psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) (05/14/91)
The department where I work here at Purdue University is in the midst
of a (small) battle over "getting legal" (software-wise, that is).
In particular, we seem to be at odds over the license for PKZIP for DOS.
It says:
You are free to use, copy and distribute PKZIP for noncommercial us IF:
NO FEE IS CHARGED FOR USE, COPYING OR DISTRIBUTION.
IT IS NOT MODIFIED IN ANY WAY.
The main questions are: Does a University count under "commercial use"?
And, what are the limits on what we can do with it? We would like to
make it a part of a standard PC configuration that gets distributed to
all existing PCs (and placed with new ones, too). This configuration will
"cost" the receiving department, but only our already set rate to do
software installation (ie department charge-back a.k.a. "funny money").
PKZIP would not be used in any specific application, only for personal
use on each PC. Would this sort of thing be in violation of the above
statement?
Oh yea,
please don't flame me for posting this when should have called PKWare.
I'm not supposed to make long distance calls (no kidding), and I'm not
*really* working on this project myself, but I thought I'd ask the net
to see if this is a FAQ or if someone else has already called them.
Thanks!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul F. Smith - ADPC - Purdue University psmith@ecn.purdue.edurschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) (05/14/91)
psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) writes:
SMITH>The department where I work here at Purdue University is in the midst
SMITH>of a (small) battle over "getting legal" (software-wise, that is).
SMITH>In particular, we seem to be at odds over the license for PKZIP for DOS.
SMITH>It says:
SMITH>
SMITH> You are free to use, copy and distribute PKZIP for noncommercial us IF:
SMITH> NO FEE IS CHARGED FOR USE, COPYING OR DISTRIBUTION.
SMITH> IT IS NOT MODIFIED IN ANY WAY.
SMITH>
SMITH>
This is not the only information that Katz includes with PKZIP. He
details that organizations can purchase multi-copy deals at cut rates,
and gives an individual (personal use) rate as well. Now hwy do you
think there is such a rate if you are "free to use" it? The clincher is
in the statement that "If you find this software to be of use" you
politely asked to register it!
Now, just because there is no threat and no distaster will occur if you
don't register, doesn't mean that it is morally (or legally) correct to
continue using the software without registering.
I have seen the above lines reproduced on the net many times as some
person's justification for not paying Mr. Katz his due. While I do not
use his software, I have tried it, foound it to be of no more use than
my own "home-grown", and therefore dropped it. I just don't understand
why people are always looking for someone else to put in hours and hours
of hard work to provide them with something for free!
(Soap box off) :-)
In any case, yes, your school must register to be legal.i
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy Schmidt | #include <disclaimer.h>
Indiana University | /* They are _my_ thoughts, and you can't
Graduate School of Business | have them, so there! */w8sdz@rigel.acs.oakland.edu (Keith Petersen) (05/14/91)
psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) writes: >[...] >The main questions are: Does a University count under "commercial use"? >And, what are the limits on what we can do with it? We would like to >make it a part of a standard PC configuration that gets distributed to >all existing PCs (and placed with new ones, too). This configuration will >"cost" the receiving department, but only our already set rate to do PKWare's email address is: 75300.730@compuserve.com ("PKWARE Inc.") I have forwarded your posting to them. I hope they will include their email address in the doc file of the next release of any of their products. Keith -- Keith Petersen Maintainer of SIMTEL20's MSDOS, MISC and CP/M archives - [192.88.110.20] Internet: w8sdz@WSMR-SIMTEL20.Army.Mil or w8sdz@vela.acs.oakland.edu Uucp: uunet!umich!vela!w8sdz BITNET: w8sdz@OAKLAND
pjh@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) (05/14/91)
In article <1991May13.214634.18373@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) writes: =psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) writes: = =SMITH>The department where I work here at Purdue University is in the midst =SMITH>of a (small) battle over "getting legal" (software-wise, that is). =SMITH>In particular, we seem to be at odds over the license for PKZIP for DOS. = =This is not the only information that Katz includes with PKZIP. He =details that organizations can purchase multi-copy deals at cut rates, =and gives an individual (personal use) rate as well. Now hwy do you =think there is such a rate if you are "free to use" it? The clincher is =in the statement that "If you find this software to be of use" you =politely asked to register it! = =Now, just because there is no threat and no distaster will occur if you =don't register, doesn't mean that it is morally (or legally) correct to =continue using the software without registering. = =In any case, yes, your school must register to be legal.i I think that it has been established (although not tested in the courts) that not paying for or registering shareware is *not* illegal. It may be "cheating" but ... Pete -- Prof. Peter J. Holsberg Mercer County Community College Voice: 609-586-4800 Engineering Technology, Computers and Math UUCP:...!princeton!mccc!pjh 1200 Old Trenton Road, Trenton, NJ 08690 Internet: pjh@mccc.edu Trenton Computer Festival -- 4/??-??/92
psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) (05/15/91)
In article <1991May13.214634.18373@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) writes: >psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) writes: > >SMITH>The department where I work here at Purdue University is in the midst >SMITH>of a (small) battle over "getting legal" (software-wise, that is). >SMITH>In particular, we seem to be at odds over the license for PKZIP for DOS. >SMITH>It says: >SMITH> >SMITH> You are free to use, copy and distribute PKZIP for noncommercial us IF: >SMITH> NO FEE IS CHARGED FOR USE, COPYING OR DISTRIBUTION. >SMITH> IT IS NOT MODIFIED IN ANY WAY. >SMITH> >SMITH> > >This is not the only information that Katz includes with PKZIP. He >details that organizations can purchase multi-copy deals at cut rates, >and gives an individual (personal use) rate as well. Now hwy do you >think there is such a rate if you are "free to use" it? The clincher is >in the statement that "If you find this software to be of use" you >politely asked to register it! > >Now, just because there is no threat and no distaster will occur if you >don't register, doesn't mean that it is morally (or legally) correct to >continue using the software without registering. > >I have seen the above lines reproduced on the net many times as some >person's justification for not paying Mr. Katz his due. While I do not >use his software, I have tried it, foound it to be of no more use than >my own "home-grown", and therefore dropped it. I just don't understand >why people are always looking for someone else to put in hours and hours >of hard work to provide them with something for free! > >(Soap box off) :-) > >In any case, yes, your school must register to be legal.i > >-- >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Roy Schmidt | #include <disclaimer.h> >Indiana University | /* They are _my_ thoughts, and you can't >Graduate School of Business | have them, so there! */ I would just like to say that I agree with Roy's points. I wasn't trying to justify not paying for the software, unless Mr. Katz himself had intended to allow public institutions to use it for free. I couldn't quite tell from his license statments, and many people around here had the same problem. What I really wanted to know was what PKWare had to say about this, not everyone else. Fortunately, I got a message from their CI$ account, which answers my question. Thanks to all for the bandwidth. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul F. Smith - ADPC - Purdue University psmith@ecn.purdue.edu
rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) (05/16/91)
I wrote: >=In any case, yes, your school must register to be legal.i > Pete Holsberg writes: > >I think that it has been established (although not tested in the >courts) that not paying for or registering shareware is *not* illegal. >It may be "cheating" but ... > Let's consider this a moment, Pete. The trial use of software is no different than the trial acceptance of a book. You examine the book, determine its suitability to your needs, and then you either return the book or pay for it at the end of the trial period. It would certainly be illegal to retain the book without paying for it. The shareware idea is the same concept: You obtain a copy of the software and try it. You decide to continue using it. If you do not pay for the continued use, you most certainly are guilty of theft. If this has not been tried in court, it is because of the problem of tracking down the thieves. It is difficult to tell who is or is not using the software. Thus, the shareware system relies on a certain degree of trust. Just because it is difficult to locate perpetrators does not make the theft legal, just hard to enforce. This problem is not unique to shareware. Just think of the huge number of pirated copies of popular commercial software in use. Microsoft will probably confirm that the #1 pirated software package is MS/PC DOS. Can Windows be far behind? And, if it hasn't been tried in court, then it has *not* been established. We spend a lot of time and money in our schools teaching our business students about ethics and law. It just seems sad that there are still so many that would split hairs and feel justified in their act of dishonesty simply because no one will bother to prosecute them. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy Schmidt | #include <disclaimer.h> Indiana University | /* They are _my_ thoughts, and you can't Graduate School of Business | have them, so there! */
