[gnu.utils.bug] Changes in the GNU Mailing Lists

gnulists@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) (10/11/90)

The lists info-gnu-emacs, info-gcc and info-g++ were originally meant
solely for announcements from the GNU Project.  Over the years other
traffic has become predominant.  We have had an increasing number of
complaints from readers of these lists who want them to go back to
only announcements.

To get things back on course, we will moderate these three info-*
lists, change their newsgroups names to `announce' groups and create
three new `help' lists as well as a `sources' list for GNU Emacs.

We are also adding two new newsgroups to gate with two new mailing
lists:

gnu.groff.bug		bug-groff@prep.ai.mit.edu
gnu.smalltalk.bug	bug-gnu-smalltalk@prep.ai.mit.edu

If you don't get the gnUSENET newsgroups, subscribe by asking:
	bug-groff-request@prep.ai.mit.edu
or	bug-gnu-smalltalk-request@prep.ai.mit.edu

And lastly, all the gnu.*.bug newsgroups will be marked moderated on
the gnUSENET side.  We are doing this to insure that we have addresses
that we can reply to via mail.  No actual moderation of the gnu.*.bug
newsgroups will take place.  This change just insures that all bug
reports are mailed to prep.ai.mit.edu and then gated into gnUSENET.

These changes will take effect this afternoon, except that we will
wait a few days to start the actual human moderation of
info-gnu-emacs, info-gcc and info-g++.

NOTE: During the changeover period, there will probably be several
sets of duplicates seen on info-gnu-emacs, info-gcc, info-g++, and all
the bug-*@prep.ai.mit.edu mailing lists.  It will help us, if you wait
a week before starting to report them.  We expect them to die down in
2 to 3 days (which is the propagation time to the ends of gnUSENET).

Further details follow, and at the very end, the current copy of
etc/MAILINGLISTS from the GNU Emacs distribution.

* Create a list/newsgroup for GNU Emacs sources

gnu-emacs-sources@prep.ai.mit.edu	gnu.emacs.sources

This list/newsgroup will be for the posting, by their authors, of lisp
and C sources and patches that improve GNU Emacs.  Its contents will
be reviewed by FSF for inclusion in future releases of GNU Emacs.

If source or patches that were previously posted or a simple fix is
requested in help-gnu-emacs, please mail it to the requester.  Do NOT
repost it.  If you also want something that is requested, send mail to
the requester asking him to forward it to you.  This kind of traffic
is best handled by e-mail, not a broadcast medium that reaches
thousands of sites.

If the source is very long (>10k bytes) send mail offering to send it.
This prevents the requester from getting many redundant copies.

gnu-emacs-sources will start off having the combined readership of the
both the info-gnu-emacs and bug-gnu-emacs lists.  People who want off
this list should ask gnu-emacs-sources-request@prep.ai.mit.edu.

It will NOT be forwarded to any other USENET newsgroup.  If you are
reading this in comp.emacs and your site does NOT get gnUSENET, the
gnu.all alternative hierarchy, please get your USENET administrator
to get gnUSENET in, or ask gnu-emacs-sources-request@prep.ai.mit.edu
to add you to the list.

* Create these new lists/newsgroups for getting help

help-gnu-emacs@prep.ai.mit.edu	gnu.emacs.help
help-gcc@prep.ai.mit.edu 	gnu.gcc.help
help-g++@prep.ai.mit.edu 	gnu.g++.help

These forums will be a place for users and installers to seek help
>from the rest of the GNU community.  Do not expect developers to
regularly follow these lists, they are fixing bugs and making
improvements.

Announcements should go to the info-* list, bug reports to the bug-*
list, and everything else (except GNU Emacs source (see below)) should
be posted to the help-* list.

help-gnu-emacs will be forwarded to comp.emacs one way (as info-gnu-emacs is).

help-g++ will be forwarded to comp.lang.c++ one way (as info-g++ is).

Each help list will start off having the combined readership of the
respective info-* and bug-* lists.  People who want off a help mailing
list should ask help-*-request@prep.ai.mit.edu.

* Change info-gnu, info-gnu-emacs, info-gcc, info-g++

The old newsgroups gnu.emacs, gnu.gcc, and gnu.g++ will be deleted.
gnu.emacs.announce, gnu.gcc.announce, and gnu.g++.announce will be
created in their place.  They will be moderated gnUSENET newsgroups as
gnu.announce is.

Shortly after the help lists/newsgroups are underway, these three info
lists will be filtered as info-gnu/gnu.announce is, and will again
become just announcements from the GNU Project about the appropriate
program (and occasionally other relevant topics).

If you have done some GNU-related work you feel would make sense to
announce as part of the GNU project, please send it to an appropriate
info-list.

