wjb@burl.UUCP (Neutron Dog) (10/25/84)
The bug missed--More--
Most netters seem to realize that the two-handed sword is the most
formidable unenchanted weapon in the dungeon. From reading
net.games.rogue, I get the impression that most people also seem to
think that the two-handed sword is therefore the best target for
enchantment. This article will show that this is not necessarily true.
First, let me state an assumption. If my assumption is wrong, all
bets are off; hit your break key and ignore the rest of this item.
When you read an enchant weapon scroll, sometimes it enhances the
number of dice thrown and sometimes it enhances the number of the
sides of the dice. My assumption is that that the odds of getting
the increase on either aspect is independant of how many increases
I've gotten on the other.
Next, a review. Tables are often circulated on the net showing the
damage caused by the different weapons available to the adventurer.
I have reproduced such a table for super-rogue 9.0. The notation
for the damage caused is given by XdY. This means that your
computer is pretending that it has X dice with Y sides each. It
rolls the dice for you; the sum of the faces is the number of hit
points taken from the monster (assuming that you hit). I have
calculated the expected damage caused by each weapon as the the sum
of the possible faces, divided by the number of sides, multiplied by
the number of dice.
Weapon Wielded Damage Expected Damage
______ ______ _______________
two-handed sword 3d6 10.5
bastard sword 2d7 8.0
trident 3d4 7.5
halbred 2d6 7.0
pike 1d12 6.5
bardiche 3d3 6.0
spetum 2d5 6.0
long sword 1d10 5.5
mace 2d4 5.0
spear 1d8 4.5
dagger 1d6 3.5
rock 1d2 1.5
crossbow bolt 1d2 1.5
short bow 1d1 1.0
arrow 1d1 1.0
dart 1d1 1.0
sling 0d0 0.0
That means in the long run, if you swing your weapons a million
times each, the average damage caused by each hit will approach what
I've posted in the table. As you can see by the table, the
two-handed sword has the highest expected damage. No surprises
there.
Now suppose I enchant a weapon. If I enchant a long sword, and
discover that it is now a +0,+1 long sword, that means that instead
of having a weapon that causes 1d10 (or 5.5 expected damage) I now
have a weapon that causes 1d11 (expected damage 6.0). If I enchant
it a number of times, eventually it will be something like a +3,+7
long sword.
Let's assume for the sake of arguement, that you are a seasoned
adventurer and can expect to survive long enough to make good use of
several enchant armor scrolls, or equivalently, you got a lucky
start in the game and start off with a +1,+0 (or anything like that)
pike.
A pike isn't worth much; its expected damage is only 6.5. But look!
A +1,+0 pike is better than a two-handed sword. Big deal, somebody
says, if I hadn't wasted a good enchant weapon scroll on a pike, I
could have had a +1,+0 two-hander. But enchant it again. I'll
grant you that you will enchant it a few times before you get
another increase in dice thrown, but assume that you will eventually
hit +2,+something status. A +2,+something pike is MORE DEADLY than
a +2,+something two-hander. That's because of the "12" in "1d12".
Any increase in the number of times you roll that 12-sided die is
going to have a dramatic increase in the amount of damage you do
when you hit.
The following table shows the relative expected damage of a
two-handed sword vs. a pike under varying enchantments of XdY.
Enchantment table Expected outcome of +Xd+Y
(two-handed sword/pike) +Y -->
10.5/6.5 12.0/7.0 13.5/7.5 15.0/8.0 16.5/8.5
14.0/13.0 16.0/14.0 18.0/15.0 20.0/16.0 22.0/17.0
+X 17.5/19.5 20.0/21.0 22.5/22.5 25.0/24.0 27.5/25.5
21.0/26.0 24.0/28.0 27.0/30.0 30.0/32.0 33.0/34.0
| 24.5/32.5 28.0/35.0 31.5/37.5 35.0/40.0 38.5/42.5
| 28.0/39.0 32.0/42.0 36.0/45.0 40.0/48.0 44.0/51.0
V 31.5/45.5 36.0/49.0 40.5/52.5 45.0/56.0 49.5/59.5
35.0/52.0 40.0/56.0 45.0/60.0 50.0/64.0 55.0/68.0
38.5/58.5 44.0/63.0 49.5/67.5 55.0/72.0 60.5/76.5
42.0/65.0 48.0/70.0 54.0/75.0 60.0/80.0 66.0/85.0
In super-rogue, if I'm playing to win, I can be sure that if I have
a pike, I'd do well to enchant it twice, then wield it as the weapon
of choice. A corollary is that if I'm waiting for a good weapon to
use my enchant armor scrolls on, I now know that I can not only make
do with a two-handed sword but I can also wreak havoc with a pike as
well.
