fester%math.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (09/15/88)
In article<5729@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>emory!vicki@gatech.edu(Vicki Powers) writes >>Not true! I know that Bryn Mawr has a (admittedly small) Ph.D program >>in mathematics. When I interviewed there for a job, they had one Ph.D >>student. Other departments have graduate programs as well. I think >>most good women's college's expect their professors to be active >>researchers and thus any student who wanted advanced work would be able >>to get it. Lea Fester writes back >If a college has a *tiny* graduate program, from the point of view of >the *undergraduates* the college effectively has NO graduate program. >The benefit of a graduate program is, as I said, that when you run out >of undergraduate classes you can take graduate level classes - if the >program is so small (e.g. one PhD candidate) there probably AREN'T >any graduate level classes, and so effectively this advantage fails >to exist. I graduated in math from Bryn Mawr in 1985. What Lea says is correct so far. There aren't any specifically designated graduate classes, though there are some classes whose material approaches graduate level. (I went to math grad school, too.) An under- graduate can't just slip into a graduate class the way they could at Berkeley, for example. >Now regarding your last sentence, I unfortunately vehemently disagree. >When I ran out of upper division math courses to take, I went around >asking for someone to do an independent study class (called reading >courses in some places) with me. No one would. And Wellesley College >both considers itself, and is considered by most, to be a "good women's >college." The math department has its share of weak faculty, but it >also has its share of good researchers. This is not the issue. The >issue is VERY IMPORTANT, and I want to make sure I am not being too >subtle for most of the parents out there reading this. The issue is >that if, on a fundamental level, the teachers believe that women cannot >do mathematics, they will TEACH IT THAT WAY. And that is why being at >a coed school may be better. The teachers there may well also >believe that women can't do math, but THEY MUST TEACH TO EVERYONE, >and the coursework therefore will be of the appropriate calibre. Here, I disagree. At Bryn Mawr the teachers did believe that women could do mathematics at every level. The faculty even has equal numbers of men and women. And I believe you could have gotten your reading course at Bryn Mawr. Yet, I feel obliged to admit that math majors at Bryn Mawr, while getting a solid background and not being taught down to, do not get the kind of mathematical education that Princeton, for example, provides its most motivated students, through graduate classes and other programs. >It really hurts me to be having to say this, especially in public. But >it is true. I almost feel like you can't win. At a coed school you >might get shafted in all the ways women traditionally are, (though you >may not), and at a women's college you may get taught down to (though >you may not), in which case you are even worse off than in case 1. Given the above scenario, what you need is a women's college that does not teach down to women, and I think there are some out there. My personal experience leads me to believe this is the best approach. I attended a large public high school, where women were discouraged from taking math to the point that the honors classes started out evenly balanced and three years later were 90% male. I doubt that the women that stopped taking math then ever pursued it. They were shut out of the field altogether. Bryn Mawr had as many math majors as other schools its size, so at least it suceeded in getting larger numbers of women to a higher level of math than coed institutions manage. In fact, Bryn Mawr's all-female student body majors in equal numbers in the humanities (i.e. English, French, Classics) the social sciences (i.e. Sociology, Economics, Psychology) and physical sciences (i.e. Math, Physics, Chemistry). I would be interested to learn of any other school, single-sex or coed, that could claim this balance in choice of major by its female students. But, of course, what should be done is to change the scenario Lea describes. Women should be able to take advantages of the facilities that only large, coed schools now offer, without being shafted. Karen Zukor e-mail: zukor%logos.jpl.nasa.gov@hamlet.caltech.edu
skyler@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Patricia Roberts) (09/21/88)
