SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) (11/25/90)
In MS Word, when the text font is changed, the entire formatting gets screwed up, especially if some matter is formatted in a tabular form. Is there a way to get around this ? Thanks in advance. subbu
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/25/90)
In article <90328.221839SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: > >In MS Word, when the text font is changed, the entire formatting >gets screwed up, especially if some matter is formatted in a tabular >form. Is there a way to get around this ? > I suspect that subbu's problem comes from using spaces, rather than tabs, to align tabular material. Use tabs. That's why it's called tabular, in fact. Spaces will only print correctly if you're using a monospaced font such as Monaco or Courier, and the VAST majority of fonts on the Mac are proportionally spaced. Things may (or may not) look okay on screen with prop. fonts, but they certainly won't print correctly if you use spaces instead of tabs. -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
jost@alice.coyote.trw.com (Patrick Jost) (11/26/90)
In article <90328.221839SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: > > >In MS Word, when the text font is changed, the entire formatting >gets screwed up, especially if some matter is formatted in a tabular >form. Is there a way to get around this ? > Yes! Don't use Word...use the REAL Mac word processor...Write Now! PJ (not a T/Maker employee!) PS: Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting this... -- | Patrick Jost (PJester) | "The thief of Baghdad hides in Islington now" | jost@coyote.trw.com | -Marillion (Fish)
SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) (11/27/90)
In article <40137@ut-emx.uucp>, clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) says: >I suspect that subbu's problem comes from using spaces, rather than tabs, >to align tabular material. Use tabs. That's why it's called tabular, in >fact. Spaces will only print correctly if you're using a monospaced font >such as Monaco or Courier, and the VAST majority of fonts on the Mac are >proportionally spaced. Things may (or may not) look okay on screen with >prop. fonts, but they certainly won't print correctly if you use spaces >instead of tabs. Kathy, thanks a lot for your response. The problem I had described in my earlier posting was in spite of using tabs. To confirm, I tried out a sample table using TABS and not spaces and then changing the font from Courier to Helvetica (not changing the font size). Here's what I did : I keyed this in (in Courier) : Pricing - Mark-up, Competitive Distribution - One-level, two-level Then, I changed the font to Helvetica, and this is what it looked like in the print-out : Pricing - Mark-up, Competitive Distribution - One-level, two-level Apparently, the problem is due to proportional spacing of the characters. FYI, in line 2 of the table, I used one tab between `Distribution' and the hyphen. In line 1, I had to use two tabs after `Pricing' to have the hyphen in line with that of line 2 (I sure sound confusing !). And then, when the font was changed, the formatting got messed up (By the way, this is MS Word on the IBM PC and not the MAC, if that makes any difference). What surprises me is that though Distribution is a much longer word than Pricing, the hyphen is actually drawn towards the left rather than being pushed to the right. Can you think of a solution to this ? If you have the time, you may want to try out the sample table I used on MS Word to see how the formatting gets messed up, in spite of using tabs. Thanks in advance. subbu
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/27/90)
Subbu, it works like this. You have standard (default) tabs set, say every half inch: | | | | | You type: Distribution(tab) 1000 The tab character takes you to the next tab stop--the next half-inch marker after the end of the word distribution. This is in courier. Now, say you type the same thing in Helvetica, which has narrower letters than Courier. I can't represent it right on this screen (which is monospaced, of course!) except by abbreviating... | | | | Dstrbtn(tab)1000 You see? the word Distribution ends before the tab stop instead of after it, so the tab key will take you to the next tab stop just as it's supposed to, but the "next" tab stop is the 1/2" mark, not the 1" mark as it was in the first example. The way to eliminate this problem is to set tabs specifically for any tabular material (i.e., do not just use the default tabs). I usually do it this way: Type the table, with one tab between each item, no matter how funny it may look. In the following example, > equals a tab key. | | | | | | Apples> 100> 200> 300 Oranges> 200> 400> 600 Kiwi Fruits/Other> 300> 600> 900 THEN, I highlight all the lines in the table, Show Ruler (if it's ot already showing, and set tabs with the mouse such that the three columns are evenly spaced: | | | | Apples> 100 200 300 Oranges> 200> 400> 600 Kiwi Fruits/Other> 300> 600> 900 The columns will move as you drag the tabs onto the ruler, so you have visual feedback. Another hint is alway do Page preView before you print--it will show you a lot of these problems without wasting paper. --Kathy (too lazy to correct typos today) -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
brownd@agnes.acc.stolaf.edu (David H. Brown) (11/27/90)
In article <90330.115832SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: > > I keyed this in (in Courier) : > > Pricing - Mark-up, Competitive > Distribution - One-level, two-level > > > Then, I changed the font to Helvetica, and this is what it looked like > in the print-out : > > Pricing - Mark-up, Competitive > Distribution - One-level, two-level > > subbu Yeah, that's what you get when you rely on default tab stops in almost _any_ word processor. I'd sugegst that you instead switch to defining your own tab stops, exactly where you need them. That way, you'll always be one tab away from the next position rather than one, two, or three depending on the length of word and width of font. Dave Brown (.sig not available; it's music-related anyway, so y'all probably don't really care...)
ariel@seer.UUCP (Catherine Hampton) (11/27/90)
In article <90328.221839SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: > >In MS Word, when the text font is changed, the entire formatting >gets screwed up, especially if some matter is formatted in a tabular >form. Is there a way to get around this ? Which MS Word do you use -- Macintosh, Word for DOS or Word for Windows? This problem can come up on any of them, and the solutions differ depending on which program you're using. Cathy _______________________________________________________________________ Catherine A. Hampton BITNET: hampton@reed.BITNET CIS: 71601,3130 Fidonet: Cathy H. @ 1:125/32 GEnie: C.HAMPTON3 Internet: hampton@reed.EDU RBBSnet: Cathy H. @ 8:814/203 UUCP: ariel@seer.UUCP
nvi@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Charles C. Allen) (11/28/90)
> The tab character takes you to the next tab stop...
