imp@crayview.msi.umn.edu (Chuck Lukaszewski) (08/03/88)
Let me expound on a real frustration of mine: Whenever I go someplace that I meet new people, be it a bar or a park or a concert or a store (so long as it is not technical) and I am asked what I do for a living, the answer 'work with computers' instantly stereotypes me. The men I talk to don't bring up sports or cars or 'REAL GUY' activities like drinking their butts under the table. The women I talk to start looking around for some- one else. I guess I should add here that I bear no physical resemblance to the 'hacker' - nor do I dress in the requisite plaid button-downs (OK, so now I'm stereotyping, but only a little). I speak well and fluently. To my knowledge, there is nothing about me other than that verbal response that creates this level of disinterest in the other party. This newsgroup is really respectable so far in its study of the attitude and environment that surrounds the technical person. One thing that does distinguish this board from soc.women is that it considers (so far) the male attitude from a 'how does it work' standpoint. I wish to quibble with the idea that all men grow up with the same education/role models/interests. I was an introverted, shy, groupie-ish programmer from the seventh grade until just before I finished high school, when I woke up and smelled the roses. The reason I realize I'm being stereotyped in the way I described earlier is that I lived in it for so long. I also happen to have very diverse tastes in music, liberal arts, science, speaking, business as well as computer programming. That makes it even easier to see how someone I am talking to will exclude certain areas of conversation and include others. OK, so we all adapt ourselves to our audiences. My point is that if you think about it, there is not a single consistent stereotype that you can lop men into. Maybe 4 out of 5 (and 4 out of 5 men are sheer jerks), but I see a tendency on this board to generalize about the men in computer companies and specifically, this 'wizard' business. I'll throw out another thought on organizational structure: In 'business' business firms (i.e. service companies) the breadwinners and the producers are often the same people (i.e. Mr. President performs the service as well as sells it) and those who are lower in the corporation look up to those in power and wish they could be like that. Why are we so tied up with this discussion of 'wizards?' Because in computer companies (service OR product) the marketing types and the computer types are very very different (the technical core again) and the respect of greatness is similarly confined. All this really means is that, since marketing types get to be presidents in technical firms and tech types get to be at best vice presidents (Hello Bill Joy) that the financial success (if that's what's important to you) is not going to be as great (male or female) on the tech side. Someone earlier made a point about learning both and/or starting your own company. In my view, that IS the way to go if you are interested in the greatest-possible diversity in job responsibility and in learning experience. Chuck [Do women who work with computers get the same stereotype? What sorts of responses do women get? TR]