alanf@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU (Alan Grant Finlay) (06/20/91)
(This IS the right news group) Programmers and Software suppliers that do not support adhoc and whacky alternative character set systems are not selfish. They are not to blame. There is I believe a new standard being drawn up for international character representation (16bits/character?). We should all try and support this standard when it arrives. This code page stuff is all a bit reminiscent of detecting video card identity (CGA, EGA etc). We are often told that it is sloppy programming to write code which assumes a particular video card. Nonsense! It is sloppy machine and operating system design to have device dependent I/O (and particularly for there to be no standard way to detect which card is attached). Similarly we should have (human) language character set independent I/O. I can understand Icelanders being upset but credit where credit is due. Don't blame programmers for refusing or not knowing how to avoid operating system design flaws. Its not the operating system designers fault either, there was no international standard apart from ASCII (by default) when the IBM-PC was designed. Do educate programmers to do simple things like: "leave the 8th bit alone"; but don't expect them to learn details of arcane operating system fudges. N.B. I do however believe that programs should be supplied in source code form - this would allow the users of the current international code pages etc to modify offending programs.
einari@rhi.hi.is (Einar Indridason) (06/22/91)
In article <4472@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU> alanf@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU (Alan Grant Finlay) writes: > >Programmers and Software suppliers that do not support adhoc and >whacky alternative character set systems are not selfish. >They are not to blame. There is I believe a new standard being >drawn up for international character representation >(16bits/character?). We should all try and support this standard >when it arrives. Adhoc what? The machine in question, the IBM PC/AT or compatables are fitted with extended ascii. The upper half however does differ between countries, but it is there. So why not use it, if it is there? (Without useing tricks like the 'alt-numberic-keypad' trick) I'm waiting eagerly for the Unicode standard. >I can understand Icelanders being upset but credit where >credit is due. Don't blame programmers for refusing or not >knowing how to avoid operating system design flaws. Humm. Aled used the 8th bit as some sort of an internal marker. THEREFORE rendering it Useless for Me and other Icelanders and other Euoropeans.... >Its not the operating system designers fault either, >there was no international standard apart from ASCII (by default) >when the IBM-PC was designed. No, but the extended ascii *was* there. So why bannish the extended ascii? > >Do educate programmers to do simple things like: "leave the 8th bit >alone"; but don't expect them to learn details of arcane operating >system fudges. That should not be necessary for them to learn details of arcane operating system fudges. But I do wish that more would leave the 8th bit alone! > >N.B. I do however believe that programs should be supplied in >source code form - this would allow the users of the current >international code pages etc to modify offending programs. Agree. I think that if ALED would have been in source form, I would have had a try to fix it meself. -- Internet: einari@rhi.hi.is | "Just give me my command line and drag UUCP: ..!mcsun!isgate!rhi!einari | the GUIs to the waste basket!!!!" Surgeon Generals warning: Masking the 8th bit can seriously damage your brain!!
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (06/26/91)
In article <3289@krafla.rhi.hi.is> einari@rhi.hi.is (Einar Indridason) writes: | Humm. Aled used the 8th bit as some sort of an internal marker. THEREFORE | rendering it Useless for Me and other Icelanders and other Euoropeans.... Interesting. The original report complained that he had to use the alt trick to enter characters, implying that Aled preserves the 8th bit nicely, just as the author claimed. Could it be that you're confusing the freemacs editor, which did use the 8th bit as a marker, or just echoing something you heard as if you had tried it? Aled seems to preserve the 8th bit nicely, although my only copy is on a machine which may never rise from the dead, so I can't try it again. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) GE Corp R&D Center, Information Systems Operation, tech support group Moderator comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 386-users digest.
einari@rhi.hi.is (Einar Indridason) (06/27/91)
In article <3474@crdos1.crd.ge.COM> davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.com (bill davidsen) writes: >In article <3289@krafla.rhi.hi.is> einari@rhi.hi.is (Einar Indridason) writes: > >| Humm. Aled used the 8th bit as some sort of an internal marker. THEREFORE >| rendering it Useless for Me and other Icelanders and other Euoropeans.... > > Interesting. The original report complained that he had to use the alt >trick to enter characters, implying that Aled preserves the 8th bit >nicely, just as the author claimed. Ok. Once more: I downloaded Aled. I uudecode and zoo it. I tried entering a sentence that contains our icelandic letters. I got the 7bit ascii ok. I did *not* get the icelandic charcters. I tried entering them with the alt-numberic-keypad trick. That worked. I decided that I did not want to spend my time, entering our icelandic characters with the alt-numberic-keypad trick. So I posted. >had tried it? Aled seems to preserve the 8th bit nicely, although my >only copy is on a machine which may never rise from the dead, so I can't >try it again. So it preserves the 8th bit. So what? It does *not* allow me to enter my icelandic character in the standard way. I have sent email to the author, and since it hasn't bounced (yet) I hope he got it ok. :-) Now. Let us close this discussion and start taking notices of the 8th bit (and sometime in the future, bits 9-16 as well.) -- Internet: einari@rhi.hi.is | "Just give me my command line and drag UUCP: ..!mcsun!isgate!rhi!einari | the GUIs to the waste basket!!!!" Surgeon Generals warning: Masking the 8th bit can seriously damage your brain!!