* etc/MAILINGLISTS from the GNU Emacs distribution:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     GNU Project Electronic Mailing Lists.  Last Updated 10 Oct 90

       Please report improvements in this to: gnu@prep.ai.mit.edu

* GNU mailing lists are also distributed as USENET news groups

The mailing lists are gated both ways with the gnu.all newsgroups at
ohio-state.edu.  The one-to-one correspondence is indicated below.  If
you don't know if your site is on USENET, ask your system administrator.
If you are a USENET site and don't get the gnu.all newsgroups, please
ask your USENET administrator to get them.  If he has your feeds ask
their feeds, you should win.  And everyone else wins: newsgroups make
better use of the limited bandwidth of the computer networks and your
home machine than mailing list traffic; and staying off the mailing
lists make better use of the people who maintain the lists and the
machines that the GNU people working with rms use (i.e. we have more
time to produce code!!).  Thanx.

* Getting the mailing lists directly

If several users at your site or local network want to read a list and
you aren't a USENET site, Project GNU would prefer that you would set up
one address that redistributes locally.  This reduces overhead on our
people and machines, your gateway machine, and the network(s) used to
transport the mail from us to you.

* How to subscribe to and report bugs in mailing lists

Send messages ABOUT these lists, such as reports of mail problems, or
requests to be added or removed, to help-gnu-emacs-request (or
info-gnu-request, bug-gdb-request, etc.), NOT to info-gnu-emacs (or
info-gnu, etc.).  These <LIST_NAME>-request addresses go only to the
people who can do something about your requests or problems, and thus
avoids disturbing everyone else.

Note that all GNU mailing lists are maintained by volunteers.  They get
behind occasionally.  Wait at least 3 or 4 days before asking again.
Thanks!

Many of the GNU mailing lists are very large being received by many
people.  Please don't send them anything that is not seriously important
to all their readers.  All GNU mailing lists are unmoderated, mail
reflectors, except info-gnu, info-gnu-emacs, info-gcc and info-g++.

All addresses below are in internet format.  Consult the mail guru for
your computer to figure out address syntaxes from other networks.  From
UUCP machines:
	..!ucbvax!prep.ai.mit.edu!ADDRESS
	..!uunet!prep.ai.mit.edu!ADDRESS

If a message you mail to a list is returned from a MAILER-DAEMON (often
with the line:
      ----- Transcript of session follows -----
 don't resend the message to the list.  All this return means is that
your original message failed to reach a few addresses on the list.  Such
messages are NEVER a reason to resend a piece of mail a 2nd time.  This
just bothers all (less the few delivery failures (which will probably
just fail again!)) of the readers of the list with a message they have
already seen.  It also wastes computer and network resources.

It is appropriate to send these to the -request address for a list, and
ask them to check the problem out.

* Send Specific Requests for Information to: gnu@prep.ai.mit.edu

Specific requests for information about obtaining GNU software, or GNU
activities in Cambridge and elsewhere can be directed to:
	gnu@prep.ai.mit.edu

* General Information about all lists

Please keep each message under 45,000 characters.  Some mailers bounce
messages that are longer than this.

Most of the time, when you reply to a message sent to a list, the reply
should not go to the list.  But most mail reading programs supply, by
default, all the recipients of the original as recipients of the reply.
Make a point of deleting the list address from the header when it does
not belong.  This prevents bothering all readers of a list, and reduces
network congestion.

* General Information about info-* lists

These lists and their newsgroups are meant for important announcements.
Most GNU projects info-* lists (and their corresponding gnu.*.announce
newsgroups) are moderated to keep their content significant and
relevant.  If you have a bug to report, send it to the bug-* list.  If
you need help on something else and the help-* list exists, ask it.

* General Information about help-* lists

These lists (and their newsgroups) exist for anyone to ask questions
about the GNU software that the list deals with.  The lists are read by
people who are willing to take the time to help other users.

* General Information about bug-* lists and reporting program bugs

If you think something is a bug in a program, it might be one; or, it
might be a misunderstanding or even a feature.  Before beginning to
report bugs, please read the section ``Reporting Emacs Bugs'' toward the
end of the GNU Emacs reference manual (or Emacs's built-in Info system)
for a discussion of how and when to send in bug reports.  For GNU
programs other than GNU Emacs, also consult their documentation for
their bug reporting procedures.  Always include the version number of
the GNU program, as well as the operating system and machine the program
was ran on (if the program doesn't have a version number, send the date
of the latest entry in the file ChangeLog).  For GNU Emacs bugs, type
"M-x emacs-version".  A debugger backtrace of any core dump, can also be
useful.  Be careful to separate out hypothesis from fact!  For bugs in
GNU Emacs lisp, set variable debug-on-error to t, and re-enter the
command(s) that cause the error message; Emacs will pop up a debug buffer
if something is wrong; please include a copy of the buffer in your bug
report.

