skyler@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Patricia Roberts) (01/12/89)
I am very curious why more women don't post to the net and I'd like to find out why. I'd be very interested in hearing from women, whether or not they feel there is discrimination on the net, whether or not they feel intimidated. If there are specific incidents which have influenced the impression, I'd like to hear about them. I'll assume that anything I receive on this subject should NOT be posted, unless you tell me otherwise. I'd like, however, to summarize what I receive and at some point post that. If you don't even want your attitudes or experiences included ina name-less summary, please let me know. -Trish
tittle%glacier.ics.uci.edu@PARIS.ICS.UCI.EDU (Cindy Tittle) (01/12/89)
I don't really know *why* more women don't post to the net. But I can tell you where I am coming from and the impressions I have gotten on being a female poster on Usenet. I am a graduate student in the Computer Science department here; as such I have an account on our networked unix system. And about a year ago, one of the graduate students in my class arranged a feed site and installed the usenet software. There are about 100 graduate students here, and about 15-20 of us are women. As far as I know, I am the only woman who posts regularly from this site. (This will probably change once I get into the thesis phase, <grin>.) There are assorted CS undergraduates (~500 or so?) and "easy access" accounts available to anyone on this campus who also have usenet access. On the "neutral" groups -- like rec.arts.startrek, rec.food.cooking, comp.ibm.pc.binaries (where there is a very specific topical content) I have never experienced any problems... Only in the "polarized" groups -- like soc.men, soc.women, etc, have I *seen* (but not personally experienced) a lot of overt discrimination on the female posters. I don't have much trouble, but then I'm the one who posted the "No Flames Experiment" in lieu of the "No Male Postings" proposal, which I thought unneccessary. But a lot of women who speak out get stomped on, and I mean stomped on. There is very little critical discussion of views, which would be one thing, and a lot of name-calling, which doesn't get much of anywhere. In other words, a man will post something, some point of view perhaps, and others will take it up and discuss it, point other things out, ask questions to further clarify the original posting, etc. When women post views, quite often they are then "bashed" in which people call them "man-haters" or completely illogical, etc, without any *discussion* to their views. This isn't universal, of course, but it *is* a general thing. My opinion as to why there are so many female posters? I don't think that there are that many with access, and then those with access arent' necessarily interested in using it. I see very few females in my field, and I imagine that it is mostly from the CS departments in the universities, and computer related jobs that the usenet population is drawn. I know that there are public access sites, such as Portal, but you have to be aware of these services to use them. Perhaps in future years with more females in the computer fields and more females *using* computers, we will see a corresponding rise in the number of female posters. --Cindy
ron@hardees.rutgers.edu (01/13/89)
I was first going to say that the reason more women don't post is that they are more intelligent than the average person who goes shooting their mouth off on the net :-), but I fear there is a more insidious underlying reason. I had always figured that this field (computer hacking, etc...) that most of the major net news readers are involved in was a more enlightened group spiritually. For instance, the fact that homosexuality seemed to be more pronounced, and at least more open, lead me to believe that the community was more liberal and non-prejudiced. I guess my original vision was tinted by the way I thought the world ought to be. I was wrong. The same phenomena that allows normally sane and rational in real life to become raving flaming lunatics when shielded in their postings seems to show that the supposed enlightened individuals to be rather blatent sexists. The detatchment from face-to-face communications that blasting away from behind a keyboard provides allows these people to show a less gentle side to their personalities. What this means is that just as people with unpopular views get tired of being trounced upon stop participating, so do the woman. Using a user name that is indicates that the user is apparently female opens up all sorts of abuse both in posting and in on-line messages. Were it easy to determine a person's race from his user name, I'd expect that we'd see a lot of on-line racism as well. -Ron
pedersen@cartan.Berkeley.EDU (Sharon L. Pedersen) (01/13/89)
In article <6218@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> you write: > >I am very curious why more women don't post to the net and I'd >like to find out why. It's OK to post this. It is long--about 80 lines. First, do women post in proportion to their _access_ to the net? (I know, I apologize, this is the kind of bonehead question that sometimes makes me think, "Who cares what the statistics say is to be expected, I want to hear more women's voices!", or "Who cares what men are doing, I hear about them from dawn to dusk, I want to know about women!" Even so, it seems that the answer to this question has some relevance, although finding that answer won't be easy.) I sometimes post to the net. Thinking back over the past months, I recall posting: -- requests for information, e.g., "What's the law on carrying ID?" "What kinds of bicycle panniers do people like?" -- new information I've discovered that's made a difference in my life, e.g., "Ibuprofen relieves menstrual cramps completely!" "How to cycle effectively in traffic!" -- contributing a different viewpoint to a discussion, e.g., "_The_Princess_Bride_ isn't _completely_ wonderful, because of the idiot way the character Buttercup is presented" (in response to a posting that TPB was a fantastic movie) -- contributing stories of my (or my friends') experience to a thread, e.g., "A Tale of Two Math Majors" (to a thread about women and being encouraged or discouraged from math). Sometimes these stories present a different view from what's been said so far; sometimes they enthusiastically "second the motion"--"Gosh are you ever right, let me tell you what happened to _me_!" I sometimes refrain from posting, even though I've had definite thoughts in response to an article. Sometimes I feel OK about not posting. For example, -- I agree with a posting and it reminds me of something in my life, but I don't think what I have to say is sufficiently different from what anyone alse has said on the subject to be worth using the bandwidth. -- I disagree vehemently with a posting, but I don't think I'm going to change anybody's mind by what I could say. Sometimes I don't feel OK about not posting. I want to post, but I don't quite know what to say. For example, -- I disagree very much with someone, and think that I could change some people's minds, but I feel like any response I make will be rude to the original poster. (Maybe I could learn that disagreeing does not make me disagreeable?) -- My reaction has its roots in my feminism, and I'm afraid I'll get flamed for introducing "irrelevant/whining/stupid/over-sensitive/reverse-sexist politics" into a nice apolitical newsgroup. Which I don't agree with--the personal is political, and, other people's worldviews are as much a part of their posts on _any_ sumject as my worldview is of mine, and, anyway, feminism is the only reasonable way to think :-)--but still the fear of being attacked makes me hesitate to post. It's one thing to be told, "I didn't experience it that way." It's quite another to be told, "I didn't experience it that way, and you shouldn't have either, and even if you did, I don't want to hear about it." -- --Sharon Pedersen pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu, ucbvax!cartan!pedersen
marcia%hpindda@hp-sde.sde.hp.com (Marcia Bednarcyk) (01/13/89)
>I am very curious why more women don't post to the net and I'd >like to find out why. I'd be very interested in hearing from women, >whether or not they feel there is discrimination on the net, whether >or not they feel intimidated. The main reason I don't post more often is time. I read many newsgroups, but my job takes a lot of time and effort, and usually I just don't have the extra time it takes to compose an article or a response. The other major reason is that I feel I don't have anything to add on many subjects. Either someone's already made my point (and I'm not going to waste my time and bandwidth on "me too" postings), or I don't have any knowledge of that area, or the subject doesn't interest me. A third reason is that I do a lot of email correspondence, particularly if I want to discuss a point in someone's posting in more detail. I know I end up skipping subjects if the level of detail goes beyond where I'm interested, so I try not to add more. I've been on the net for about 2.5 years, and I've never once experienced any intimidation or discrimination. I also haven't stopped myself from posting what I honestly thought because I thought it might bring on a hostile reaction. The only reaction I've ever had that was directly linked to my gender happened in soc.singles, when, in response to someone whining "Where are all the single women?" I thoughtlessly replied, "Where are all the single men?" I got a lot of email after that...no real problems, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Marcia Bednarcyk ADDRESS: (hplabs, sun, ucbvax, uunet)!hpda!marcia marcia%hpda@hplabs.hp.com "Sweaty Snugglebunnies."
eric@purdue.edu (Eric S. Raymond) (01/19/89)
In <6227@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> pedersen@cartan.Berkeley.EDU (Sharon L. Pedersen) writes: >Which I don't agree with--the personal is political, This really jarred me, coming as it did near the end of what I considered an otherwise excellent and revelatory posting on one woman's experience of the net. I think it reflects a belief which, though common, is both false and dangerous. I have posted a discussion of the nature of the danger to talk.politics.theory. Yes, I hope you will work on fearing being attacked less; remember, it's all just ones and zeros.... -- Eric S. Raymond (the mad mastermind of TMN-Netnews) Email: eric@snark.uu.net CompuServe: [72037,2306] Post: 22 S. Warren Avenue, Malvern, PA 19355 Phone: (215)-296-5718
joanne@hpccc.hp.com (Joanne Petersen) (01/26/89)
I've posted in various groups (political and apolitical) and haven't been
flamed by anyone. Now, it's possible that the content of my postings is so
generic as to not offend anyone, or it's possible that they're so confusing
no one knows what I've said. But I haven't had any personal attacks to either
my sex or race (when I was posting under my maiden name, Hiratsuka, which is
Japanese).
As to why women don't post -- well, there aren't as many of them on the net,
I believe, as there are men, so there's a smaller population to begin with.
And then a lot of women are unwilling to take a chance on being flamed. Some
are naturally shy and don't want to express themselves in public. Whether we
(the net posters) could do anything to encourage non-posters ("lurkers" -- we
even give them a bad name!) is something I can't answer either.....
joanne petersen