--
--Neutron Doghalle1@houxz.UUCP (J.HALLE) (10/26/84)
Interesting article, but a wrong assumption renders it useless. The first number in the enchantment (i.e. x in +x,+y) is not an adjustment to the x in xdy, but an increase in the dexterity attribute, i.e. how likely you are to hit. Several months ago there was an analysis about which number was better to increase. The conclusion was that it depends. (It was somewhat complicated.) Anyway, if the premise of the article were correct, a -1,+100000 pike would be useless, since it would be 0d100001, or no hits. Also, the manner the second number is applied is incorrect. A 0,+1 weapon hits with the normal attribute, but when it connects, it does an extra point of damage in addition to the rolled amount. Thus a +5,+5 pike will do from 6 to 17 damage if it hits, and it is much more likely to hit, but that is only a little better than a 0,+1 two hander.
ksl@hou2e.UUCP (K.LIU) (10/27/84)
Sorry. A +x +y means: +x to the roll of AdB where A is # of dice and B is sides +y is to add y points damage to the monster Therefore, let's say you have a +1 +4 weapon which needs 12 to hit on a 1d20. Roll, 11. But wait, the +x adjustment makes it 12! Roll the damage, 2 points. Wow, but the +y makes it 6 points. Now you can figure it out. Enchanting a pike is not better. Gandalf
wjb@burl.UUCP (Neutron Dog) (10/31/84)
You feel embarrassed--More-- Well, at least it proved to be an educational experience. Now, is there anybody who can tell me what algorithm is iused to determine if I hit? -- --Neutron Dog
hobbit@sunybcs.UUCP (Thomas Pellitieri) (11/05/84)
In article <560@burl.UUCP> wjb@burl.UUCP (Neutron Dog) writes: >Most netters seem to realize that the two-handed sword is the most >formidable unenchanted weapon in the dungeon. From reading >net.games.rogue, I get the impression that most people also seem to >think that the two-handed sword is therefore the best target for >enchantment. This article will show that this is not necessarily true. >... >Now suppose I enchant a weapon. If I enchant a long sword, and >discover that it is now a +0,+1 long sword, that means that instead >of having a weapon that causes 1d10 (or 5.5 expected damage) I now >have a weapon that causes 1d11 (expected damage 6.0). If I enchant >it a number of times, eventually it will be something like a +3,+7 >long sword. >... >you will enchant it a few times before you get >another increase in dice thrown, but assume that you will eventually >hit +2,+something status. A +2,+something pike is MORE DEADLY than >a +2,+something two-hander. That's because of the "12" in "1d12". >Any increase in the number of times you roll that 12-sided die is >going to have a dramatic increase in the amount of damage you do >when you hit. Whoa!! What do you mean "Any increase in the number of times you roll"?? The pluses on a weapon (like a +X,+Y whatever) do not affect the dice which are rolled. The first plus is added to the probability that you will hit the monster (+1 = 5%). The second is ADDED TO THE DIE ROLL, so you would get a 1d10 + 1, not a 1d11. You only roll one die for the damage and add the damage bonus, you don't roll more dice! -- decvax!sunybcs!hobbit or seismo!rochester!rocksvax!sunybcs!hobbit "'Once Upon a Time' should be in the future Storytellers keep it in the past Dreaming's what improves us, Motivates and moves us, You won't be my first love, but you might be my last!"
adm@cbneb.UUCP (12/01/84)
>First, let me state an assumption. If my assumption is wrong, all >bets are off; hit your break key and ignore the rest of this item. >When you read an enchant weapon scroll, sometimes it enhances the >number of dice thrown and sometimes it enhances the number of the >sides of the dice. My assumption is that that the odds of getting >the increase on either aspect is independant of how many increases >I've gotten on the other. I'm not sure this assumption is true. My first assumption of how this works was that the first number of a +1 +2 two-handed sword means to add one to the result of throwing the to-hit dice, then, if you really did hit, you will get +2 added to the damage throw. If this assumtion is true, then the effectiveness of each weapon is kept linear. Does anybody have the poop on the real story? Craig Votava AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus ...ihnp4!cbnap!cmv
acsccjk@sunybcs.UUCP (Chris Kracik) (12/10/84)
> > > I'm not sure this assumption is true. > > My first assumption of how this works was that the first number of a > +1 +2 two-handed sword means to add one to the result of throwing the > to-hit dice, then, if you really did hit, you will get +2 added to the > damage throw. If this assumtion is true, then the effectiveness of each > weapon is kept linear. > > Does anybody have the poop on the real story? > > > Craig Votava > AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus > > ...ihnp4!cbnap!cmv if they are using official D & D notation, then your assumption is correct, but i am not 100 % they are using the d & d rules. chris kracik SUNYAB consultant