Please don't send in a patch without a test case to illustrate the
problem the patch is supposed to fix.  Sometimes the patches aren't
correct or aren't the best way to do the job, and without a test case
there is no way to debug an alternate fix.

The purpose of reporting a bug is to enable the bug to be fixed for the
sake of the whole community of users.  You may or may not receive a
response; the maintainers will send one if that helps them find or
verify a fix.  Most GNU maintainers are volunteers and all are
overworked; they don't have time to help individuals and still fix the
bugs and make the improvements that everyone wants.  If you want help
for yourself in particular, you may have to hire someone.  The GNU
project maintains a list of people providing such services.  It is
distributed with GNU Emacs in file etc/SERVICE, and can be requested
>from gnu@prep.ai.mit.edu.

Anything addressed to the implementors and maintainers of a GNU program
via a bug-* list, should NOT be sent to the corresponding info-* or
help-* list.

Please DON'T post your bug reports on the gnu.* newsgroups!  Mail them
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anything sent to one will be propagated to the other; but if you post on
the newsgroup, the information about how to reach you is lost in the
message that goes on the mailing list.  It can be very important to know
how to reach you if there is anything in the bug report that we don't
understand.  Bug reports also reach the GNU maintainers quickest when
they are sent to the bug-* mailing list submittal address.

And please DON'T post your GNU bug reports to comp.* or other non gnu.*
newsgroups, they never make it to the GNU maintainers at all.  Please
mail them to bug-*@prep instead!

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See section '* General Information about info-* lists'.

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Don't trust pronouncements made on gnu-misc-discuss about what GNU is,
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USENET and gnUSENET readers are expected to have read ALL the articles
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Someone from the Free Software Foundation will attempt to follow this
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Remember, "GNUs Not Unix" and "gnUSENET is Not USENET".  We have
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Note that sending technical questions about specific GNU software to
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** gnUSENET newsgroup: gnu.emacs.bug
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It is the place to report GNU Emacs bugs by all users of GNU Emacs.

Send bugs in the GNU Emacs Lisp reference manual to:
	lisp-manual-bugs@prep.ai.mit.edu 

lisp-manual-bugs is neither a mailing list nor a gnUSENET newsgroup.
It's just a bug-reporting address.

Subscribers to bug-gnu-emacs automatically receive all
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See section '* General Information about bug-* lists and reporting
program bugs'.

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** gnUSENET newsgroup: gnu.emacs.sources
** Gnu Emacs source code to: gnu-emacs-sources@prep.ai.mit.edu

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Please do NOT discuss or request source code here.  Use
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Please do NOT announce that you have posted source code to
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requested in help-gnu-emacs, please mail it to the requester.  Do NOT
repost it.  If you also want something that is requested, send mail to
the requester asking him to forward it to you.  This kind of traffic is
best handled by e-mail, not by a broadcast medium that reaches thousands
of sites.

If the source is very long (>10k bytes) send mail offering to send it.
This prevents the requester from getting many redundant copies and saves
network bandwidth.

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** gnUSENET newsgroup: gnu.emacs.help	(and one-way into comp.emacs)
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help.  Please send bug reports to bug-gnu-emacs instead of posting them
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Since help-gnu-emacs a very large list, send it only those items that are
seriously important to many people.

If source or patches that were previously posted or a simple fix is
requested in help-gnu-emacs, please mail it to the requester.  Do NOT
repost it.  If you also want something that is requested, send mail to
the requester asking him to forward it to you.  This kind of traffic is
best handled by e-mail, not a broadcast medium that reaches thousands of
sites.

This list is also gated one way to USENET's newsgroup comp.emacs (once
known as net.emacs).  This one-way gating is done for users whose sites
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bug-gnu-emacs instead.

See section '* General Information about help-* lists'.

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The list is filtered to remove items meant for info-gnu-emacs-request,
that can be answered by the moderator without bothering the list, or
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info-gnu-emacs is also gated one way to USENET's newsgroup comp.emacs
(once known as net.emacs).  This one-way gating is done for users whose
sites get comp.emacs, but not gnu.emacs.announce.  Users at non-USENET
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Always report the version number of the operating system, hardware, and
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Please don't send in a patch without a test case to illustrate the
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* bug-gnu960-request@mipon2.intel.com to subscribe to bug-gnu960
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* gnu-manual-request@a.cs.uiuc.edu IS NOW DEFUNCT
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Send bugs in the GNU Emacs Lisp reference manual to:
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