shaff@Sesame.Stanford.EDU (Mike Shaff) (07/28/89)
ciao, Please excuse the tone of the this letter, but I am slightly displeased with Apple's handling of A/UX. I do admit that I am using STILL using A/UX 1.0, but the handling of the initial release and the update policy seem so bogus that I am unsure as to whether I want continue along this path. I purchased my first Macintosh upon release and have been an Apple developer for the Macintosh since 1984. I listened with glee to a briefing on the yet to be announced Mac II, and the looked forward to the arrival of A/UX. Sigh, where have the boys of summer gone? I remember when Apple was claiming that its mission was to change the world. And how was that to be accomplished? The Design and Implementation of a computer system for "the rest of us." Well, now, here I am, one of the rest of us (I guess) trying to use an Apple product and feeling like I have entered the mutant zone. Why? Apple lied. They issue IM I-V and send out tech reports about the importance of working with A/UX (yeah, yeah, 32 bit clean I know) and produce software the adheres neither the letter nor the spirit of said documents. My story is simple, I often program in Scheme (a dialect of Lisp) and MIT CScheme is a wonderful implementation of said language. So I talked to one of the authors about the difficulty of porting to A/UX; he thought that it would not be too bad "after all it is SVID." He was right with respect to the code once I was told about set42sig everything was trivial, but the code was not to be the problem. CScheme, like most full blown implementations of Lisp is large, so how does one get files to A/UX? By floppy, of course, why would I want to use the Apple tape drive that I purchased just for A/UX? No pain, no gain! From the Mac OS side Tape Backup 40SC does not allow the backup nor restoration of files with respect to A/UX, and from the A/UX side Tape Backup 40SC core dumps. We all know that A/UX was released with support of the 400k Disc (thank you Apple I knew you would never drop mfs support), I personally wondered why HFS was introduced with all of the storage capacity of a 400k disc available! sash! It has support for 'cp', it can 'see' Mac OS, and A/UX! echo $PATH (mac):bin:|/sa/bin/ ls (mac):bin: can't find (mac):bin: ls '(mac)':bin: ls '(mac):bin:' ls '(internal_hd):bin:' ;Where "internal_hd" is a drive name etc I know look at the manual where it describes the pathname conventions for use within sash. Hmmm, I know that it is here... (2,0,0):bin: ??? Do you remember the original Adventure??? To some up my illustration of JUST ONE NIGHT OF PLEASURE (there have been others, but I want to save those stories for nights my children won't go to bed), I pushed across, via floppy, release 6.2.2 of MIT CScheme (approx 2 Mb), the latest release (beta 7.0) is approx. 6 Mb. and I have not decided whether I will make the effort. I could push the files across due to the presence of compress (creates .Z files) and split, Mac OS programs that are greater than 400k seem to be impossible. I have tried Stuff It, etc no luck. I used to believe that Apple was different, better. Now, I wonder whether "the rest of us" referred to the suckers that are born every minute. (peace chance) mas --
earleh@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Earle R. Horton) (07/29/89)
In article <10936@polya.Stanford.EDU> shaff@Sesame.Stanford.EDU (Mike Shaff) writes: ... >To some up my illustration of JUST ONE NIGHT OF PLEASURE (there have >been others, but I want to save those stories for nights my children >won't go to bed), I pushed across, via floppy, release 6.2.2 of MIT >CScheme (approx 2 Mb)... Why don't you use the serial port? A/UX comes with Kermit. It is a relatively simple matter to tell Kermit to listen to the modem port, then put it in "server" mode. If you are uploading programs from a Mac to A/UX, then MacKermit will "send all files in the current folder" if you tell it to, and your A/UX Kermit in server mode will be happy to receive them. I once sent a 2 Mb file over a 2400 baud modem line. I don't know how long it took, nor do I care, because I took off for a real night of pleasure once the transfer started... >I used to believe that Apple was different, better. Now, I wonder >whether "the rest of us" referred to the suckers that are born every >minute. This is an interesting theory. Anybody at Apple know whether this is what it means? Earle R. Horton
ken@capone.gatech.edu (Ken Seefried iii) (07/29/89)
