-u.ac.jp> youki@newmars.ics.osaka-u.ac.jp (Youki Kadobayashi) writes: > >>>>>> On 25 Jun 91 08:41:07 GMT, izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) said: >> What kind of INSANE pricing is that? >> That's 80% of EDU price for a NeXTstation. > >The main purpose of Canon's investment to NeXT is, in fact, to protect >Japanese workstation market from cheap NeXTs, so that every Japanese >workstation vendors can sell workstations in much higher price (thus >they can make much money). That's why Canon became Asian official >dealer for NeXT Computer System, and that's why they did not offer EDU >discount. > >Canon was a guinea pig to protect Japanese WS market; of course every >other hardware vendors could do this role, but Canon had some good >reason; Canon is a official dealer for Apple Macintosh and Canon was >big enough to make such investment. What? Are you suggesting that Canon and other workstation vendors are engaging in price fixing to protect high prices of workstations? That could well be true judging from their behavior so far. Time to send Ms. Carla Hills again to kick these guys asses. Izumi Ohzawa [ $@Bg_78^=;(J ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (415) 642-6440 Fax: (415) 642-3323 Internet: izumi@violet.berkeley.edu NeXTmail: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu
yonezawa@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Noritake Yonezawa) (06/26/91)
izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >Nemacs, TeX, and Wnn already exists and running on NeXT (probably >people using them are using 1.0 binaries as 2.0/2.1 has a >lot of problems with these in compiling, kernel crashes). >They are free, and you can get them now. I know, I know. But, why do we have to use such unstable programs on _$2,500_ OS? _$2,500_ OS should contain not only Japanese fonts but also usable Japanese applications, at least a Japanese word processor. I don't think `edit' with Japanese is a Japanese application. The machine is expensive. The OS is incredibly expensive. The Japanese environment is poor. NeXT never beat other Unix boxes in Japan. -- Noritake Yonezawa [yonezawa@cs.uiuc.edu] Department of Computer Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
yonezawa@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Noritake Yonezawa) (06/26/91)
izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >What? >Are you suggesting that Canon and other workstation vendors are >engaging in price fixing to protect high prices of workstations? >That could well be true judging from their behavior so far. Huh? Are there real workstation vendors in Japan? :-) :-) -- Noritake Yonezawa [yonezawa@cs.uiuc.edu] Department of Computer Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
windemut@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu (Andreas Windemuth) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun26.015554.12864@m.cs.uiuc.edu> yonezawa@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Noritake Yonezawa) writes: ... > I know, I know. But, why do we have to use such unstable programs > on _$2,500_ OS? _$2,500_ OS should contain not only Japanese fonts > but also usable Japanese applications, at least a Japanese word processor. > I don't think `edit' with Japanese is a Japanese application. > What's wrong with edit? ... -- Andreas Windemuth +-------------------------------------------------------------------- |Theoretical Biophysics windemut@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu |University of Illinois Tel: (217)-244-1612 |3121 Beckman Institute Fax: (217)-244-8371 |405 N Mathews, Urbana, IL61801 NeXTmail Ok +--------------------------------------------------------------------
youki@neptune.ics.osaka-u.ac.jp (Youki Kadobayashi) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun25.142851.24895@m.cs.uiuc.edu> yonezawa@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Noritake Yonezawa) writes: > If that pricing is true, NeXT and Canon will lose lots of potential > customers. Agreed. Canon will be again beaten by `parallel importers' :-) > No Japanese Emacs? No Japanese TeX? Only Japanese > front-end? Who will pay $2,500 for such an incomplete Japanese OS? Canon will release Nemacs and JTeX which runs on 2.1J. Of course they will be freely redistributable. These applications / building blocks are Kanji-capable: Workspace Manager Interface Builder Edit Draw NeXT mail Terminal (frequently dumps core..) Digital Librarian Preferences Fax Reader Preview Print Manager BuildDisk (file system is incompatible) Installer Application Kit (Text Class, Font Class, Pasteboard Server) Window Server The incompatibility of file system is serious problem if you have both SR 2.1 and SR 2.1J and they are net-less; you can't mount 2.1J's OD on 2.1. Some of conventional UNIX commands are also Kanji-aware: youki@genesis(2)$ ls /usr/nje/bin awk* diff* egrep* fgrep* jconv* more* rev* tip* write* cat* diff3* ex* find* lex* od* sed* vi* yacc* csh* ed* expand* fold* ls* page* sort* view* date* edit* expr* grep* macho* pr* talk* wc* Though their sales policy is INSANE, their Japanese OS is very fine, I think. I can't understand why people at Canon ported "brain-damaged" X window system to NeXT. -- Youki Kadobayashi Information Network Architecture Lab. Dept. of Info. and Comp. Sci, Osaka University, Japan
izumi@mindseye.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (06/28/91)
In article <YOUKI.91Jun28143802@neptune.ics.osaka-u.ac.jp> youki@neptune.ics.osaka-u.ac.jp (Youki Kadobayashi) writes: [Thank you for posting the list of Japanese-aware apps. and commands.] Is 2.1J actually shipping in Japan now? If not, are you speaking of experiences with a pre-release copy? > BuildDisk (file system is incompatible) > >The incompatibility of file system is serious problem if you have both >SR 2.1 and SR 2.1J and they are net-less; you can't mount 2.1J's OD on >2.1. This is very bad. Why did they have to mess with the filesystem format? Please elaborate on this. Does it go backward? That is, can you mount 2.1 OD/floppy on 2.1J system and do read/write? If so, is the disk written on 2.1J (but initialized on 2.1) still mountable on 2.1 system? How about the compatibility of NetInfo config server/clients. Can 2.1 NetInfo config server serve 2.1J clients? Izumi Ohzawa [ $@Bg_78^=;(J ] USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720 Telephone: (415) 642-6440 Fax: (415) 642-3323 Internet: izumi@violet.berkeley.edu NeXTmail: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu