cudat@mcnc.org (J M Hicks) (05/03/89)
In the 13th April 1989 edition of "Computing", there is an interview with Cally Ware, a product manager with the systems house Hoskyns. An excerpt:- "What advice would she give to young women determined to make the most of a career in ... computing? "'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" Would readers agree or disagree? -- J. M. Hicks (a.k.a. Hilary), Computing Services, Warwick University, Coventry, England. CV4 7AL On JANET: cudat@UK.AC.WARWICK.CU (in the U.K.) >From BITNET: cudat@CU.WARWICK.AC.UK >From Internet: try cudat%cu.warwick.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu (untested) On Usenet: cudat%cu.warwick.ac.uk@ukc.uucp or ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!cudat
slf@lll-crg.llnl.gov (Sharon Lynne Fisher) (05/05/89)
>"What advice would she give to young women determined to make the most >of a career in ... computing? >"'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" What the hell does that mean? Enjoy the fact that I can, say, wear a dress to work? Is she saying that men program one way and women program another, and women shouldn't try to program a man's way? This is such a vague, non-specific statement, and if I had been the reporter, I would have asked for more details.
cam%EDAI.ED.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Chris Malcolm cam@uk.ac.ed.edai 031 667 1011) (05/06/89)
In article <6938@ecsvax.UUCP> gatech!cs.utexas.edu!cu.warwick.ac.uk!cudat@mcnc.org (J M Hicks) writes: >"... advice ... to young women determined to make the most >of a career in ... computing? > >"'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" > >Would readers agree or disagree? It seems the strongest competitive strategy to exploit one's natural talents (where these are appropriate) rather than trying to emulate other people's. To emulate men would either be an admission that womanliness was ill-fitted to computing, or else that the computing culture was irretrievably male-dominated. If I were a woman I'd take a LOT of punishment before agreeing to either possibility - which is the kind of thing a man _would_ say :-) But you do have to _compete_ in a hierarchical meritocracy, whatever the flavour of your gender. If you want to win without the overt aggression of open competition, there is always the old schoolyard strategy of the clever cissy: trade brains for dominance in an alliance of mutual benefit with someone more frightening but less smart. This strategy can quite often be observed in male managers in large high-tech organisations - an upwardly mobile couple, one who can dominate people but doesn't understand technicalities, and the other, an irretrievably ineffectual techie, who can tell him when and who and why to dominate, and who gets promoted in the monster's wake. Most radically, start your own non-competitive organisation. Some studies have suggested that the best code is produced by non-possessive programming teams who collaborate freely as a matter of course in all phases of programming, without either wanting the personal kudos of the star or fearing the shame of public mistakes. It sounds an easier style for a female team. -- Chris Malcolm cam@uk.ac.ed.edai 031 667 1011 x2550 Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
jeremy@ppgbms (Jeremy Levine) (05/09/89)
>>Message-ID: <6938@ecsvax.UUCP> >>Date: 3 May 89 08:32:03 GMT >>Sender: skyler@ecsvax.UUCP >>In the 13th April 1989 edition of "Computing", there is an interview >>with Cally Ware, a product manager with the systems house Hoskyns. >>An excerpt:- >> >>"What advice would she give to young women determined to make the most >>of a career in ... computing? >>"'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" >>Would readers agree or disagree? I happen to be a male, but I love to read the news so I thought I might reply to this posting. I think it's trash, "... own terms .." what is this ?? I like to think that computer science is an open field. I feel that from the start CS had good ( yes, NOT great ) opportunities for women. How can we forget Ada Lovelace ( the first software engineer ), Grace Hopper and a slew of University Faculty members. The competition between people in the field of computing is totally ( at least should be ) intellectual. One of the most fantastically knowledgeable teachers I ever had was a women and a rather young women. As I understand it Sun Micro- systems is hiring more and more women. Which I think is a good move. while I was in school I was part of the student software support team for 2 vax 785's 2 vax 750's 1 sperry 7000/40 and about 50 sun workstations. All of these systems were under the control of one very intelligent female. I say compete, beat and take over the field for all I care .... I just want to work with the best .......... Jeremy Levine - Amarex Technology Inc.- UNIX UNIx UNix Unix unix..... {uunet, decvax, sunybcs}!ppgbms!jeremy@philabs.philips.com or sunybcs!levine levine@cs.buffalo.edu (not read that often)
skyler@ecsvax.UUCP (Patricia Roberts) (05/10/89)
[I've compiled some of the responses to the original posting. TR] From: "I.F.James" <ifj@ukc.ac.uk> Newsgroups: comp.society.women Subject: Re: Women competing with men Message-Id: <2931@gos.ukc.ac.uk> Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Status: R In article <6938@ecsvax.UUCP> gatech!cs.utexas.edu!cu.warwick.ac.uk!cudat@mcnc.org (J M Hicks) writes: >"'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" If the writer is suggesting that women should not compete in the way that men compete, I would thouroughly agree. I do not think that men should compete in the way that they compete. One of the factors that causes me to prefer the woman bosses I have had is that the only thing I am required to prove is that I can do my job, not constantly prove my worth in some sort of tribal macho hierarchy. Fraser James. From denning@src.dec.com Mon May 8 17:34:02 1989 From: denning@src.dec.com (Dorothy Denning) Message-Id: <8905081824.AA27394@jumbo.pa.dec.com> My advice, which applies to any career path, is Be aware of what you and others are doing at all times. Do what needs to be done and what you are capable of doing. Don't think in terms of "men" vs. "woman" or in terms of competition. Dorothy Denning From: Alastair Milne <milne@ics.UCI.EDU> Message-Id: <13691@paris.ics.uci.edu> I'm not even sure what she means. What does she consider men's "own terms"? A certain set of subjects? A sort of behaviour or attitude? (maybe having the whole article would tell me, but I don't have it.) I can think of a couple of very different meanings: - all the highly technical stuff is dominated by men, so be satisfied with the alternate areas where you can do well; (i.e. "men's terms" means very technical areas) OR - the fact that you are aiming for an area in which men have so far predominated does not mean you should try to assume male ways of working, and you should in fact avoid trying to do so. (i.e. "men's terms" means male comportment and behaviour). Assuming that one of these comes close, I certainly hope it's the second. I do hope she was clearer in the article. Alastair Milne From: joi@cbnewsc.ATT.COM (joy.m.grosekemper) Message-Id: <713@cbnewsc.ATT.COM> > I happen to be a male, but I love to read the news so I thought I might > reply to this posting. > > I think it's trash, "... own terms .." what is this ?? I like to think that You may think it's trash, but really, it's not. I believe what she's referring to is the difference in styles of men and women. We've had several discussions at our women's group here discussing this, and have noticed that men tend to *appear* more confident, more aggressive (assertive?), and less questioning of their abilities than women. [stuff deleted] > I say compete, beat and take over the field for all I care .... I just > want to work with the best .......... I couldn't agree with you more that I just want to work with the best! And I don't care what gender, color, religious persuasion, or anything else! BUT, I for one compete only with myself. I'd rather see teamwork than competition emphasised in a work environment. I think a lot more is accomplished that way. Yes, in a way one competes just by virtue of test taking (at school) and then job hunting, but I still think the emphasis should be on improving your own knowledge and skills. Everything else will take care of itself. joi
hutson@ttidca.TTI.COM (Sherry Hutson) (05/11/89)
In article <6938@ecsvax.UUCP> gatech!cs.utexas.edu!cu.warwick.ac.uk!cudat@mcnc.org (J M Hicks) writes: >"'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" >Would readers agree or disagree? I am assuming this person meant "Don't feel the need to emulate male behavior", and I wholeheartedly agree! sherry [What does the original author mean by "on their own terms?" Was this advice particular to women in computing? TR]
tan@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Greer Hsing Tan) (05/16/89)
