pollock@usfvax2.EDU (Wayne Pollock) (04/25/88)
Well, this has been a fascinating discussion, but as a future owner of AU/X
(I get my mac II in two weeks or so), Would one of those in the know answer
this question? (ie, how can an AU/X application use a file (say a TEXT file)
created under the Mac OS (i.e., HFS)? How can a Mac OS application access a
file created under AU/X?)
I've heard that a disk can not be used for both AU/X (or is it A/UX? Hmm) and
HFS at the same time (obviously the same disk partition can't be - these are
different file systems); is this true? I really need to know what kind of
hard disk to buy with the Mac II! Do I need to buy two hard disks, one for
AU/X and one for HFS? Are certain brands of hard disks
recommended/discouraged? Whats the bottom line here?
With AU/X, can I use third party 19" color monitors? (I wouldn't want to
buy one such as the PCPC one only to find out AU/X can't access it.)
Finally, are any keyboards recommended/discouraged (I don't think so, but as
long as I'm asking I might as well be thorough)?
Please help me! I need to know real soon (i.e. before I finalize my Mac II
order)! My local dealers try to be helpful, but they are mostly ignorant of
AU/X, disks, monitor compatibility, etc. (no insult intended; they just
haven't been trained in these matters, which I suppose is Apple's fault.)
Wayne Pollock (The MAD Scientist) pollock@usfvax2.usf.edu
Usenet: ...!{ihnp4, cbatt}!codas!usfvax2!pollock
GEnie: W.POLLOCKjackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) (05/05/88)
In article <991@usfvax2.EDU>, pollock@usfvax2.EDU (Wayne Pollock) writes: > How can an AU/X application use a file (say a TEXT file) created under > the Mac OS (i.e., HFS)? How can a Mac OS application access a > file created under AU/X?) The following info is taken from the A/UX Toolbox: Macintosh ROM Interface manual. The A/UX Toolbox makes it possible to manipulate the same text files from both Macintosh applications and standard A/UX programs. The following describes the different conventions the two systems use and explanins how to convert text files when moving between the two. A text file created by a Macintosh application (such as MacWrite) has these attributes: - Lines are terminated by returns (ASCII 0x0D) - The data file is accompanied by a resource file containing the type and creator. The resource file has the same name as the text file, with the extension '.res'. The file type is 'TEXT' and the creator varies with the application. A file created by an A/UX program (such as vi(1)) has these attributes: - Lines are terminated by line feeds (ASCII 0x0A) - The text file has no associated resource file. When a Macintosh application running under A/UX finds no resource file, it assigns the file a type and creator of 'A/UX'. Most Macintosh applications open a file only if they recognize the file type. You can use the tr(1) command to convert the newline characters between the two conventions, and the settc(1) utility to establish or change a file's type and creator. To convert an A/UX text file for use with a Macintosh application, use these tow commands: tr \\012 \\015 < {source-file} > {destination-file} settc TEXT A/UX {destination-file} To convert a Macintosh text file for use with an A/UX program, use this command: tr \\015 \\012 < {source-file} > {destination-file} > I've heard that a disk can not be used for both AU/X (or is it A/UX? Hmm) and > HFS at the same time (obviously the same disk partition can't be - these are > different file systems); is this true? The hard disk that A/UX is currently distributed on contains both Macintosh OS and A/UX partitions. I also have an external 80SC that has a 20MB Macintosh OS partition and a 60MB A/UX partition. I use the 20MB under Macintosh OS and the 60MB under A/UX. > I really need to know what kind of hard disk to buy with the Mac II! Do I > need to buy two hard disks, one for AU/X and one for HFS? Are certain brands > of hard disks recommended/discouraged? Whats the bottom line here? There's about, oh darn I can't remember, about 6 to 9MB of available disk space on the A/UX partition fresh out of the box. The Macintosh partition is about 2MB. So, a second drive wouldn't hurt. Ofcourse, I recommend Apple hard drives. Apple hard drives have been tested throughly under A/UX. I've heard that others have used non-Apple drives with success but the installation process may not be trivial. > With AU/X, can I use third party 19" color monitors? (I wouldn't want to > buy one such as the PCPC one only to find out AU/X can't access it.) Make sure that the monitor has a compatible NuBus video card that allows it to function under A/UX. > Finally, are any keyboards recommended/discouraged (I don't think so, but as > long as I'm asking I might as well be thorough)? I use both the standard and extended keyboards under A/UX (sometimes at the same time! I know, strange). I've also used the DataDesk Mac-101 keyboard and that seems to work just fine under A/UX also. Hope this all helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: I works heres, buts theys don'ts knows I's cans types. :-) Whats I's says iss nots necessarilys whats mys employers says. :-( Hernan 'Jackie' Macapanpan amdahl \ Technical Communications/A/UX Hotline pyramid!sun - apple!jackie Apple Computer, Inc. (408) 996-1010 decwrl / ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (05/06/88)
In article <991@usfvax2.EDU>, pollock@usfvax2.EDU (Wayne Pollock) writes: > How can an AU/X application use a file (say a TEXT file) created under > the Mac OS (i.e., HFS)? How can a Mac OS application access a > file created under AU/X?) jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) wrote: > [a load of bull] The simple answer is that an A/UX program cannot access files on an HFS disk or partition. Ditto, a MacOS program cannot access files on a Unix disk or partition. The more complicated answer is that you can run MacOS programs under A/UX if they follow all the rules. In this case they will access Unix files *as if* they were HFS files; this is what Jackie's "5 pound bag" was about. Apple should really put someone on this newsgroup who can do more than read the [wrong part of the] manuals and quote them to you. (Admittedly, reasonable people have posted, but Jackie's misinformation seems to be the default. Maybe Apple doesn't realize how bad this makes them look on the net?) But there is still no way to access *real* HFS files. In fact, to move a MacOS program into A/UX so you can run it, you have to take down A/UX, format a floppy as "MFS" (the cutesy user interface doesn't call it that, and I forget how you do it. Maybe click on "single sided" or something?), copy it onto the MFS floppy using the Finder, reboot A/UX, and use a little utility called "mfs" to move it to a Unix file! If you have a network (Ethernet, not that slow AppleWalk stuff -- which A/UX doesn't support anyway) then you can run the publicly-available-in- source&binary NCSA Telnet program under the MacOS, and move files to and from HFS disks onto a Unix system on your network. Then boot A/UX and rcp or remote-mount to get the files from the other Unix machine onto your A/UX file system. Wayne again: > I really need to know what kind of hard disk to buy with the Mac II! Do I > need to buy two hard disks, one for AU/X and one for HFS? Are certain brands > of hard disks recommended/discouraged? Whats the bottom line here? Jackie again: > So, a second drive wouldn't hurt. Ofcourse, I recommend Apple hard drives. > Apple hard drives have been tested throughly under A/UX. I've heard that others > have used non-Apple drives with success but the installation process may not > be trivial. The drives that A/UX ships on are Quantum 80MB drives. Apple sells them for $2799 retail. We bought the exact same disk in better packaging for $1400 from Jasmine in San Francisco. Works great -- in fact, the A/UX beta testers were told to buy a Jasmine drive and then ship it to Apple to get A/UX copied onto it. Note the cool 100% markup if you buy it from Apple... We are also running A/UX on a 300MB CDC Wren-4. It works fine but the utilities supplied with A/UX for managing the partition tables are sad at best. It took us a night or two of decoding the doc and trying things before we could copy our A/UX 80MB disk onto the Wren and create a few more partitions to play in. I think this is the "non trivial" part Jackie mentioned. -- John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com "Use the Source, Luke...."
