[comp.fonts] Open Fonts

greid@adobe.com (Glenn Reid) (03/11/89)

[I've added comp.lang.postscript to the Newsgroups line.]

In article <25@crdgw1.crd.ge.com> barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) writes:
>In article <26962@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>>The obvious question is "Why bother? What (other than not giving Adobe
>>royalties) are the advantages of Open Fonts over Adobe's technology?"
>
>Royalty is important. I think the cost for all of the Adobe fonts on a
>CD is several thousand dollars. I don't know what the cost would be per
>workstation. With Display PostScript and NeWS, doing the proper thing
>with PostScript fonts is difficult, from a system manager's view.

Notice that Sun is not supplying fonts, but font technology.  The fonts
will still come from the font vendors, who will be interested in
protecting their outlines and in charging royalties.  I would be a bit
surprised if the font format were not encrypted, and if it isn't, you
might see great hesitation on the part of the font vendors in making
their outlines available, since they can't be protected under current
law.

>If I could get 100 new fonts for my workstation, and use them on
>a LaserWriter and typesetter, and have the same environment for every
>other workstation anywhere, I would be more likely to make use of those
> fonts, instead of limiting myself to Helvetica, Courier, and Times.

I think you're describing Display PostScript :-)

Bear in mind that if you want these fonts to work on a LaserWriter and
typesetter, that they must be in PostScript language form, because they
understand only that.  Which brings up memory-se issues and the
difficulties of producing good PostScript language fonts.  I don't know
whether or not the Sun TypeScaling technology includes the PostScript
language code, or just C code.

I suspect that you will have to build a new ("clone") printer to take
real advantage of this technology on printers.  It will certainly be
valuable in NeWS, however, which is probably why it was developed.

Just thoughts,
Glenn Reid
Adobe Systems

prc@maxim.ERBE.SE (Robert Claeson) (03/13/89)

In article <25@crdgw1.crd.ge.com>, barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) writes:

> I also would like to see more scalable symbol fonts, including electronic
> components, pictures, icons, etc. If we could standardize on these, we
> could perhaps have graphic electronic mail. Usenet with pictures!

And quickly enough, my boss would come rushing to ask me why the phone
bill has increased hundreds of times 8>.
-- 
Robert Claeson, ERBE DATA AB, P.O. Box 77, S-175 22 Jarfalla, Sweden
Tel: +46 (0)758-202 50  Fax: +46 (0)758-197 20
EUnet:   rclaeson@ERBE.SE               uucp:   {uunet,enea}!erbe.se!rclaeson
ARPAnet: rclaeson%ERBE.SE@uunet.UU.NET  BITNET: rclaeson@ERBE.SE

barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) (03/13/89)

In article <622@maxim.ERBE.SE>, prc@maxim (Robert Claeson) writes:
>In article <25@crdgw1.crd.ge.com>, I wrote:
>
>> I also would like to see more scalable symbol fonts, including electronic
>> components, pictures, icons, etc. If we could standardize on these, we
>> could perhaps have graphic electronic mail. Usenet with pictures!
>
>And quickly enough, my boss would come rushing to ask me why the phone
>bill has increased hundreds of times 8>.

Well, I was somewhat facitious. But if you had a font available on
your machine, you could switch fonts with just a few characters, a la
troff or TeX.  People also ship postscript and pic images in USENET articles.

I'll see it in my lifetime, or my name isn't Shirley MacLaine!

Seriously, I think OpenFonts has some other advantages.
One is that the fonts are licensed from the originators, just like the
fonts Adobe uses are licensed. But instead of waiting for Adobe to license
the font and convert it into a proprietary font, others are allowed to
license the fonts, removing a bottleneck.

The press release implies that there will be hundreds of fonts available,
all high quality. Another comment in the press release implies that
the time to create a scalable font is 4-6 weeks (with experience).
Also - this is done from a bitmap or raster image.

I believe this means that there will be more OpenFonts available than there is
for PostScript printers. This also implies (?) that a raster font can be
converted to a scalable font. If these fonts are public domain, then these
fonts can be used without requiring a license.

Also, this gives the user the ability to define a font and then use
charpath. PostScript does not support charpath for user defined fonts,
just those defined in the proprietary format.

