rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) (05/01/91)
FLAME ON I just downloaded a handfull of shareware programs from CICA. They fell into two catagories; those that had little or no functionallity -and- those whose registration was so obnoxious that I couldn't even run them to see if they were worth the fee. I have no problem with the first type. When someone has a good idea it takes time and feedback to come up with a good implementation. However, I am pretty disgusted with so called commercial quality programs that annoy you to death BEFORE you even get to use them. My suggestion to budding shareware programmers is give us a MOSTLY fully functional program with no stupid order forms, warning boxes, etc. To insure registration just reduce the functionallity on a few functions (eg. allow it to print only a few pages, limit the size of the image, etc.). If I like what the program does, I'll pay the registration fee to get the full functionallity, manual, support, updates, etc. Try to act like a professional programmer before you act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better product and more people will want to pay for it. FLAME OFF
everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Everett Kaser) (05/01/91)
/ rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes... >FLAME ON >My suggestion to budding shareware programmers is give >us a MOSTLY fully functional program with no stupid >order forms, warning boxes, etc. To insure registration >just reduce the functionallity on a few functions >(eg. allow it to print only a few pages, limit the >size of the image, etc.). >Try to act like a professional programmer before you >act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better >product and more people will want to pay for it. >FLAME OFF I agree with your flame (for the most part), but the problem with your suggestion is that many other people hate IT, calling that type of product "crippleware". Everett Kaser Hewlett-Packard Company ...hplabs!hp-pcd!everett work: (503) 750-3569 Corvallis, Oregon everett%hpcvra@hplabs.hp.com home: (503) 928-5259 Albany, Oregon
mgjones@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Mike (Felix) Jones) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr30.174659.9082@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>, rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes: > FLAME ON [...] > Try to act like a professional programmer before you > act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better > product and more people will want to pay for it. > > FLAME OFF Like the Windows comm program that pops up that registration info everytime you try to do something. I got so sick of it I said bag it and never really got to try it out to see if I liked it or not. -Mike Jones- Systems Analysis Miami University (of Ohio)
chip@osh3.OSHA.GOV (Chip Yamasaki) (05/01/91)
In <1991Apr30.174659.9082@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes: >FLAME ON >I just downloaded a handfull of shareware programs >from CICA. They fell into two catagories; those that >had little or no functionallity -and- those whose >registration was so obnoxious that I couldn't even >run them to see if they were worth the fee. >I have no problem with the first type. When someone >has a good idea it takes time and feedback to come up >with a good implementation. However, I am pretty >disgusted with so called commercial quality programs >that annoy you to death BEFORE you even get to use them. I have used many shareware programs and have NEVER run into one that annoys me to death. I have seen some that remind you to register and or display a copyright screen while loading. Some programs even ask that you press a key to continue, HORRORS! How awful of them. Would you be serious. That is certainly not too much to ask. even running you through several screens is not THAT big a deal. >My suggestion to budding shareware programmers is give >us a MOSTLY fully functional program with no stupid >order forms, warning boxes, etc. To insure registration >just reduce the functionallity on a few functions >(eg. allow it to print only a few pages, limit the >size of the image, etc.). If I like what the program >does, I'll pay the registration fee to get the full >functionallity, manual, support, updates, etc. Don't you DARE listen to this absurd advice! The Association of ShareWare Professionals states that ShareWare programmers should distribute completely working, fully functional programs with no feature disabled. This is a wonderful concept. For making such a bad suggestion I sure hope that someday you run into a shareware programmer that takes your advice and maybe you'll get bit by that bug that occurs on that 11th page you couldn't print with the unregistered version. When I get a shareware program I know what I'm getting when I register. I can test everything! I can work with the full program. I can see all of the features. And, the only difference between what I got and what I get when I register is support, updates, and maybe a new disk and printed manual. Oh, and yes, I get to use the program without being reminded to register. >Try to act like a professional programmer before you >act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better >product and more people will want to pay for it. They are not only acting like professional programmers, but many of them are doing quite well. They are also producing some of the best software I've ever seen! >FLAME OFF -- -- Charles "Chip" Yamasaki chip@oshcomm.osha.gov
ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr30.174659.9082@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes: >FLAME ON : >My suggestion to budding shareware programmers is give >us a MOSTLY fully functional program with no stupid >order forms, warning boxes, etc. To insure registration : The lighter side of things is the terminology that has ensued like begware crippleware nagware And there must be more in the offing. ................................................................... Prof. Timo Salmi Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.12.37 School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
c60b-1eq@e260-1g.berkeley.edu (Noam Mendelson) (05/01/91)
In article <40790008@hpcvra.cv.hp.com.> everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Everett Kaser) writes: >/ rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes... >>FLAME ON >>My suggestion to budding shareware programmers is give >>us a MOSTLY fully functional program with no stupid >>order forms, warning boxes, etc. To insure registration >>just reduce the functionallity on a few functions >>(eg. allow it to print only a few pages, limit the >>size of the image, etc.). >>Try to act like a professional programmer before you >>act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better >>product and more people will want to pay for it. >>FLAME OFF >I agree with your flame (for the most part), but the problem with your >suggestion is that many other people hate IT, calling that type of product >"crippleware". I hate crippleware as well. Whenever I find one of these I don't ever bother testing the product, unless it's something extraordinary (which is rarely the case). However, I don't mind an occaisonal registration reminder as long as it isn't obnoxious (such as a timed delay of any sort). Guiltware is probably the most effective and least obnoxious form of shareware. If you as a program developer make a program more obnoxious to use, it will necessary be less attractive. -- +==========================================================================+ | Noam Mendelson ..!ucbvax!web!c60b-1eq | "I haven't lost my mind, | | c60b-1eq@web.Berkeley.EDU | it's backed up on tape | | University of California at Berkeley | somewhere." |
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (05/01/91)
ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) writes: |The lighter side of things is the terminology that has ensued like | begware | crippleware | nagware |And there must be more in the offing. And don't forget... threatware. More offal than offing is my verdict after downloading and testing about 500 pieces of pd and threatware since January. It's sad to see a badly written program--one with no sense of art whatsoever--accompanied with threats should one fail to pay. Sigh... -- ** Sean Casey <sean@s.ms.uky.edu>
c60b-1eq@web-1g.berkeley.edu (Noam Mendelson) (05/01/91)
In article <1991May01.022439.16596@osh3.OSHA.GOV> chip@osh3.OSHA.GOV (Chip Yamasaki) writes: >I have used many shareware programs and have NEVER run into one that >annoys me to death. I have seen some that remind you to register and or >display a copyright screen while loading. Some programs even ask that >you press a key to continue, HORRORS! How awful of them. How about programs that have timed delays? Or those which count the number of times they're used, and either nag you or annoy you to death (although it's trivial to work around counters, it is a pain)? I know ProComm Plus Test Drive was very annoying until I patched it to remove all those annoying messages (I ended up buying the commercial version, BTW). -- +==========================================================================+ | Noam Mendelson ..!ucbvax!web!c60b-1eq | "I haven't lost my mind, | | c60b-1eq@web.Berkeley.EDU | it's backed up on tape | | University of California at Berkeley | somewhere." |
jwbirdsa@amc.com (James Birdsall) (05/01/91)
In article <5101.281dc791@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> mgjones@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Mike (Felix) Jones) writes: >In article <1991Apr30.174659.9082@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>, rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes: >> Try to act like a professional programmer before you >> act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better >> product and more people will want to pay for it. >Like the Windows comm program that pops up that registration info everytime >you try to do something. I got so sick of it I said bag it and never really >got to try it out to see if I liked it or not. Well, maybe you people should go talk to the folks who won't even look at "crippleware" and advocate reminders. Until the users come to a consensus on which they would rather have, there will continue to be both. Personally, I neither cripple nor put reminders in the shareware I write. And I get no registrations, either. Has anybody else out there had the experience of an unregistered user writing email like "Your stuff is great, I use it all the time. Do you suppose you could add feature X?" And now, since this thread doesn't really belong in cbipd, please note the Followup line... -- James W. Birdsall WORK: jwbirdsa@amc.com {uunet,uw-coco}!amc-gw!jwbirdsa HOME: {uunet,uw-coco}!amc-gw!picarefy!jwbirdsa OTHER: 71261.1731@compuserve.com ========== "Think of an animal that's small and fuzzy." "Mold." -- RM ========= =========== "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin ===========
