sdp@scbhq.UUCP (04/29/86)
References: (Eat Me!!!) U.S.A. - Last night on our local and national news, there was an announcement that the Russian's have experienced a nuclear accident, some where in south-west Russia. The news report said that it is believed there was a melt-down (China-Syndrome) in one of their nuclear power plants. Later on the news reported that it was believed there were 1000's injured in Kiev, the capital of the Ukrainian S.S.R. Kiev is located in the north-central part of U.S.S.R. Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your first hand reports, and comments. Stephen Powers South Central Bell Birmingham, Alabama
andersa@kuling.UUCP (Anders Andersson) (05/06/86)
In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: >Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >first hand reports, and comments. [This might quickly get either scientific or political. Direct followups as you wish, but remember that net.politics does not reach Europe by itself.] As western news media and authorities usually keep each others informed (with the sparse TASS bulletins in mind) of what they know, I suspect you can get almost the same info as I regarding the details of the Chernobyl accident itself, just by listening to the news. What might differ is the coverage of its various effects in neighbouring countries (i.e. Europe). An increase in radioactive radiation has been measured in several European countries. In Sweden, the increase has ranged from 2-100 times the usual background radiation (it's somewhat unclear to me what these figures really mean, as the background radiation itself can vary a lot between different geographical areas). The main peak was located just west of Uppsala (from where I'm writing this). This should be due to the rain which fell here on Monday the 28th and around. The radiation is now steadily decreasing. The total amount of radioactivity received here is about 1/1000 of what's considered really *dangerous*, about 1/50 of the *security limit* chosen for ordinary people, and about 1/5 of the limit chosen for pregnant women. Thus it seems very unlikely that someone here will actually get harmed from this. As radioactive material, mainly iodine-131, might concentrate on the ground, some precautions have been recommended. Among these, farmers have been advised to keep their milk-producing cows indoors a few days more, until the radioactivity in the grass has been declared below reasonable levels. Also, people are advised not to use rain water for drinking and cooking. I've heard similar reports from the FRG, Luxembourg and Austria. Eastern Europe is expected to have received a much higher amount of radioactivity. In Poland, children have been given iodine solution for protective reasons. I think in Romania people are advised to stay indoors, but reports from these areas are few as usual. Food imported from eastern Europe will be carefully checked for radioactive pollution before accepted. The accident has also resulted in a re-born debate on the Swedish nuclear power programme, and there have been demands for immediate closing of all Swedish nuclear reactors (of which none is said to have the same design as the misfortunate Chernobyl reactor). To throw in my personal opinion: "Rumors in Kiev say 2000 deaths"... I simply don't believe such a rumor (who could possibly have counted them, without the authorities' blessing?) until better proven. It might even be true that only two persons were killed, as they declare - I know nothing about what Chernobyl looks like geographically, and what kind of staff was at the plant on Saturday the 26th. If someone knows more, please tell us. What seems to be likely is that vast areas around the place are spoiled for several years, but for how long and how seriously is impossible to tell without any real, detailed information on what happened. Those tens of thousands of people who were evacuated (the entire population of Chernobyl, I guess) were said not to be able to return "within the nearest future". The silence and briefness of Soviet media on what's the most serious disaster ever with a nuclear power station is itself worrying, though not very surprising. On Tuesday evening (the 29th) Soviet sport television showed pictures from a sunny Kiev, where bicycle contests were held during the weekend, together with a public chess tournament (indoors). Though I don't understand Russian in any useful way, neither the television team nor the public seemed to recognize what was going on in their neighbourhood right then. I think it was on Wednesday they first mentioned the accident on the news. Later they accused western media and "certain powers" for exaggerating the whole thing "to miscredit the USSR". They themselves are to be blamed for most of the rumors, as they have strangled the flow of concrete information. They might be partially right in that we would most likely use another tone and ask different questions, in the case the accident should have happened in the west. Maybe we should think more about this, in order to improve our possibilities to communicate. I didn't say we have no reason for our tone and our questions. I don't worry the least for the Swedish people. I'm somewhat worried about what the effects will be in eastern Europe and in Balticum, perhaps Turkey (nothing has been said about Turkey so far). Most I'm worried about the situation for the people of Chernobyl and its surroundings. Being unable to help directly, one still wants to know what's going on, to be able to show sympathy at least - but the self-righteous attitude of the Soviet authorities quickly changes sympathy into frustration and anger. -- Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University, Sweden Phone: +46 18 183170 UUCP: andersa@kuling.UUCP (...!{seismo,mcvax}!enea!kuling!andersa)
storm@diku.UUCP (Kim Fabricius Storm) (05/06/86)
In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: >Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >first hand reports, and comments. I believe that we know just as little as you do over there. Most of Europe have been slightly polluted, but according to the experts there is no danger to our hel............... AAAAAAARRRRGHhh.. -- Accidentally the "China Syndrome" was shown on TV a few weeks ago, and I can still hear Jack Lemon (I can't remember the name of the character he played) say that "Only NASA have a higher security level than the Atomic Industries"; I immediately remembered the Challenger accident and now we hear about the Delta rocket - Is it a US power plant next time, or a German or a Swedish or a UK or a French or ... ?