Charpath is useful for special clipping outlines and several special effects.

With OpenFonts, you just need one font for all of your raster technology.
You are not limited to one programming language, one platform, or
the Roman alphabet. You can use it with non-PostScript printers.

It also allows NeWS to implement all of the PostScript language without
requiring a License from Adobe.

--
	Bruce G. Barnett 	barnett@ge-crd.ARPA, barnett@steinmetz.ge.com
				uunet!steinmetz!barnett

barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) (03/13/89)

In article <629@adobe.UUCP>, greid@adobe (Glenn Reid) writes:
>[I've added comp.lang.postscript to the Newsgroups line.]

>Notice that Sun is not supplying fonts, but font technology.  The fonts
>will still come from the font vendors, who will be interested in
>protecting their outlines and in charging royalties.  I would be a bit
>surprised if the font format were not encrypted, and if it isn't, you
>might see great hesitation on the part of the font vendors in making
>their outlines available, since they can't be protected under current
>law.

From the press release:

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif.-- March 6, 1989-- Sun Microsystems today reported
it has signed licensing agreements with five of the leading type
vendors in graphic arts and publishing:  Linotype AG, The Monotype
Corporation Plc., H. Berthold AG, ITC and the design studio of Bigelow
& Holmes.  The five vendors will license Sun's just-introduced
OpenFonts(TM) technology, thereby making a wide selection of brand-name
fonts available to developers and end-users in a non-proprietary
intelligent outline description called the F3(TM) format.

[]

The entire Linotype library will be converted to F3, using Sun's
TypeMaker, beginning with several hundred fonts within the year.  It
includes well-known typefaces like Times Roman(R) and Helvetica(R).
Linotype AG has also obtained the right to sublicense Sun's TypeScaler
software to OEMs for inclusion in printer controllers and window
servers.

--------------------
I said:

>>If I could get 100 new fonts for my workstation, and use them on
>>a LaserWriter and typesetter, and have the same environment for every
>>other workstation anywhere, I would be more likely to make use of those
>> fonts, instead of limiting myself to Helvetica, Courier, and Times.
>
>I think you're describing Display PostScript :-)

No, I am describing something much better. PostScript requires me to
get a license from Adobe using an Adobe product (e.g. a PostScript
printer, or Display PostScript).

OpenFonts can be used with any window system and any raster printer.
I can purchase the sources if I want, which is something I cannot do
with PostScript. Please correct me if I am wrong.


>Bear in mind that if you want these fonts to work on a LaserWriter and
>typesetter, that they must be in PostScript language form, because they
>understand only that.  Which brings up memory-se issues and the
>difficulties of producing good PostScript language fonts.  I don't know
>whether or not the Sun TypeScaling technology includes the PostScript
>language code, or just C code.


The package allows you to create a data format usable in any
reasonable computer language.  And is not restricted to PostScript. Or
to the Roman alphabet.

>I suspect that you will have to build a new ("clone") printer to take
>real advantage of this technology on printers.

I do not believe you need a "new" printer to make use of the technology.
Look at the PostScript printer on the NeXT machine. It is a PostScript
printer without the PostScript language.

I don't see why you can't have a LaserJet make use of an OpenFont.

> It will certainly be
>valuable in NeWS, however, which is probably why it was developed.

It was developed for raster devices by Folio. Sun purchased Folio.
I would guess that the original intention was for Laser Printers and
typesetters. Using this sort of technology for displays seems like
overkill. But I can get used to it. :-)

>Just thoughts,
>Glenn Reid
>Adobe Systems

And I appreciate them. Follow-up to comp.fonts.

--
	Bruce G. Barnett 	barnett@ge-crd.ARPA, barnett@steinmetz.ge.com
				uunet!steinmetz!barnett

prc@maxim.ERBE.SE (Robert Claeson) (03/16/89)

In article <29@crdgw1.crd.ge.com>, barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) writes:

> Seriously, I think OpenFonts has some other advantages.
> One is that the fonts are licensed from the originators, just like the
> fonts Adobe uses are licensed. But instead of waiting for Adobe to license
> the font and convert it into a proprietary font, others are allowed to
> license the fonts, removing a bottleneck.