In article <14726@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> earleh@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Earle R. Horton) writes: >In article <10936@polya.Stanford.EDU> shaff@Sesame.Stanford.EDU > (Mike Shaff) writes: >... >>To some up my illustration of JUST ONE NIGHT OF PLEASURE (there have >>been others, but I want to save those stories for nights my children >>won't go to bed), I pushed across, via floppy, release 6.2.2 of MIT >>CScheme (approx 2 Mb)... > > Why don't you use the serial port? A/UX comes with Kermit. > Oh, well....of course Earle...'kermit' makes up just fine for the lack of an adequate backup system for A/UX. I just LOVE backing up 300MB of hard disk with 'kermit'. And moving the X distribution to A/UX with 'kermit'...why, thats only 45MB at 2400 baud...why would ANYONE want to use a tape drive for that... > > I once sent a 2 Mb file over a 2400 baud modem line. I don't >know how long it took, nor do I care, because I took off for a real >night of pleasure once the transfer started... > You sent 2MB once? Some of us move 2MB files around most every day. And we DO care how long it takes. I can see it now: walk in to work at 9am and tell the boss "Gee, boss...I'm going to take a few hours of pleasure 'cause I have to transfer a file to my A/UX machine..." Yea, right... At least we can ethernet them to machines with a real backup capability... ken seefried iii ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, harpo, hplabs, ken@gatech.edu masscomp, rlgvax, sb1, uf-cgrl, unmvax, ut-ngp, ut-sally}!gatech!ken
rmtodd@servalan.uucp (Richard Todd) (07/30/89)
In article <10936@polya.Stanford.EDU> shaff@Sesame.Stanford.EDU (Mike Shaff) writes: >Please excuse the tone of the this letter, but I am slightly displeased with >Apple's handling of A/UX. I do admit that I am using STILL using A/UX 1.0, but >the handling of the initial release and the update policy seem so bogus that I >am unsure as to whether I want continue along this path. I purchased my first Well, the fact that you have A/UX 1.0 is part of the problem. While I understand your frustration, having done a good bit of floppy shuffling myself until my 1.1 upgrade arrived, I frankly think you're overreacting a bit. I certainly don't expect a first release of *any* product to be free of flaws. At least the netinet code mostly works, which is more than can be said of any other Unix machine on the OU campus.... >40SC core dumps. We all know that A/UX was released with support of the 400k >Disc (thank you Apple I knew you would never drop mfs support), I personally >wondered why HFS was introduced with all of the storage capacity of a 400k disc >available! sash! It has support for 'cp', it can 'see' Mac OS, and A/UX! I thought of that,too. Alas, sash apparently can't see the MacOS partition except for loading in the standalone versions of the utilities. >will make the effort. I could push the files across due to the presence of >compress (creates .Z files) and split, Mac OS programs that are greater than >400k seem to be impossible. I have tried Stuff It, etc no luck. Look more closely at StuffIt. You'll see one of the options is "Segment", and another is "Join". You can split MacOS files into 400K chunks, take them across, then run UnStuffit under A/UX to put them back together. Trust me it works, even though it is a godawful kludge. Presumably you got all this software off of some Unix box to begin with; why didn't you just do a straight uucp transfer to your home machine and let it go overnight? At 2400bps you can move 6Meg in about 8 hours. Under A/UX 1.1 they provide "hfx", which does read HFS floppies and the MacOS partitions of the hard disks, transferring files like this is no problem. >I used to believe that Apple was different, better. Now, I wonder whether "the Apple's just like any other computer company. They sell hardware and software. Some of it stinks and some of it doesn't. Here lately, more of it has been in the "doesn't" category. I'm just glad that with A/UX, Apple has finally started selling computers with real operating systems. -- Richard Todd rmtodd@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu rmtodd@chinet.chi.il.us rmtodd@servalan.uucp Motorola Skates On Intel's Head!
ron@afsg.Apple.COM (Ron Flax) (07/30/89)
You people are all complaining about problems with A/UX 1.0,
all of these things are fixed in 1.1. Furthermore 1.0 was
primarily designed to be a first cut/developer release of
A/UX to get a feel for what people would want in a UNIX
product from Apple. We've listened to the problems and have
made the appropriate changes in 1.1.
On the subject of getting 1.1, my understanding is that if
you have subscribed to the Update Service, you should have been
updated, otherwise you probably havn't.
Please stop complaining about an outdated version of A/UX,
if you have complaints about 1.1 on the other hand we'd like
to hear them. A/UX is a *market driven* product, not an Apple
dictate.