barad@tulane.tulane.edu (Herb Barad) (05/07/88)
In article <4522@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) wrote: >> [a load of bull] >... this is what Jackie's "5 pound bag" >was about. Apple should really put someone on this newsgroup who can >do more than read the [wrong part of the] manuals and quote them to you. >(Admittedly, reasonable people have posted, but Jackie's misinformation >seems to be the default. Maybe Apple doesn't realize how bad this makes >them look on the net?) I also feel the same way. A/UX is new and some things about it are causing mass confusion. I really feel that Apple should put only "expert" people on the net able to concisely and correctly answer the question - those people have been invaluable - Jackie is not! -- Herb Barad Electrical Engineering Dept., Tulane Univ. INTERNET: barad@tulane.edu USENET: barad@tulane.uucp
jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) (05/10/88)
In article <126@tulane.tulane.edu>, barad@tulane.tulane.edu (Herb Barad) writes: > In article <4522@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: > >jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) wrote: > >> [a load of bull] > > >... this is what Jackie's "5 pound bag" > >was about. Apple should really put someone on this newsgroup who can > >do more than read the [wrong part of the] manuals and quote them to you. > >(Admittedly, reasonable people have posted, but Jackie's misinformation > >seems to be the default. Maybe Apple doesn't realize how bad this makes > >them look on the net?) > > I also feel the same way. A/UX is new and some things about it are > causing mass confusion. I really feel that Apple should put only > "expert" people on the net able to concisely and correctly answer > the question - those people have been invaluable - Jackie is not! Hello, Hi, I'm Jackie (the evil twin brother alien UNIX type who doesn't know anything about A/UX :-) ) I need to make sure that all you kind folks out there know that Apple didn't "assign" me to be reading and answering the news. I read the news on my own, cause I like it. I like helping when I can, I'm just a helpful kinda guy I guess. Sorry about the misinterpretation of the file access question. My gosh, I guess I get mixed up too :-). There are applications out there that are accessing files across Macintosh and A/UX operating systems. I don't know how they do it (Oh no!, I don't know! ;-)). Please remember, I always say, "Hope this helps", at the end of my postings and it means just that. I hope the information that I give helps, it doesn't mean that I am the all knowing A/UX guru of time and space :-) ) I also want to thank the many folks who have already sent me letters of thanks and encouragement. (I first read them and didn't know what was going on until I read the news! 8-( ) Thanx. Hope this helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: I works heres, buts theys don'ts knows I's cans types. :-) Whats I's says iss nots necessarilys whats mys employers says. :-( Hernan 'Jackie' Macapanpan amdahl \ Technical Communications/A/UX Hotline pyramid!sun - apple!jackie Apple Computer, Inc. (408) 996-1010 decwrl / ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
phil@Apple.COM (Phil Ronzone) (05/10/88)
In article <4522@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) wrote: >> [a load of bull] Dear net readers: Jackie Macapanpan is answering questions on the net out of his own desire. Jackie is in A/UX Technical Support, and when he is not busy answering questions for people who have paid for technical support and/or are Apple salesmen or dealers, he reads the net, researches questions, generally on his own time etc. SO BE NICE TO HIM!! :-) (Sending Jackie unmarked tens, twenties, and thirties in a plain brown paper bag works very very well). On a more general note, yes, when we released A/UX 1.0, we knew that there were things that UNIX people would bitch (ah - comment on I meant to say) about. No HFS file transfer capability, a very hard to use disk partitioning utility, and so on. Many of the legimate requests for improvements have already been thought of, and we are even working on some of them ( :-) ). After all, if we put everything in release 1.0, we here in the A/UX development group would be out of a job! Last - to be specific, and to see if we have left anything out, what do Y'ALL want in an A/UX <-> HFS transfer utility? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philip K. Ronzone, A/UX Systems Architect APPLELINK: RONZONE1 Apple Computer, Mail Stop 27AJ, 10500 N. DeAnza Blvd. Cupertino, CA 95014 {amdahl,decwrl,sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual,unisoft}!apple!phil
dlw@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (David Williams) (05/11/88)
in:comp.unix.aux / phil@Apple.COM (Phil Ronzone) writes: In article <4522@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) wrote: >> [a load of bull] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nasty, Nasty!! >Dear net readers: >Jackie Macapanpan is answering questions on the net out of his own >desire. Jackie is in A/UX Technical Support, and when he is not busy ^^^^^^ Yeah! Quit picking on Jackie! Apple the corporation may be fair game, but I don't like seeing personal attacks on people who are trying to be helpful... This begins to look like some of those nasty exchanges about X vs NeWs where people start getting vicious. I can certainly sympathize with the frustrations J. Gilmore must be going thru in being on the leading edge of A/UX development; especially when this is the first release of un*x by Apple and things will definitely not be as feature rich, stable and intuitive as they should be. >Last - to be specific, and to see if we have left anything out, what >do Y'ALL want in an A/UX <-> HFS transfer utility? Ok guys Phil asked for it, so why don't you tell him what you want? How about a partition area on disk for this purpose? Or better still why can't it just read and write from a regular mac hard disk/floppy(especially HD) Its not like A/UX development doesn't have access to the sources to do this sort of thing. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Philip K. Ronzone, A/UX Systems Architect APPLELINK: RONZONE1 >Apple Computer, Mail Stop 27AJ, 10500 N. DeAnza Blvd. Cupertino, CA 95014 >{amdahl,decwrl,sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual,unisoft}!apple!phil >---------- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% David L. Williams | Hewlett Packard MS:47LR | S/W Engineer dlw@hpda.HP.COM | 19447 Pruneridge Ave | S/W Development Tech Lab ...!hplabs!hpda!dlw | Cupertino, Ca 95014 | CCE User Interface Project %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (05/11/88)