stephen@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Stephen J. Muir) (05/07/86)
In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: >Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >first hand reports, and comments. By the time the nuclear cloud reached us, it was very low level. The only precaution we've been asked to observe is not to drink rainwater directly. Tap water etc. is OK. Drinking rainwater direct for a week is said to be equivalent exposure to 1 year's normal normal background radiation. Milk is being checked regularly, and it's been found safe so far. The background reading in the atmosphere is 20% above normal, and falling. It took a very long time for the Russians to admit more than 2 people were killed, and they still haven't come clean. They asked the West to put out the fire, and it's now under control. It seems some workers at the site survived by stripping naked in the loo and using their clothes to cover the openings in the loo. Of course, Reagan's spy sattelites were too busy watchin Libya! There was a fire at a nuclear plant not 10 miles from here (in Heysham). Fortunately, it was only a power transformer. The reactor was shut down immediately and there was no damage to it -- nor did any radiation leak. It is expected to remain shut down for a week. I believe the Scandinavian countries had it worse. -- UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!stephen DARPA: stephen%comp.lancs.ac.uk@ucl-cs | Post: University of Lancaster, JANET: stephen@uk.ac.lancs.comp | Department of Computing, Phone: +44 524 65201 Ext. 4120 | Bailrigg, Lancaster, UK. Project:Alvey ECLIPSE Distribution | LA1 4YR
de@comp.lancs.ac.uk (David England) (05/07/86)
In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: > >U.S.A. - Last night on our local and national news, there was an announcement >that the Russian's have experienced a nuclear accident, some where in south-west >Russia. The news report said that it is believed there was a melt-down >(China-Syndrome) in one of their nuclear power plants. Later on the news >reported that it was believed there were 1000's injured in Kiev, the capital >of the Ukrainian S.S.R. Kiev is located in the north-central part of U.S.S.R. > >Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >first hand reports, and comments. > The graphite core of the reactor caught fire and blew the top off the building. Unfortunately the Russians did not tell anyone about this and the first reports of anything unusual came when the Swedes reported high levels of radiation over their country. The Russians eventually said that 2 people had died and some 200+ were taken to hospital. However most Western European experts reckon many more are affected and that much of the USSR's prime agricultural land is contaminated. The fallout has wandered over much of Western Europe including Britain. Our Government says the levels here are not dangerous but ground level radiation in this spot is 40x higher than usual and we've been advised not to drink rainwater. Imports of food from the Eastern Bloc are banned and people are being advised not to travel there. The Russians now say (7-May-86) that the reactor is 'stable', but I believe it could still be giving out radioactivity. This is the situation as I understand it at present - as a computer hacker not a physicist. In the long term the Russians could food shortages due to contamination, a big rise in cancers over the next 20-40 years and a possible dent in their industrial expansion programs. David England -- "Welcome to Airstrip One" --------- UUCP : ..!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!de ARPA : de%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET : de@uk.ac.lancs.comp PHONE : +44 524 65201 Ext. 4586 POST : Univ. of Lancaster, Dept of Computing, Lancaster LA1 4YR, UK. PROJECT : Alvey ECLIPSE User Interface
howellg@idec.stc.co.uk (Gareth Howell) (05/08/86)
In article <144@comp.lancs.ac.uk> stephen@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Stephen J. Muir) writes: >In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: >>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >>first hand reports, and comments. > >being checked regularly, and it's been found safe so far. The background >reading in the atmosphere is 20% above normal, and falling. > I think you will find that figure was 20 *times* not 20%. However that is still very low. When it gets to 100 times, you start worrying. The head of the NRPB in the UK said that the figures were so low, and so subject to variation with respect to current safety levels that you could make a case that the radiation did you some good!! -- Gareth Howell <howellg@idec.stc.co.uk> STC Network Systems Limited | howellg%idec%tcom%ukc@mcvax.uucp UUCP Private Networks Business Centre | idec!howellg@seismo.CSS.GOV ARPA London Road, Stevenage, Herts | England, SG1 1YB | +44 (0)438 738294 |
gdmr@cstvax.UUCP (George D M Ross) (05/08/86)
Just a thought.... Radioactive pollution from the Chernobyl accident has now spread pretty widely around Europe, and indeed the rest of the world. It is reasonably easy to track, of course. Presumably other pollution from industrial sites also distributes itself equally widely, such as acidic emissions from coal-fired power stations etc.... -- George D M Ross, Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Edinburgh, Scotland Phone: +44 31-667 1081 x2730 JANET: gdmr@UK.AC.ed.cstvax --> ARPA: gdmr@cstvax.ed.AC.UK UUCP: <UK>!ukc!cstvax!gdmr