Yes, but one still needs to convert the fonts into, say, PostScript in
order to be able to use them in the favourite printer. And I somehow
doubt that it will be that easy, since, as Glenn Reid noted, the font
manufacturers most probably want to protect their fonts by using some
encryption scheme. Sun will probably be happy to supply us with a
conversion program  (that costs $) in binary form to convert the fonts
into encrypted PostScript or a HP bitmap font or whatever.

Or maybe we will have to wait for the first printer running NeWS?
Now, THAT'd be nice!

-- 
Robert Claeson, ERBE DATA AB, P.O. Box 77, S-175 22 Jarfalla, Sweden
Tel: +46 (0)758-202 50  Fax: +46 (0)758-197 20
EUnet:   rclaeson@ERBE.SE               uucp:   {uunet,enea}!erbe.se!rclaeson
ARPAnet: rclaeson%ERBE.SE@uunet.UU.NET  BITNET: rclaeson@ERBE.SE

barnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) (03/17/89)

In article <628@maxim.ERBE.SE>, prc@maxim (Robert Claeson) writes:

>Yes, but one still needs to convert the fonts into, say, PostScript in
>order to be able to use them in the favourite printer. And I somehow
>doubt that it will be that easy, since, as Glenn Reid noted, the font
>manufacturers most probably want to protect their fonts by using some
>encryption scheme. Sun will probably be happy to supply us with a
>conversion program  (that costs $) in binary form to convert the fonts
>into encrypted PostScript or a HP bitmap font or whatever.

I don't quite know, as I only read the press release posted in
comp.windows.news, but an educated guess might be:

Getting a font in F3 format to print on a PostScript printer is painful.
Downloading bitmap fonts with 300 dpi resolution is like doing a screendump.
Unless some vendor with licenses to both F3 and Adobe makes a translator
that converts the F3 paths and hints into the Adobe format.

I believe the format of the fonts (F3) is public domain.
Folio has most of it's value it their two programs, since they are not
a font company. Making the format well known can only help them.

Sun doesn't sell printers. yet. :-)

One of their pride and joy is the program TypeMaker(TM) which
which automatically creates intelligent outlines.

They claim that a scalable font can be created from a raster image in
6 weeks. This sounds impressive, and also the claim to have "several
hundred fonts within the year".

The other program take the F3 data and produces the font on any
raster device, at any resolution, fonts rotated and scaled any size.


Now let's continue this thought....


	The F3 fonts will be licensed. Some will be standard with
Suns. Others will be extra. I hope the cost per site for a F3 font is
cheap. I don't want to manage font licenses on onesy, twosy rate
when people will have hundreds of workstations per site, with just a few
places containing the entire font set.

	I also hope people will contribute fonts into the public domain.

	GnuFonts!

-----Break in thought---------

The second program, TypeScaler, sounds like a program to be sold.

If you own the program, you can take the F3 fonts and convert them into
a format for your LaserJet printer. Or your PostScript Printer.
Or Imagen. (Now *they* might be interested. You need large bandwidth
for downloading bitmaps...)

I guess the software will be bundled into some window servers.
It would be nice if it were part of SySVR4.   ?

So OpenFont format won't give you a free lunch, until
people develop tools that help contribute to the popularity.
T-Shirts Labeling equipment, F3 terminals, F3 LaserToasters,...

But I just read in the same week that Adobe is also licensing their
font format, allowing Font owners to develop their own encoded fonts
for PostScript printers.

So the competition should make things better for us price-wise. I Hope.

>Or maybe we will have to wait for the first printer running NeWS?
>Now, THAT'd be nice!

Yes, but NeWS have esentially the same imaging model and PostScript.

If every tool had a method of outputing it's display list, instead of
executing it, then NeWS to a postscript printer is simple, automatic, and
efficient.

Let me see... A NeWS printer has these pop-up pages, with mouse
selection of the pages........ :-)

--
Bruce G. Barnett	<barnett@crdgw1.ge.com>  a.k.a. <barnett@[192.35.44.4]>
			uunet!steinmetz!barnett, <barnett@steinmetz.ge.com>