A friend writes: >Lea Fester writes back >>The benefit of a graduate program is, as I said, that when you run out >>of undergraduate classes you can take graduate level classes - if the >>program is so small (e.g. one PhD candidate) there probably AREN'T >>any graduate level classes, and so effectively this advantage fails >>to exist. Offhand, I would think that once you ran out of undergraduate classes, you would be close enough to graduation that you could anticpate graduate level work in the graduate school you were planning to attend. In the meantime, you could complete your remaining coursework and graduate early, rather than filling in the remaining time with independent study. >>Now regarding your last sentence, I unfortunately vehemently disagree. >>When I ran out of upper division math courses to take, I went around >>asking for someone to do an independent study class (called reading >>courses in some places) with me. No one would. If this is because the teachers did not feel that women could not do independent study, then there is a problem. How would one prove that the teachers felt that way? If the proof were made, what corrective action could be taken (removing the prof from the faculty?). On the other hand, it might be that the teachers did not have the time/resources available to properly sponsor that level of work. Unless the women's college is in an isolated location, I would think there would be a university close enough that cross-registration could be done and graduate-level work pursued. I know this is the case at Wellesley. A summer co-worker of mine attended Wellesley and cross-registered at MIT to complete her computer science degree. >>The issue is VERY IMPORTANT, and I want to make sure I am not being too >>subtle for most of the parents out there reading this. The issue is >>that if, on a fundamental level, the teachers believe that women cannot >>do mathematics, they will TEACH IT THAT WAY. And that is why being at >>a coed school may be better. The teachers there may well also >>believe that women can't do math, but THEY MUST TEACH TO EVERYONE, >>and the coursework therefore will be of the appropriate calibre. I had a curious experience in a math course I had to take once to complete my computer science requirements. The professor not only assumed, but often stated, that he did not believe computer scientists could do mathematics, and so he had to teach down to their level. Instead of using mathematical notation, he would write pseudo-code to illustrate his points. I've had other professors who eyed minorities in the classroom, indicating that "some of the students might be here next semester" (an insinuation that they might drop or flunk the class). Considering the likelihood that such a person would offer assistance to a struggling minority student might be low (or the prof condescend to the struggling student), I would not be surprised that struggling students fulfill the prophecy set by the professor. Note all of this took place (and is probably still occurring) at a highly touted school with a top-flight graduate school. > Karen Zukor writes: > Yet, I feel obliged to admit that > math majors at Bryn Mawr, while getting a solid background and > not being taught down to, do not get the kind of mathematical > education that Princeton, for example, provides its most motivated > students, through graduate classes and other programs. This is not the fault of Bryn Mawr per se. It just so happens that Princeton is one of the top mathematics schools in the country, thus it will attract both the faculty that wish to pursue the best research, and the students that wish to learn it. >>It really hurts me to be having to say this, especially in public. But >>it is true. I almost feel like you can't win. At a coed school you >>might get shafted in all the ways women traditionally are, (though you >>may not), and at a women's college you may get taught down to (though >>you may not), in which case you are even worse off than in case 1. > Given the above scenario, what you need is a women's college that > does not teach down to women, and I think there are some out there. > But, of course, what should be done is to change the scenario Lea > describes. Women should be able to take advantages of the facilities > that only large, coed schools now offer, without being shafted. I do not wish to deny the realities that women get shafted, nor do I wish to be insensitive. I realize this is a sensitive issue, and something that is not easily reconciled. However, I feel compelled to point out that ultimately, the burden of being well-prepared for graduate study and beyond lies on the student, not the faculty. The faculty can only go so far as to see that the student is properly educated and motivated to excel in the field, but the student must provide the self-motivation and do the actual learning. If the student realizes they are not being told what they need to know, the student must take corrective action, which (unfortunately) may involve transferring to another school where the work is more challenging. I realize it is difficult to assess the lack of enrichment an undergraduate program provides until one has passed through a significant portion of the program, that oftentimes an entering freshman has no means by which to assess the potential for enrichment of the program, and that it is not as easy as I might make it sound to make changes in one's educational path. Perhaps a good solution is as early in the college years as possible, through guidance counseling, to clearly define the objectives that need to be met for a student to fulfill their educational requirements, and make arrangements for those needs to be met (within or without the college the student is currently attending). A difficult, expensive, and time-consuming problem, but well worth it in the long run.