In article <6962@ecsvax.UUCP> moe!jeremy@ppgbms (Jeremy Levine) writes: >>>Sender: skyler@ecsvax.UUCP >>>In the 13th April 1989 edition of "Computing", there is an interview >>>with Cally Ware, a product manager with the systems house Hoskyns. >>>An excerpt:- >>> >>>"What advice would she give to young women determined to make the most >>>of a career in ... computing? >>>"'Enjoy being a woman and don't compete with men on their own terms.'" >>>Would readers agree or disagree? > >I happen to be a male, but I love to read the news so I thought I might >reply to this posting. > >I think it's trash, "... own terms .." what is this ?? I like to think that >computer science is an open field. I feel that from the start CS had >good ( yes, NOT great ) opportunities for women. How can we forget >Ada Lovelace ( the first software engineer ), Grace Hopper and a slew >of University Faculty members. The competition between people in the >field of computing is totally ( at least should be ) intellectual. > Yes. I agree that the competition between people in the field of computing should be totally intellectual, but there are social pressures against women in computing, engineering and sciences. The brilliant women that you mention were not only smart, but they were also strong and knew how to play the game right ... namely, the men's game. God created man and woman to be different (whether you believe in God or not, you *have* to believe in the difference in male and female biologically as well as chemical make-up.) ... and the complications of society and environment, we've gotten a lot of biological stuff mixed upwith behavior which inevitably has an affect on the concept of ability. As it turns out, man had the head start and took over the world of business, industry and thinking in general. He tailored the world to himself. The problem with playing catch-up is that the temptation is to follow in the leaders footsteps. I think what Cathy Ware was trying to say was that women have to realize that what we really ought to do is to build our own road. We can get to the same places, build an equivalent and compatible business world, that is tailored to us. One need not shun her femininity to become a businessman, but rather glory in her womanhood and thus succeed. I'm not saying that men and women are so incredibly different, but there are subtle differences in the way corporate america is run today that favor the success of a man, and sometimes works to the disadvantage of a woman. Why not? It's been created and run by men since the beginning? Is it not human for men to have taken advantage whenever and whereever he could? How was he to know what tailorings were to the fact he was human and what tailorings were to the fact he was a man? Now woman comes along after being forbidden from this territory for so long and discovers, yes ... there is a certain amount of humanness here ... but there is also a certain amount of 'male' that she need not accomodate and can replace with her 'female' to achieve the same result. >One of the most fantastically knowledgeable teachers I ever had >was a women and a rather young women. As I understand it Sun Micro- >systems is hiring more and more women. Which I think is a good >move. We aren't arguing about women's capability. Your examples all prove that women can be brilliant computer scientists ... so why aren't there more women in the field? In engineering? In corporate america with managment/executive positions? The ratio doesn't even come close to the population ratio of women to men. That is the whole point! With the equivalent capaiblities, how does a woman and a man achieve the same goals? And the answer is, she does it like a woman, and he does it like a man. If she tries to do it like a man, which has been the common accepted way so far, she has to work a lot harder and she is less likely to succeed (thus there are so few ... currently). > >while I was in school I was part of the student software support team >for 2 vax 785's 2 vax 750's 1 sperry 7000/40 and about 50 sun workstations. >All of these systems were under the control of one very intelligent >female. > >I say compete, beat and take over the field for all I care .... I just >want to work with the best .......... > >Jeremy Levine - Amarex Technology Inc.- UNIX UNIx UNix Unix unix..... > Things are changing, and Cathy Ware is just trying to point out where women are succeeding and achieving equivalence and how. I believe that a woman can be a woman, with all her feminine virtues and assets, and work side by side with other men and women. That she *must* be the woman that she is inorder to succeed ... because she will be that much more at ease with herself, and that much more self confident of herself. Greer