lampson@tellabs.com (Dave Lampson) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.161605.27462@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) writes: [...] > >What I really wanted to know was what PKWare had to say about this, not >everyone else. Fortunately, I got a message from their CI$ account, >which answers my question. > >Thanks to all for the bandwidth. Oh, come now! After we've all put up with the unsubstantiated rumor, you're not even going to tell us what they said? (:-) It's like getting to the last page of a story, only to find it missing! Come on, cough it up. Expectantly, Dave lampson@tellabs.com
everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Everett Kaser) (05/16/91)
pjh@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) ... >I think that it has been established (although not tested in the >courts) that not paying for or registering shareware is *not* illegal. >It may be "cheating" but ... > >Pete I realize that there is probably some legal mumbo-jumbo that justifies your use of words, but it seems somehow strange to say in the same breath that something "has been established...[a]s *not* illegal" but "not tested in the courts". *WHO* can establish whether something is illegal or not *BESIDES* the courts? Legislatures can pass laws to make things illegal, but until the courts interpret those laws, the actual illegality of the particular act is not really defined. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so my view of reality is significantly different from that of those who deal with the vageries of the legal system on a daily basis. (Thank God. :-). Everett Kaser Hewlett-Packard Company ...hplabs!hp-pcd!everett work: (503) 750-3569 Corvallis, Oregon everett%hpcvra@hplabs.hp.com home: (503) 928-5259 Albany, Oregon
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (05/16/91)
rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) says: [The University must register to be legal.] Not if they obtained their copy legally. This is almost impossible since Pkware is publically distributed, and is available at numerous sites for anonymous access. They can do what they want with their legally obtained copy. There is no license, because they didn't sign one. Copyright law does not govern how they use it. They don't owe a dime. Sean -- ** Sean Casey <sean@s.ms.uky.edu>
psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) (05/16/91)
In article <6090@tellab5.tellabs.com> lampson@tellabs.com (Dave Lampson) writes: >In article <1991May15.161605.27462@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> psmith@iies.ecn.purdue.edu (Paul F Smith) writes: >[...] >> >>What I really wanted to know was what PKWare had to say about this, not >>everyone else. Fortunately, I got a message from their CI$ account, >>which answers my question. >> >>Thanks to all for the bandwidth. > > >Oh, come now! After we've all put up with the unsubstantiated rumor, you're >not even going to tell us what they said? (:-) It's like getting to the >last page of a story, only to find it missing! > >Come on, cough it up. > >Expectantly, > >Dave >lampson@tellabs.com Oooops! Sorry 'bout that... The answer I got was, well, rather unclear... (IMO) From Doug @ CI$: [his caps] "Universities SHOULD get a license. The PKWARE license now uses the terms PERSONAL and NON-PERSONAL use. I am sure a lot of universities use it without a license. The school I went to did." [my apologies to Doug and PKWare if maybe I shouldn't have reprinted this] To me (or at least our situation) PERSONAL/NON-PERSONAL still doesn't clarify the situation. And the hint that we SHOULD get a license, but that most don't, may be a *wink* we don't mind if "non-profit" groups use it *wink*. Or maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see. :-) I have rephrased my questions and am still talking with him. If anything interesting comes up I'll pass it along. In the mean time: You be the judge. :-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul F. Smith - ADPC - Purdue University psmith@ecn.purdue.edu
pjh@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.183441.23715@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) writes: =I wrote: =>=In any case, yes, your school must register to be legal.i => =Pete Holsberg writes: => =>I think that it has been established (although not tested in the =>courts) that not paying for or registering shareware is *not* illegal. =>It may be "cheating" but ... => = =Let's consider this a moment, Pete. The trial use of software is no =different than the trial acceptance of a book. You examine the book, =determine its suitability to your needs, and then you either return the =book or pay for it at the end of the trial period. It would certainly =be illegal to retain the book without paying for it. I don't agree. If you send for a book on a trial basis, it is clear that if you do not return the book within N days, you will be billed for it. Publishers do not put their books in a storefront where anyone can walk in and take a copy; they use controlled distribution. =The shareware idea is the same concept: You obtain a copy of the =software and try it. You decide to continue using it. If you do not =pay for the continued use, you most certainly are guilty of theft. IYHO! :-) =If =this has not been tried in court, it is because of the problem