alastair@cs.paisley.ac.uk (Alastair McAvoy) (05/08/86)
In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: >References: > >(Eat Me!!!) > >U.S.A. - Last night on our local and national news, there was an announcement >that the Russian's have experienced a nuclear accident, some where in south-west >Russia. The news report said that it is believed there was a melt-down >(China-Syndrome) in one of their nuclear power plants. Later on the news >reported that it was believed there were 1000's injured in Kiev, the capital >of the Ukrainian S.S.R. Kiev is located in the north-central part of U.S.S.R. > >Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >first hand reports, and comments. > > Stephen Powers > South Central Bell > Birmingham, Alabama Well, lets put it this way, umbrellas are now called portable nuclear fall-out shelters. No, but seriously, a cloud of radioactive dust has been touring Europe (which is more than we can say for American tourists) causing concern among many countries in Europe - especially Austria and Poland. Some countries are advising that no milk or water be drunk and are giving children iodine to protect them against fall-out. In Britain the government has told us that there is nothing to worry about, as long as you don't drink rainwater, but the other day there, they said that the radiation measured in milk in Scotland was 10 - 30 Becquerels, contradicting an independent group's measurement of 390 Becquerels. Even so, because of the leakage more people are going to get cancer than under normal circumstances.
ir708@sdcc6.UUCP (ir708) (05/11/86)
> so subject to variation with respect to current safety levels that you > could make a case that the radiation did you some good!! > -- > Gareth Howell <howellg@idec.stc.co.uk> could someone please explain the possible "good" effects of radiation to someone who knows nothing about these things and is concerned about the long term effects as well. thanks.
pta@santra.UUCP (Pertti Tapola) (05/13/86)
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the effects of the Russian Nuclear Accident to Scandinavia. It is quite true, that Finnish authorities have made mistakes in informing people about the radiation levels in the first days after the accident. Contrary to popular belief, the problems have not been because of Finnish foreign politics but rather because there are some problems in the flow of information between the different authorities. Most of Finland has gotten very little of radiation, I think even less than Sweden. It has been because of the fortunate wind directions after the accident. The largest values of radiation have been measured at the west coast of Finland. The highest measurement that has been made there was 400 microroentgens per hour and at most sites the values have been well under 100 microroentgens per hour. Around Helsinki area the values have been 30 to 50 microroentgens per hour. The normal background radiation is about 10 to 20. The only warning given is that you should not drink rainwater. There have been not limitations in eating domestic vegetables, because of the season, there are yet none. Vegetables from Eastern Europe are checked very thoroughly. Finland is quite a safe place currently, what comes to radiation as well as terrorism. East Europe is worse off with radiation, and Middle and South Europe and Great Britain with terrorism. There have been no terrorist attacks in Finland, at least for 40 years. Welcome to the country of thousands of lakes (880 000 actually, they have been counted, would you believe?). ...mcvax!penet!santra!pta Pertti Tapola pta@fingate.bitnet Helsinki University of Technology pta%fingate.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu Computing Centre SF-02150 ESPOO, FINLAND -- ...mcvax!penet!santra!pta Pertti Tapola pta@fingate.bitnet Helsinki University of Technology pta%fingate.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu Computing Centre SF-02150 ESPOO, FINLAND
soren@olamb.UUCP (Soeren Rabbe) (05/13/86)
From article <642@argon.idec.stc.co.uk>, howellg@idec.stc.co.uk (Gareth Howell): >In article <144@comp.lancs.ac.uk> stephen@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Stephen J. Muir) writes: >>In article <228@scbhq.UUCP> sdp@scbhq.UUCP writes: >>>Europe, what is happening over there? I would greatly appreciate reading your >>>first hand reports, and comments. >> >>being checked regularly, and it's been found safe so far. The background >>reading in the atmosphere is 20% above normal, and falling. >> >I think you will find that figure was 20 *times* not 20%. However ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >that is still very low. When it gets to 100 times, you start >worrying. According to the official statements in Denmark, it WAS 20%. It seems like the radiation in the air above Denmark has been about 20% to 40% above normal. And it is falling. What worries me is the nature of the particles. It looks like most of the radiation comes from Iodine-131 which is easyly adopted in the body. What harm it has caused is unknown. But the half-life period is about 30 days, so the risk for further exposure will reduce fast. -- Soren Rabbe (AmbraSoft A/S, Denmark).