ts@uwasa.fi (Timo Salmi) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May1.153211.21245@agate.berkeley.edu> c60b-1eq@web-1g.berkeley.edu (Noam Mendelson) writes: : >I know ProComm Plus Test Drive was very annoying until I patched it to >remove all those annoying messages (I ended up buying the commercial >version, BTW). There is an alternative way around such annoying messages that come to the screen as the last deed of an exiting nagware prorgram. That is saving the original screen at call time, and restoring it after the exit. Using a batch file this is very easy. The screen pushing / popping facilities can be found in /pc/ts/tsutld18.arc. But for the record, this is not meant for beating shareware rules, but to get to make the legitimate testing in peace without the nags. ................................................................... Prof. Timo Salmi Moderating at garbo.uwasa.fi anonymous ftp archives 128.214.12.37 School of Business Studies, University of Vaasa, SF-65101, Finland Internet: ts@chyde.uwasa.fi Funet: gado::salmi Bitnet: salmi@finfun
IO92203@MAINE.BITNET (Scott Maxell) (05/03/91)
In article <40790008@hpcvra.cv.hp.com.>, everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Everett Kaser) says: > >/ rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes... >>FLAME ON >>My suggestion to budding shareware programmers is give >>us a MOSTLY fully functional program with no stupid >>order forms, warning boxes, etc. To insure registration >>just reduce the functionallity on a few functions >>(eg. allow it to print only a few pages, limit the >>size of the image, etc.). >>Try to act like a professional programmer before you >>act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better >>product and more people will want to pay for it. >>FLAME OFF > >I agree with your flame (for the most part), but the problem with your >suggestion is that many other people hate IT, calling that type of product >"crippleware". Many people won't try shareware that is not fully functional, as opposed to a fully functional program with an annoying message every time you run it. The messages are there to discourage people from using the shareware past the registration period. If one doesn't have a fully functional product, how can one completely evaluate its usefulness? Why are these types of messages so annoying and indicative of a non-professional programmer? Since you aren't intended to use a shareware program for an extended period of time, why is it such a problem? Shareware programmers put a lot of time and effort into their products. It is their right to determine how they want to make sure people register them. //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ +---------+ Scott Maxell -- Bitnet ->> IO92203 @ maine | | -- Internet ->> IO92203 @ maine.maine.edu | O | | | | "What I need is a computer that will do what I want it to +---------+ do, not what I tell it to do..."
enzerinkp@topaz.ucq.edu.au (05/03/91)
In article <1991Apr30.174659.9082@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>, rubin@visual1.jhuapl.edu (Don Rubin) writes: > FLAME ON > > ...disgusted with so called commercial quality programs > that annoy you to death BEFORE you even get to use them. > ...If I like what the program > does, I'll pay the registration fee to get the full > functionallity, manual, support, updates, etc. I find this to be very hard to swallow, so I'll take the time to followup. It has been my experience, and indeed probably the experience of many shareware authors that very few copies of their programs are ever registered. This is independant of how good they are. For that matter you only need to look at the amount of piracy of normal commercial software to see that a lot of people have no scruples. I personally favour a fully working program that has lots of "register me" boxes and startup delaysto encourage users to register. You have the opportunity to use a fully functional product with some annoying messages. Much better than a crippled program. > Try to act like a professional programmer before you > act like a bean counter and you will end up with a better > product and more people will want to pay for it. > > FLAME OFF A professional programmer is by some definition a person who makes a living from their programming skills. Producing top quality and complete applications with annoying messages seems to be the best way to produce shareware programs, and that's how I'm structuring my future releases. (Maybe this time more people will register!) Regards Peter PS. fffffffff-fff-f-f-f-f Your flame's been blown out. -- Hello, Hello. What's going on here then? ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ Peter Enzerink ENZERINKP@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU University College of Central Queensland