I'd just like to point out that this behavior (shared by, at least,
MacWrite II and FullWrite) is incorrect by typesetting standards. The
first tab should take you to the first tab stop, the second to the
second tab stop, etc., not the "next" one if the insertion point is
already beyond that. In that case, the insertion point should not be
advanced at all. FrameMaker handles this correctly.
Charles Allen Internet: cca@physics.purdue.edu
Department of Physics nvi@mace.cc.purdue.edu
Purdue University HEPnet: purdnu::allen, fnal::cca
West Lafayette, IN 47907 talknet: 317/494-9776clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/28/90)
In article <6176@mace.cc.purdue.edu> nvi@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Charles C. Allen) writes: >> The tab character takes you to the next tab stop... > >I'd just like to point out that this behavior (shared by, at least, >MacWrite II and FullWrite) is incorrect by typesetting standards. The >first tab should take you to the first tab stop, the second to the >second tab stop, etc., not the "next" one if the insertion point is >already beyond that. In that case, the insertion point should not be >advanced at all. FrameMaker handles this correctly. --------- Well, Charles, I'd just like to remind you of how many of us use word processing packages, versus how many of us are typesetters. :-) In fact, the "tab key takes you to the next stop" convention dates from the days of manual typewriters, and every word processing package that I know of does it that way. I make no claims one way or the other about the validity of this convention-- just want to point out that about 95% of us would find your convention non-standard. :-) --K -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
preston@lll-crg.llnl.gov (David R Preston) (11/29/90)
In article <90330.115832SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: > > Can you think of a solution to this ? If you have the time, you may want > to try out the sample table I used on MS Word to see how the formatting > gets messed up, in spite of using tabs. Word for Windows has real tables, is this a feature that Word doesn't have? I've heard that the next version of MS Word will have some features borrowed from WfW, but I don't know which ones.... -david preston@lll-crg.llnl.gov B4 f+ t- k+ s-/+ r P8/3 S6 b+/- g- l-/+ y- z/! n o+/++ x a+ u v-- j++ D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
ronaldp@cat46.cs.wisc.edu (Ronald Peterson) (12/01/90)
In article <90330.115832SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: > > >In article <40137@ut-emx.uucp>, clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) says: > >>I suspect that subbu's problem comes from using spaces, rather than tabs, >>to align tabular material. Use tabs. That's why it's called tabular, in >>fact. Spaces will only print correctly if you're using a monospaced font >>such as Monaco or Courier, and the VAST majority of fonts on the Mac are >>proportionally spaced. Things may (or may not) look okay on screen with >>prop. fonts, but they certainly won't print correctly if you use spaces >>instead of tabs. > Subbu's response: > > I keyed this in (in Courier) : > > Pricing - Mark-up, Competitive > Distribution - One-level, two-level > > > Then, I changed the font to Helvetica, and this is what it looked like > in the print-out : > > Pricing - Mark-up, Competitive > Distribution - One-level, two-level > > > Apparently, the problem is due to proportional spacing of the characters. > FYI, in line 2 of the table, I used one tab between `Distribution' and > the hyphen. In line 1, I had to use two tabs after `Pricing' to have the > hyphen in line with that of line 2 (I sure sound confusing !). And then, > when the font was changed, the formatting got messed up (By the way, this > is MS Word on the IBM PC and not the MAC, if that makes any difference). > The tabs should be set in the ruler line, so only one tab would be needed to get to the hyphen. The hyphens would then be lined up. Ron
erichs@microsoft.UUCP (Erich STEHR) (12/05/90)
In article <27509AEF.5276@wilbur.coyote.trw.com> jost@alice.coyote.trw.com (Patrick Jost) writes: >In article <90328.221839SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu> SXS144@psuvm.psu.edu (subramanian sivaramakrishnan) writes: >> >> >>In MS Word, when the text font is changed, the entire formatting >>gets screwed up, especially if some matter is formatted in a tabular >>form. Is there a way to get around this ? > >PS: Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting this... You should have. If you can't help, don't waste bandwidth. I saw this many a time in my 'former life' as a lab consultant. The problem is that you don't know/have forgotten the first rule of word processors: Don't hit return at the end of each line, only at the end of paragraphs. The second rule, which you are also being hit by, is: Don't space to create tables, set up tabs if the processor has nothing better. Text editors, like vi, emacs, etc., only handle lines and they don't handle proportional fonts well. A word processor is designed to handle paragraphs, so it will know where to split the lines and how much space to add between words for justification. Word processors also handle proportional fonts, so you need to use the fixed width tabs that all of them offer, or more advanced features, like Word's tables, to create tables that line up properly under almost any conmbination of fonts. Erich Stehr -- Journeyman Wizard (or at worst, trying to be one).