storm@diku.UUCP (Kim Fabricius Storm) (05/14/86)
In article <184@olamb.UUCP> soren@olamb.UUCP (Soeren Rabbe) writes: >>I think you will find that figure was 20 *times* not 20%. However >>that is still very low. When it gets to 100 times, you start >>worrying. >According to the official statements in Denmark, it WAS 20%. It seems like >the radiation in the air above Denmark has been about 20% to 40% above normal. >And it is falling. It was mentioned in the Swedish television this evening that the radiation in Stockholm was now between 100-1000 times less than immediately after the catastrophy in Tjernobyl. I was a little puzzled by this statement, since nobody have said that the radiation was a 100-1000 times higher than normal, but perhaps they meant that the increase in radiation is now 100-1000 times less than before? I really hope so! BTW. I heard that a soviet scientist compared the amount of radioactive material that have leaked out from Tjernobyl is comparable to *ONE* atomic bomb test in the Atmosphere. Does anyone have any figures that indicates a world-wide increase in the number of cancers as the result of the *MANY* atomic bomb tests performed in the 60's and the 70's ? Or as a result of the Soviet sattelite that crashed in Canada a couple of years ago ? ------------------ Kim F. Storm, storm@diku.UUCP (seismo!diku!storm) Institute of Datalogy(=CS), U of Copenhagen, Universitetsparken 1, DK-2100 OE
pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Paul M Koloc) (05/15/86)
In article <184@olamb.UUCP> soren@olamb.UUCP (Soeren Rabbe) writes: >the radiation in the air above Denmark has been about 20% to 40% above >normal. And it is falling... . most radiation comes from Iodine-131 which >is easyly adopted in the body. What harm it has caused is unknown. But >the half-life period is about 30 days, so the risk for further exposure >will reduce fast. It is the short half life that makes iodine dangerous. Iodine comes from the decay of xenon which can diffuse into the steel cooling pipes in reactors and decay to iodine and always be ready to wipe out plant workers in a couple of minutes if the pipe accidentally ruptures and the coolant is released in their presence for whatever reason. The isotope can get into the blood stream through breathing, drinking water or milk and eating sea foods that have a high uptake or even eating salads of leafy vegetables. The trouble comes from its concentration by grazing fish, krill, and land animals and in the human body the principle site of concentration is the thyroid. Embryos are especially sensitive.. ... by a more than a thousand times. Thyroid cancers can be above average for many decades beyond the date of exposure. Cesium is also quite hot (radioactive) and dangerous to human health. If there would be runaway reaction and melt through (China syndrome), then plutonium breeding would be a problem and the total radiation would be millions of times the levels in this case of the Urkrainian disaster. In spite of the utterances to the contrary, near worst scenario nuclear disasters could wipe out a genetically viable human race. There was 400,000 to 800,000 lbs of Uranium in the reactor that dusted us. We can thank God our earthly technology didn't spawn much of a problem this time around. Imagine the plutonium that thing could cook up in an uncontrolled runaway breeding frenzy. Oh! by the way there is a lot of diffusing radioactive gas bubbling out of the ground from the world's under ground military fission weapons tests, and this won't peak in the atmosphere for several more centuries. A little something to increase the night glow for the grand kids. Support your local innovative fusion shop. +---------------------------------------------------------+--------+ | Paul M. Koloc, President: (301) 445-1075 | FUSION | | Prometheus II, Ltd.; College Park, MD 20740-0222 | this | | {umcp-cs | seismo}!prometheus!pmk; pmk@prometheus.UUCP | decade | +---------------------------------------------------------+--------+
adam@miduet.mifnet.gec-mi-ate.co.uk (Adam Quantrill) (05/16/86)
In article <184@olamb.UUCP> soren@olamb.UUCP (Soeren Rabbe) writes: >It looks like most of the >radiation comes from Iodine-131 which is easily adopted in the body. What >harm it has caused is unknown. But the half-life period is about 30 days, >so the risk for further exposure will reduce fast. > Soren Rabbe (AmbraSoft A/S, Denmark). Actually, it's 8.05 days. I wonder why my supermarket has sold out of mineral water?.... -Adam.
