werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (07/31/89)
[ Alexis asks me to post this for him. please respond to him at the address he indicates below. ---Werner ] Date: Mon, 31 Jul 89 02:21:48 EDT From: actnyc!jsb@uunet.UU.NET (The Invisible Man) Message-Id: <8907310621.AA09054@actnyc> To: uunet!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!werner@uunet.UU.NET Subject: please post this for me. newsgroup: comp.unix.aux Subject: No fun at all with Dick & Jane (A/UX 1.1 is hardly perfect...) Ron Flax writes: > You people are all complaining about problems with A/UX 1.0, > all of these things are fixed in 1.1. Furthermore 1.0 was > primarily designed to be a first cut/developer release of > A/UX to get a feel for what people would want in a UNIX > product from Apple. We've listened to the problems and have > made the appropriate changes in 1.1. This is crap. I've defended A/UX in the past, and probably will again in the future. Still, this makes me mad. The "appropriate changes" have *NOT* been made. First of all, HFX apparently fails under certain conditions and can trash your file system. Therefore the authors have imposed some artificial limitations on it. Or so I've read in this group- in fact, I'd be surprised if the fellows who wrote HFX (at starnine) really screwed up so badly, but try and find out anything definitively... Even more important, A/UX still uses the System V File System. This is simply horrible. The reason is that Apple didn't want to take the time to rewrite sash. Understandable, all things considered, but tough- you wanna play, you gotta pay. The real problem is that there's considerable doubt in my mind (and many other people's) that Apple really does want to play. One thing I know for sure is that Apple took a potentially enourmous lead in low-price workstations and flushed it right down the toilet. Not only did they take forever to deliver 1.0, which when it finally did get shipped was running on by-then wimpy hardware, but it took an outrageous time to get 1.1 out the door. And of course the toolbox support, which was supposed to make this Yet- Another-Undistinguished-Unix-Box desireable, still isn't great (we won't mention what it was like in 1.0). > On the subject of getting 1.1, my understanding is that if > you have subscribed to the Update Service, you should have been > updated, otherwise you probably havn't. Everyone who put up with 1.0 deserves a free upgrade. While you're at it, how about a medal? > Please stop complaining about an outdated version of A/UX, > if you have complaints about 1.1 on the other hand we'd like > to hear them. A/UX is a *market driven* product, not an Apple > dictate. Precisely the point. A/UX is about as far from a market-driven product as I've ever seen. (But many other Apple products come close, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of spoiled fish...) Its rough outlines were defined by a market it can never be competitive for, so Apple can sell hardware into a different but connected market where that hardware does have a chance. But you want to hear complaints, so there they are. While I'm at it, why don't you fix the various documented bugs that have been floating around (which make uucp a real problem, for example), bring the port base up to SVR3 (or dare I ask for R4?), support the FFS, provide a reasonable tape product (the 40SC is the most shameful piece of garbage ever to come out of Apple, I think), provide CD-ROM copies, a reasonable manual without requiring purchase of the $600 set, decent support of what little new hardware Apple has started selling since A/UX came out, etc. etc. Am I bitter? Not about A/UX in general. I just bought it, and I knew exactly what I was getting into. I am disgusted with Apple, which has changed places with IBM in the last two years. It's especially appalling when you realize just how many really excellent people work at Apple. They're in the technical areas, though, and the marketing bozos are still running the show. Until technical innovation is again allowed to take center stage at Apple, this sorry state will most likely persist. (To any Apple employees who may be offended by this: If you read the net, you're almost certainly *not* in the class of people I am bitching about.) Alexis Rosen temporarily at uunet!actnyc!jsb -- -----------> PREFERED RETURN-ADDRESS FOLLOWS <-------------- (ARPA) werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Internet: 128.83.144.1) (UUCP) ..!utastro!werner or ..!uunet!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!werner
aem@ibiza.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) (08/01/89)
werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) writes: >But you want to hear complaints, so there they are. While I'm at it, >why don't you fix the various documented bugs that have been floating >around (which make uucp a real problem, for example), bring the port base >up to SVR3 (or dare I ask for R4?), support the FFS, provide a reasonable >tape product (the 40SC is the most shameful piece of garbage ever to come >out of Apple, I think), provide CD-ROM copies, a reasonable manual without >requiring purchase of the $600 set, decent support of what little new >hardware Apple has started selling since A/UX came out, etc. etc. I pretty much agree with the above. Market-driven, eh? We'll see. aem a.e.mossberg - aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu/aem@umiami.BITNET - Pahayokee Bioregion Democracy becomes a government of bullies, tempered by editors. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
steveg@tove.umd.edu (Steve Green) (08/01/89)
>> You people are all complaining about problems with A/UX 1.0, >> all of these things are fixed in 1.1. Furthermore 1.0 was >> primarily designed to be a first cut/developer release of >> A/UX to get a feel for what people would want in a UNIX >> product from Apple. We've listened to the problems and have >> made the appropriate changes in 1.1. > >This is crap. I've defended A/UX in the past, and probably will >again in the future. Still, this makes me mad. The "appropriate >changes" have *NOT* been made. <lots of stuff deleted> >Am I bitter? Not about A/UX in general. I just bought it, and I knew >exactly what I was getting into. I am disgusted with Apple, which has >changed places with IBM in the last two years. It's especially appalling >when you realize just how many really excellent people work at Apple. >They're in the technical areas, though, and the marketing bozos are still >running the show. Until technical innovation is again allowed to take >center stage at Apple, this sorry state will most likely persist. > Let me say that this opinion of apple is becoming more common all of the time. AUX is great for what it is but it is the price that is the problem. It is my guess that Apple does not want a generic UNIX machine. What would be great is a Macintosh/UNIX operating system hybrid. (system 8.0?) As a comp-sci student, AUX is great. In fact, there is nothing else I would rather have. This is not saying that I would not like to see AUX greatly improved. Enough babble... This is what it comes down to... If Apple plans to go with AUX, full commitment, then lets see it! The net is full of people that know. These are the people that buy workstations...listen to what they want. If AUX is an experiment or learning experiance for future OS's, then GIVE THE DARN THING AWAY. AUX should be free! Charge for the docs, support but the software should be free along with updates. Also, a CD with sources and other garbage (man pages,..) would be great. Unfortunatly, you hit it right on the head when you said that the people who read the net are not the people that these messages are directed at. Hey John (skulley), are you out there?? -steveg@tove.umd.edu -- Ignore the message: 'ld warning: file /tmp/kernAAAa06386 has no relocation information' If it appears.
ron@afsg.Apple.COM (Ron Flax) (08/01/89)
In article <18831@mimsy.UUCP> steveg@tove.umd.edu.UUCP (Steve Green) writes: >If AUX is an experiment or learning experiance for future OS's, then GIVE THE >DARN THING AWAY. AUX should be free! Charge for the docs, support but the >software should be free along with updates. >Also, a CD with sources and other garbage (man pages,..) would be great. A/UX is definitly NOT an experiment! It is a product. Unfortunatly we must pay AT&T a royalty for each copy we sell, so we cannot simply give it away... Besides I really don't think the price is that offensive. After all, look at the price of SCO XENIX after you've put all the pieces back together to makeup a real UNIX. And the same goes for other "micro" versions of UNIX look at MicroPort (are they still around?) and Interactive. -- Ron Flax UUCP: ..!uunet!afsg!ron Internet: ron@afsg.apple.com Apple Federal Systems Group, Complex Systems DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed above are mine, and don't necessarily reflect that of my employer.