tsmingay@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk (03/06/90)
Dear Rsts World, I am interested in any advice, information, software or references which give some guidance or assistance in migrating a RSTS BASIC+ application onto VAX ? Has anyone out there done it. What are the problems. Has anyone heard of and/or used a package called AUTOBASIC. I know little about RSTS but quite a lot about VAX/VMS. Thanks Simon Mingay
kph@dustbin.stars.flab.Fujitsu.JUNET (Kevin Paul Herbert) (03/08/90)
A few years ago, DEC put out a series of guides which were supposed to help with migration and compatibility. I believe that you can get these books for free through DEC, but I don't know how. Good luck, Kevin
terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy) (03/09/90)
In article <602.25f3799b@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk>, tsmingay@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk writes: > Dear Rsts World, Wow! There is life in this newsgroup! > I am interested in any advice, information, software or references which > give some guidance or assistance in migrating a RSTS BASIC+ application > onto VAX ? Well, there are two free guides available from DEC: The RSTS/VMS Compat- ibility guide and the BASIC migration guide. Both should be available from your local DEC office. There is also a BASIC Translator available from DEC's Center for Migration Services which attempts to translate most Basic-Plus and BP2 programs to VAX BASIC. It doesn't do a bad job, but if you used lots of SYS() calls, etc. you will have to re-write most of them. It really depends on what the appli- cation is doing. The Translator does help with the rote stuff, though - like converting LF-continued lines to &-continued. Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing terry@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, US terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (201) 915-9381 P.S. - I'm also the DECUS US RSTS SIG Newsletter Editor - feel free to post things here or ask questions via one of the net addresses given above.
geremin@decus.com.au (Big John from MEGATRONICS) (03/09/90)
In article <602.25f3799b@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk>, tsmingay@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk writes: > Dear Rsts World, > > I am interested in any advice, information, software or references which > give some guidance or assistance in migrating a RSTS BASIC+ application > onto VAX ? You had better have a good excuse for moving away from RSTS - especially in the UK where the PDP-11 is still king. > Has anyone out there done it. What are the problems. Yes - many people have done it - Digital have a recommended path - BASIC-PLUS-2 on RSTS - then to VAX BASIC. You need to give more details on your existing system. There was a product called ROS which emulated RSTS under VMS many years ago - but it was not recommended by Digital. What ffile system are you using - some places have emulated DMS500 on the VAX with success. How many programs, what budget do you have? > > Has anyone heard of and/or used a package called AUTOBASIC. I have not - but I know about BP2, BAS24K, BP3 and the LINK that will enable your RSTS system to do most of the things that VMS will do with a similar application. > > I know little about RSTS but quite a lot about VAX/VMS. I have used RSTS since 1978 and VMS since 1979 and still prefer the relative simplicity and efficiency of RSTS. Why do you need to change. Please speak to Peter Dick at Silver Programs in Basingstoke (phone UK 0256 - 881658) for more details on the benefits of RSTS. He is a noted user, designer and lecturer in the RSTS field and should be able to advise you well. If all else fails Digital have published a useful book, RSTS/E-VMS (in)Cimpatibility Guide, EJ-31490-41/88 and is freely available from all good VAX salesmen, if not dont buy his VAX. It is 1" thick and gives good hints on how what the differences in RSTS and VMS are (and those functions which have no corresponding VMS feature). It does not try to handle the differences between BASIC+ and VAX-BASIC. Digital did put out some translation tools with BP2 v1.6 but I suspect they are no longer supported or supplied. Please feel free to e-mail me re specific details of the task. Many commercial applications have been migrated from RSTS to VMS with great success. These range from word processing to Wholesale Banking to Manufacturing Packages - but the cost is usually fairly high due to the lack of a one-to-one correspondence between features and functions on the two systems. Best of luck, John G. +v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v*v+ > J. Geremin, geremin%decus.com.au@munnari.oz.au (Internet) < > RSTS SIG, PSI%(0)505224122018::Geremin (VAX/PSImail) < > DECUS South Pacific Chapter. Tel. +61 2 764 4855 ans M/C < >c/- MEGATRONICS, p.o.box S-5, Homebush South, 2140. Australia.< +*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*+
randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith) (03/10/90)