ken@njitcccc.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) (05/16/86)
In article <230@prometheus.UUCP>, pmk@prometheus.UUCP (Paul M Koloc) writes: > It is the short half life that makes iodine dangerous. Iodine > comes from the decay of xenon Iodine 131 comes from either a neutron absorption of Iodine 130 with a neutron, or from decay of tellurium 131. Iodine 131 does transmute into xenon 131, which gives off an electron and then becomes stable, half life 12 days. > Thyroid cancers can be > above average for many decades beyond the date of exposure. Where did you get these figures? > > If there would be runaway reaction and melt through (China syndrome), > then plutonium breeding would be a problem and the total radiation > would be millions of times the levels in this case of the Urkrainian > disaster. A nuclear reactor is a rather finiky thing to keep operating. Plutonium breeding would tend not to be a problem since the reactor would have to stay somewhat intact to keep producing plutonium. In spite of the utterances to the contrary, near > worst scenario nuclear disasters could wipe out a genetically > viable human race. Repeat, what information do you have to support this? And, what information do you have that indicates why the rest of the scientific community is not correct. -- Kenneth Ng: uucp(unreliable) ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!njitcccc!ken bitnet(prefered) ken@njitcccc.bitnet New Jersey Institute of Technology Computerized Conferencing and Communications Center Newark, New Jersey 07102 Vulcan jealousy: "I fail to see the logic in prefering Stan over me" Number 5: "I need input"
pjanders@kcl-cs.UUCP (ZNAC801) (05/19/86)
This is a true story...... The British Embassy in Moscow being worried about radiation poisoning has advised all the British students living in Kiev and the surrounding areas to boil their water before drinking it. -- Paul Anderson. The Bicycle Repairman. Kings College London JANET: anderson%kcl-cs.UUCP@uk.ac.ucl.cs UUCP: ukc!kcl-cs!anderson, anderson@kcl-cs.UUCP DARPA: anderson%kcl-cs.UUCP@ucl-cs BT: 01-435 7141 x 636 OS: TQ253857 (Westfield) TQ308809 (Kings)
cramer@kontron.UUCP (05/20/86)
> Finland is quite a safe place currently, what comes to radiation > as well as terrorism. East Europe is worse off with radiation, and > Middle and South Europe and Great Britain with terrorism. > > There have been no terrorist attacks in Finland, at least for > 40 years. Welcome to the country of thousands of lakes > (880 000 actually, they have been counted, would you believe?). > > ...mcvax!penet!santra!pta Pertti Tapola > pta@fingate.bitnet Helsinki University of Technology > pta%fingate.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.edu Computing Centre > SF-02150 ESPOO, FINLAND Another reason to consider visiting Finland: Finland paid off their World War I debts to the U.S., unlike the rest of Europe. Clayton E. Cramer
kimcm@olamb.UUCP (Kim Chr. Madsen) (05/20/86)
How about: 1) Funny looking babies 2) No need for a bed-lamp (your head's glowing) 3) etc. etc. (-;
ken@njitcccc.UUCP (05/22/86)
In article <669@neon.kcl-cs.UUCP>, pjanders@kcl-cs.UUCP (ZNAC801) writes: > This is a true story...... > > The British Embassy in Moscow being worried about radiation > poisoning has advised all the British students living in Kiev and the > surrounding areas to boil their water before drinking it. Boil the water? What on earth for? It should already be sterilized (:-> Anyway, water filters might do some good. -- Kenneth Ng: uucp(unreliable) ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!njitcccc!ken bitnet(prefered) ken@njitcccc.bitnet New Jersey Institute of Technology Computerized Conferencing and Communications Center Newark, New Jersey 07102 Vulcan jealousy: "I fail to see the logic in prefering Stan over me" Number 5: "I need input"