phil@Apple.COM (Phil Ronzone) wrote: > Last - to be specific, and to see if we have left anything out, what > do Y'ALL want in an A/UX <-> HFS transfer utility? Full compatability. The user should not care whether their data is stored in an HFS or an A/UX format file system, same way they don't care if the data is stored in Berkeley or Sys V file system format. I should be able to have all my HFS hard disk partitions and floppies "mounted" on my A/UX box, exported via NFS, etc. It might as well use the AppleDouble format for Unix access, since Unix utilities for manipulating Mac files are already used to this. In other words, if a Mac program called "foo" was in the system folder called "system", I should be able to see "/mnt/system/foo" and /mnt/system/%foo" when I do "ls" from Unix. The usual way to implement this is with a "MacOS" filesystem type under the vnode switch in the kernel. On the MacOS end, of course, it should look the same: full access to Unix filesystems stored on local SCSI disks, via AppleDouble. Why should a MacOS program be able to access Unix files on remote disks, while not being able to access Unix files on its own local disk? One thing I do not want to see is a "rcp" model of program, where you end up copying the stuff around with funny commands. Another thing I don't want to see is a fancy screen oriented puff piece for doing this kind of stuff. It should be built right in, so it works for all applications -- the sharp pointy clicky kind as well as the command line oriented kind. If you mount a floppy, it should of course flush the buffer and inode caches when the floppy is changed, so you can pop 'em in and out at will. By the way Sun Consulting sells something that does this for MSDOS SCSI disks attached to Suns, and I presume it's in the 386i as well. (You don't get access to local Unix disks from MSDOS, but then again Sun didn't write MSDOS the way Apple wrote the MacOS. Apple has the power to fix this, Sun didn't.) -- John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com "Use the Source, Luke...."
clive@drutx.UUCP (05/11/88)
In article <126@tulane.tulane.edu>, barad@tulane.tulane.edu (Herb Barad) writes: > In article <4522@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: > >jackie@Apple.COM (Hernan'Jackie' Macapanpan) wrote: > >> [a load of bull] Jackie, I'm really sorry you have to face this. It comes up every few months or so, usually from the college student set, with the type of egoism that the word sophomoric is used to express. There is one worse group of social uncultured on the net, though, and these are the Unix grues. They are the ones who act as if they are running a cargo cult, which cargo is the _treasured_information_, which everyone is supposed to value in the same way they do. This is an excuse for the alternative of facing life as a fully realized person. They can be very, very rude, as you have found. I have never been able to understand any reason for the attitude, and wish them well in some day finding a more interesting and happy way to live. You seem a cheerful sort, Jackie, with a different sort of wisdom, and I appreciate that. Please continue to contribute however you see fit. I'm sure many other people really do appreciate it as well. Clive Steward
clive@drutx.UUCP (05/12/88)
From article <9436@apple.Apple.Com>, by phil@Apple.COM (Phil Ronzone): > > After all, if we put everything in release 1.0, we here in the A/UX > development group would be out of a job! > It's a good point... > Last - to be specific, and to see if we have left anything out, what > do Y'ALL want in an A/UX <-> HFS transfer utility? It seems the only reasonable thing is transparency, isn't it? Mac disks should appear as mounted Unix filesystems, and conversely the Unix file system should appear as a mounted Mac filesystem. Then either OS could work with files from the other, since of course the drivers would do such things as newline translation, name.fork notation for non-text files (perhaps it would be easy to follow the macput/get standards), etc.. I hope you'll do something like this, at least! It doesn't sound too hard. A further, much harder step would be application translation for files owned by particular applications, in the spirit of Apple File Exchange. Many would pant for Word to Troff, or at least RTF-Troff translation, for instance. You'd have to get Marketing to decide if the $$ would be worth it. Clive Steward
dorourke@polyslo.UUCP (David M. O'Rourke) (05/13/88)
In article <7820@drutx.ATT.COM> clive@drutx.ATT.COM (Clive Steward) writes: >I'm sure many other people really do appreciate it as well. Count me in as one of those people! David M. O'Rourke +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | dorourke@polyslo | Disclaimer: All opinions in this message are mine, but | | | if you like them they can be yours too. | | | Besides I'm just a student so what do I | | | know! | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | When you have to place a disclaimer in your mail you know it's a sign | | that there are TOO many Lawyer's. | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++