of tracking =down the thieves. It is difficult to tell who is or is not using the =software. Again, IYHO. IMHO, it is because it has no basis in law. =Thus, the shareware system relies on a certain degree of =trust. Just because it is difficult to locate perpetrators does not =make the theft legal, just hard to enforce. This problem is not unique =to shareware. Just think of the huge number of pirated copies of =popular commercial software in use. Microsoft will probably confirm =that the #1 pirated software package is MS/PC DOS. Can Windows be far =behind? And many publishers of commercial software have begun to prosecute those who have illegally obtained copies of their software! =And, if it hasn't been tried in court, then it has *not* been =established. Either way! =We spend a lot of time and money in our schools teaching our business =students about ethics and law. We do? I seem to recall that there were a bunch of articles in the NY Times a while back decrying the lack of ethics courses in B schools! =It just seems sad that there are still =so many that would split hairs and feel justified in their act of =dishonesty simply because no one will bother to prosecute them. I agree. And then there are shady characters like used-car salesfolks and US advertisers who deliberately mislead potential buyers. There's a commercial I see from time to time featuring the basketball players David Robinson and Charles Barkeley. Robinson asks Barkeley how one "earns" a fine in the NBA and film clips show CB in action. Then DR asks CB if he's ever been fined, and CB says, "No, no, noooooo....!" Then, DR says, "CB is a wonderful basketball player but HE HAS A TERRIBLE MEMORY [emphasis added]." Not that he lied; but he didn't remember. Gee, we had a president like that, too. Incidentally, I pay for shareware that I use regularly. Not because I believe it's illegal not to, but because it feels right. Pete -- Prof. Peter J. Holsberg Mercer County Community College Voice: 609-586-4800 Engineering Technology, Computers and Math UUCP:...!princeton!mccc!pjh 1200 Old Trenton Road, Trenton, NJ 08690 Internet: pjh@mccc.edu Trenton Computer Festival -- 4/??-??/92
pjh@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) (05/17/91)
In article <40790009@hpcvra.cv.hp.com.> everett@hpcvra.cv.hp.com. (Everett Kaser) writes:
=
= pjh@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) ...
=>I think that it has been established (although not tested in the
=>courts) that not paying for or registering shareware is *not* illegal.
=>It may be "cheating" but ...
=>
=>Pete
=
=I realize that there is probably some legal mumbo-jumbo that justifies your
=use of words,
Oh, no -- ny use of words is justified merely by my existence! ;-)
=but it seems somehow strange to say in the same breath that
=something "has been established...[a]s *not* illegal" but "not tested in the
=courts". *WHO* can establish whether something is illegal or not *BESIDES*
=the courts? Legislatures can pass laws to make things illegal, but until the
=courts interpret those laws, the actual illegality of the particular act is
=not really defined.
You're right. I should have said that not paying for shareware has not
been proven to be illegal.
Pete
--
Prof. Peter J. Holsberg Mercer County Community College
Voice: 609-586-4800 Engineering Technology, Computers and Math
UUCP:...!princeton!mccc!pjh 1200 Old Trenton Road, Trenton, NJ 08690
Internet: pjh@mccc.edu Trenton Computer Festival -- 4/??-??/92davel@booboo.SanDiego.NCR.COM (David Lord) (05/17/91)
In article <1991May16.040035.18267@ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) says: > >[The University must register to be legal.] > >Not if they obtained their copy legally. This is almost impossible >since Pkware is publically distributed, and is available at numerous >sites for anonymous access. > >They can do what they want with their legally obtained copy. There is >no license, because they didn't sign one. Copyright law does not >govern how they use it. They don't owe a dime. > >Sean I've seen this argument and it sounds like the same sort of mumbo-jumbo espoused by the people who claim that income taxes are voluntary and that the government has no right to force you to pay them. If you look at what large corporations do (the ones with all the expensive lawyers) you'll find they typically buy site licenses to to many popular shareware programs. Someday the validity of shareware licenses (along with shrinkwrap licenses on commercial software) may be tested in the courts. Unless you want to be the one to pay for that court challenge it's probably best to assume the licenses are enforcable. Not only that but it's in all our interests to encourage the development and distribution of shareware. -- Dave.Lord@SanDiego.NCR.COM
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (05/24/91)
davel@booboo.SanDiego.NCR.COM (David Lord) writes: |I've seen this argument and it sounds like the same sort of mumbo-jumbo |espoused by the people who claim that income taxes are voluntary and that |the government has no right to force you to pay them. Check your ears. It's for real. No signature, no license. Sean -- ** Sean Casey <sean@s.ms.uky.edu>