In article <602.25f3799b@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk>, tsmingay@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk writes: > I am interested in any advice, information, software or references which > give some guidance or assistance in migrating a RSTS BASIC+ application > onto VAX ? > > Has anyone out there done it. What are the problems. I only know of a package in the Decus Catalogue which is a utility called Basic-Plus System Dependancy Flagger. It's order number is 110682 on page 161 of the 1989/1990 Decus Library Software Catalogue, U.S. Chapter Edition. With it, you must know PDP-11 Basic as well as Vax Basic. It is in no way a magic pill. The problems are the package is quite verbose and not exactly specific what it's complaints are about. For example, all cases of Cvt$$() must be converted to Edit$(). The package doesn't tell you this, it just points at a problem on that particular line with a non-specific message about some problem with Edit$. No plain english to say Cvt$$() must be altered to Edit$(). You have to figure that out on your own. Since I was a long time Teco fan, I used Vtedit which put "&" at the end of all the wrap around lines and lines without labels. Vax Basic has some problems with that format and does not need the "/&" continuation format. Vax Basic is way ahead of PDP Basic+ and Basic+2. Many of the "enhancements" to PDP-11 Basic were just trying to accommodate the real improvements in Vax Basic. It turned PDP Basic into a dog, which used to be fairly quick. Compounding the incompatability with the virtual memory system, many of the problems with the PDP variety is dealing with the segmented architecture of the PDP. Namely overlays and the many problems they bring in converting such code. The conversion utility does not even recognize these issues, only syntax. I'm not in any way flaming the package or the author, which the Decus Catalogue lists as only Digital. There are realistic limits imposed by such a migration and, pardon the pun, basically, you have alot of work ahead. > Has anyone heard of and/or used a package called AUTOBASIC. I understand there is a Basic to C converter available from; JMI Software Consultant's, inc. P.O. Box 481 904 Sheble Lane Spring House, PA 19477 +1 215 628 0846 I've never used it but suspect it would have the same architectural problems mentioned. The package, last I heard, is $495. Could this be called AUTOBASIC??? > I know little about RSTS but quite a lot about VAX/VMS. I wish I new as much about VMS as I've forgotten about RSTS/E. :-} Anyone have any coupons redeemable for such an exchange? Cheers! - randy Usenet: randy@rls.uucp Bangpath: ...<backbone>!osu-cis!rls!randy Internet: rls!randy@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0).
stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen D Carter) (03/12/90)
From article <10392@rls.UUCP>, by randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith): > In article <602.25f3799b@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk>, tsmingay@brb.isnet.inmos.co.uk writes: > > - randy > > Usenet: randy@rls.uucp > Bangpath: ...<backbone>!osu-cis!rls!randy > Internet: rls!randy@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu > > (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). Upstart....! Stephen Carter, Systems Manager, The Administration, The University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9RH, UK Tel: +44 273 678203 Fax: +44 273 678335 JANET: stevedc@uk.ac.sussex.syma EARN/BITNET : stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk UUCP: stevedc@syma.uucp ARPA/INTERNET: stevedc%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7)
emcguire@cadfx.ccad.uiowa.edu (Ed McGuire,1410 EB,,) (03/13/90)
From article <10392@rls.UUCP>, by randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith): > (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). From article <2343@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, by stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen D Carter): > Upstart....! > (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7) Kids, you don't know how good you had it. peace. -- Ed (`Ready' since RSTS/E V06A-02.)
randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith) (03/14/90)
In article <2343@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Stephen D Carter) writes: > From article <10392@rls.UUCP>, by randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith): >> >> (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). > > Upstart....! > > Stephen Carter, Systems Manager, The Administration, > The University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9RH, UK > Tel: +44 273 678203 Fax: +44 273 678335 JANET: stevedc@uk.ac.sussex.syma > EARN/BITNET : stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk UUCP: stevedc@syma.uucp > ARPA/INTERNET: stevedc%syma.sussex.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk > > (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7) Aw, you're just a young 'un.... Besides, I had the sense to drop it before it became so slow. :-) Cheers! - randy Usenet: randy@rls.uucp Bangpath: ...<backbone>!osu-cis!rls!randy Internet: rls!randy@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) (03/14/90)
In article <920@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> emcguire@cadfx.ccad.uiowa.edu (Ed McGuire,1410 EB,,) writes: >From article <10392@rls.UUCP>, by randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith): >> (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). >From article <2343@syma.sussex.ac.uk>, by stevedc@syma.sussex.ac.uk >(Stephen D Carter): >> Upstart....! >> (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7) >Kids, you don't know how good you had it. >peace. -- Ed >(`Ready' since RSTS/E V06A-02.) Let's not bicker or MHB will get on and make us all feel like toddlers. By the way, if you ain't done a sysgen under dos then you really are a toddler. SJK (V05C - V7.0) Stephen Kurtzman | "Bud growing up at me, kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu | resentful face I see, | a harsh light seems to damn you, | is it because I am you?" -- Maggie Roche
