uh@unido.UUCP (05/18/86)
cramer@kontron / 5:33 am Apr 30, 1986: >Fascinating: A attacks B, B defends himself by attacking A, so >A attacks C, and C blames B. No wonder the computer industry is >located here. There's a logic shortage in Europe. a) No logic shortage: There are some more dependencies than only "A attacks B ...". Here in Europe we FIRST think, and than act. I don't know in which order you do this two things :-). b) I have heard that we have here also some companies, which produce something like calculators (Siemens, Nixdorf, Cadmus). Lates news: IBM has developed and is producing 1 MB chips in Stuttgart. And what about Kontron? Unfortunately I don't know whether or in what way your firm belongs to the German company Kontron in Munich. c) I have heard in Silicon valley are massive layoffs, companies are closed and so on. Even great US computer companies are in great difficulties (Apple, CDC, Fortune, Commodore). Nothing like that in Germany. I think the reason for this is also the logic shortage in Europe. Someone who cannot think, cannot have problems like you :-). uh@unido
uh@unido.UUCP (05/18/86)
sanand@radha / 3:40 am Apr 30, 1986: >I can't let this go. Why the *HELL* do you not "fear" the Libyan terrorists >(et al) as much as you fear the "consequences" of self defense. It's >incredible to see (on TV) the (European) outrage against U.S. actions. >Where is the (visible) outrage when bombs are exploded in crowds of INNOCENT >people ? "Consequences" may be: a local war, a world war III... That are the things I fear. We had very much problems here in Germany with terrorist between 1970 and 1980 (the Baader-Meinhof-Gang (RAF), trained in Syrian and Lybia camps of the PLO). Today: None. Why: 1. We have very strong laws regarding the possession of guns and other arms. Just today I read in a German newspaper some figures about people killed by guns in some countries of the world (1985 ?? I don't know any more): Japan : 77 Sweden : <10 Germany: <100 .... USA : <12000 (in words twelve-thousand) And it's the same attitude of the Wild West, Dirty Harry, Rambo and the right to possess a gun in God's own country, which will drive you into problems in the next few years. Behind this Gaddafi and his terrorists will disappear. More Gaddafi must only wait long enough and he need not kill any US citizen, because they have killed themselves. 2. We have a very good task force (GSG-9), fighting terrorism here in Germany (no, not in Berlin; in this city only USA, Great Britain, France and the USSR may install paramilitary troops like our GSG-9; in this case you should contact your MP or something like that). West-Germany has in West-Berlin only the normal police, nothing more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mkr@mmm / 7:16 am May 1, 1986: > I would like to point out, Uwe, that the Libyan attacks did not >begin with the American raid on Tripoli. In fact, it was an attack in >your very country which triggered the raid to begin with. The idea of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (look above) >the raid, believe it or not, was to *decrease* (in the long run) the >likelihood of terrorist attacks. >"There's nothing wrong with shooting, as long as the right people get shot." > -"Dirty" Harry Callahan ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (look above) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mkr@mmm / 7:43 am May 2, 1986: > This is just plain silly. If Libya were closer to the US, or if >these terrorist actions were happening in the US, we would have attacked >*long* ago, and probably would have rid the world of Qaddaffi very >quickly indeed. Just because Europeans quake and quiver with fear from >a blowhard bully, don't think for a minute that Americans are such wimps. >The only reason we haven't done more against Libya is because we're so >far away that Qaddafi's actions don't affect us enough to *really* piss >us off. > If you don't like getting your people blown up, why don't *you* >do something about it? We do something (look above). >Bah!! Why Bah??? You and we should do something, and you and we have done something, only the ways we go and went were different. The next few years will show which way will be better. If your way goes right and terrorism will stop after your attack of Tripolis, all right; but if your way fails and terrorism will even enhance in the next time please don't blame us. uh@unido
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (05/23/86)
> sanand@radha / 3:40 am Apr 30, 1986: > > >I can't let this go. Why the *HELL* do you not "fear" the Libyan terrorists > >(et al) as much as you fear the "consequences" of self defense. It's > >incredible to see (on TV) the (European) outrage against U.S. actions. > >Where is the (visible) outrage when bombs are exploded in crowds of INNOCENT > >people ? > > "Consequences" may be: a local war, a world war III... That are the things I The Soviets are going to start a war over Libya? Not likely. Syria might be another matter -- but Syria has a mutual defense pact with the Soviet Union -- Libya does not. > fear. We had very much problems here in Germany with terrorist between 1970 and > 1980 (the Baader-Meinhof-Gang (RAF), trained in Syrian and Lybia camps of the > PLO). Today: None. Why: > 1. We have very strong laws regarding the possession of guns and other arms. > Just today I read in a German newspaper some figures about people killed by > guns in some countries of the world (1985 ?? I don't know any more): > > Japan : 77 > Sweden : <10 > Germany: <100 > .... > USA : <12000 (in words twelve-thousand) > 1. Terrorists do not obey gun control laws -- and international terrorists seldom get their guns from within the country. The gun control laws are COMPLETELY irrelevant to the terrorism issue. 2. USA is also a much larger country in total population, so your numbers need to be scaled to the population. 3. You will also find that the murder rate here is higher with knives, blunt instruments, and strangulation than Japan, Sweden, or Germany. The problem is not the presence of guns -- the problem is that the average age of our population is MUCH lower than any country in Europe. Murder is overwhelmingly a crime of young people everywhere. We just have a lot more of them. (Mexico has gun control laws on a par with Germany, even stricter in some ways, yet they have a higher murder rate than the USA. They also have a much younger population.) 4. Finally, what's the murder rate in Switzerland? Lower than in Germany, and every adult male citizen has access to an automatic rifle.) Ditto, Israel -- heavily armed population, and low murder rates. > And it's the same attitude of the Wild West, Dirty Harry, Rambo and the right > to possess a gun in God's own country, which will drive you into problems in > the next few years. Behind this Gaddafi and his terrorists will disappear. More > Gaddafi must only wait long enough and he need not kill any US citizen, because > they have killed themselves. > Crime rates have been declining -- the population has been getting older. > You and we should do something, and you and we have done something, only the > ways we go and went were different. The next few years will show which > way will be better. If your way goes right and terrorism will stop after your > attack of Tripolis, all right; but if your way fails and terrorism will even > enhance in the next time please don't blame us. > > uh@unido No one claims that terrorism will go away -- the goal is to make it expensive for countries that support terrorism. Clayton E. Cramer