thompson@cvg.enet.dec.com (03/14/90)
> >> (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). > >> (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7) > >(`Ready' since RSTS/E V06A-02.) > (V05C - V7.0) I quess it's who you know. I always felt like a new kid on the block because V4A had been out so long when I first started with it. Alfred Thompson
randy@rls.UUCP (Randall L. Smith) (03/15/90)
In article <23462@usc.edu>, kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) writes: > Let's not bicker or MHB will get on and make us all feel like toddlers. Seriously. Before I get unjustly labeled, my comment was only to warn of the lack of current knowledge, (i.e. only worked that time period) so some content could be out of date. Obviously, those of greater experience than mine paruse these waters. The 'veteran' comment may have been overstated. As that old codger watziz name was famous for saying, "No brag, just fact." Cheers! - randy Usenet: randy@rls.uucp Bangpath: ...<backbone>!osu-cis!rls!randy Internet: rls!randy@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
minow@mountn.dec.com (Martin Minow) (03/15/90)
In article <9214@shlump.nac.dec.com> thompson@cvg.enet.dec.com () writes: >> >> (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). >> >> (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7) >> >(`Ready' since RSTS/E V06A-02.) >> (V05C - V7.0) > ... V4A I think I still have some V4A-12 tapes (Dec- and paper-) in the basement somewhere. I also remember being looked down upon because I wasn't around for V3C (with 48-bit floating point). Martin Minow minow@thundr.enet.dec.com
friedman@chekov.UU.NET (Barry Friedman) (03/19/90)
Just to throw my $.02 into the pot, I did a port a while back of an MU-Basic (V1) system under RT11 to RSTS v7. The approach was simple: Port the interpreter and keep the application code intact. Of course there was RT11 emulation available & we didn't care about running unsupported software since MU-BASIC had already been cut loose :-) If you can get the source code to BASIC+ and a translator is available who knows, it might be cheaper then re-writing a complex application.
terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy) (03/19/90)
In article <2463@bnr-fos.UUCP>, friedman@chekov.UU.NET (Barry Friedman) writes: > If you can get the source code to BASIC+ and a translator is available > who knows, it might be cheaper then re-writing a complex application. Yes, you can get the source - it's part of the full RSTS source kit. It is available on your choice of magtape or fiche (I have the magtape version). However, VMS already has a very similar language - VAX BASIC. Up until BP2 V2.4 (RSTS/E) and VAX BASIC 3.0 (VMS), they shared the same source files (in Bliss) except for some system-dependant stuff. Yes, I know that BP2 isn't Basic+, but the tools for converting from + to 2 are well-known and available from a number of sources. The problem is that the programs you'll have problems with are those which use funny file open modes, or sys() calls, etc. These are pretty much ignored by Basic+ and are passed on to the monitor for processing. There is, of course, ROSS/V (at least I think that's the name) from EG&H, which provides as complete a RSTS environment as possible on the VAX. How- ever, I don't think it has been upgraded past RSTS V8 features, and it may not work with VMS V5. Also, it was designed as a migration aid, and the per- formance was not as high as native code would be. Of course, you could con- tact EG&H to see if they would tailor the package to your needs - however, if you really want to run a VAX as a slow PDP-11, why not just get another PDP-11 and save money? 8-) Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing terry@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, US terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (201) 915-9381
kph@dustbin.cisco.com (Kevin Paul Herbert) (03/21/90)
Actually, if the code is BASIC-PLUS, porting the ppcode interpreter to VMS would be rather interesting to do. You could probably get 32KW programs that ran really fast. If I were doing it, I'd write a portable ppcode interpreter in C and an I/O package which understood RSTS modes and SYS() calls. Kevin
ted@netcom.UUCP (Ted Sarbin) (03/21/90)
In article <1454@mountn.dec.com> minow@mountn.UUCP (Martin Minow) writes: >In article <9214@shlump.nac.dec.com> thompson@cvg.enet.dec.com () writes: >>> >> (7 Year veteran of RSTS, since rev 6C to 8.0). >>> >> (10 Year veteran of RSTS, since 7.0 to 9.7) >>> >(`Ready' since RSTS/E V06A-02.) >>> (V05C - V7.0) >> ... V4A > >I think I still have some V4A-12 tapes (Dec- and paper-) in the basement >somewhere. I also remember being looked down upon because I wasn't around >for V3C (with 48-bit floating point). > >Martin Minow >minow@thundr.enet.dec.com I was around for V3C, also V2A, and even V1B. A DOS-11 sysgen was a real advance from our original sysgen method. RSTS-11, customized for a particular installation, was assembled on a PDP-10, the binary punched out on paper tape, loaded on a PDP-11/20 using the paper tape software system, and transfered to DECtape. Then the DECtape was shipped to the customer. Any configuration change, including the amount of memory, required a new tape from Maynard. However, I can't claim to be an "original" RSTS user. At least, Nathan Teichholtz, George Berry, Tim Hart, Tom Evans, Tom Griffiths, and Jeff Scott preceeded me.