Ron Flax
Internet: ron@afsg.apple.com
UUCP: ..!{apple,uunet}!afsg!ron
Apple Federal Systems Group, Complex Systems
DISCLAIMER: The above thoughts are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer.time@oxtrap.oxtrap.UUCP (Tim Endres) (07/31/89)
In article <282@afsg.Apple.COM> ron@afsg.Apple.COM (Ron Flax) writes:
You people are all complaining about problems with A/UX 1.0,
all of these things are fixed in 1.1. Furthermore 1.0 was
primarily designed to be a first cut/developer release of
A/UX to get a feel for what people would want in a UNIX
product from Apple. We've listened to the problems and have
made the appropriate changes in 1.1.
On the subject of getting 1.1, my understanding is that if
you have subscribed to the Update Service, you should have been
updated, otherwise you probably havn't.
I must agree. I had 1.0, and while I had trouble getting my upgrade
(late), I must say that 1.1 was worth the wait!
I must also praise Apple for the packaging of the 1.1 update. Most
companies would force me to buy their very undesirable tape drive to
do the upgrade, but Apple managed to provide me with a floppy
solution. One, in fact, that is simple, and well packaged. And,
although I had to call someone at Apple to sort out the delay, I
received my update UPS in two days! Thank you, Doug Radcliffe.
Further, with release 1.1, I am doing development for a large system
that runs across Sequent Symmetry, Sun, Dec3100, workstations on a
network distributed across New York and Chicago. The combination of
System V shared memory and semaphore models with BSD sockets allows me
to completely develop this system at home on my Mac!
And, to top it off, I can run MacDrawII, HyperCard, Word 4.0 (I hope),
and many others, while my massive makes go on in the background!
Apple, could you please provide us with a terminal DA?!?!?!?!
I am desperate to start background work while I am in HyperCard!
I have tried many hacks, but I can't pull it off.
Again, Thanks Apple. I never thought you'd give me Unix. I never
thought it would be so well integrated. For a product that is
certainly not your bread and butter, you've done a lot!ron@motmpl.UUCP (Ron Widell) (08/01/89)
In article <1989Jul30.031813.751@servalan.uucp> rmtodd@servalan.UUCP (Richard Todd) writes: [re. tape/floppy backup on A/UX 1.0] > Presumably you got all this software off of some Unix box to begin with; >why didn't you just do a straight uucp transfer to your home machine and >let it go overnight? At 2400bps you can move 6Meg in about 8 hours. A word of caution here- A/UX is SysV derived and thus has the ulimit parameter. I don't remember what it is by default (and my docs. are not at home) on A/UX, but on most SysV machines it's 2048 blocks = 1 Mbyte. It's rather unpleasant to have a large file transfer abort after 1 Mbyte because of this limit. In any case you'll still want to compress prior to the transfer. >in the "doesn't" category. I'm just glad that with A/UX, Apple has finally >started selling computers with real operating systems. -----AMEN----- >-- >Richard Todd rmtodd@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu rmtodd@chinet.chi.il.us > rmtodd@servalan.uucp >Motorola Skates On Intel's Head! -- Ron Widell, Field Applications Eng. |UUCP: {...}mcdchg!motmpl!ron Motorola Semiconductor Products, Inc., |Voice:(612)941-6800 9600 W. 76th St., Suite G | I'm from Silicon Tundra, Eden Prairie, Mn. 55344 -3718 | what could I know?
kaufman@polya.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (08/01/89)
In article <282@afsg.Apple.COM> ron@afsg.apple.com (Ron Flax) writes: >You people are all complaining about problems with A/UX 1.0, >all of these things are fixed in 1.1. Furthermore 1.0 was ^^^ <emphasis his> >primarily designed to be a first cut/developer release of >A/UX to get a feel for what people would want in a UNIX >product from Apple. We've listened to the problems and have >made the appropriate changes in 1.1. No, you haven't. I can still trash the console screen by starting a MacOS application from a serial port. I still can NOT run a second screen. I still can NOT do IO to fast tapes, or write physio blocks larger than 8K... I still can't interface to an AppleTalk network with any Apple-sold peripherals. Where is the rest of the Toolbox -- starting with emulation of the swap-mmu-mode trap, 32 Bit color support, etc. >On the subject of getting 1.1, my understanding is that if >you have subscribed to the Update Service, you should have been >updated, otherwise you probably havn't. That's not quite true, either. I ordered the 1.1 upgrade (single kit) and the 1.1 Manual upgrade at the same time -- 2/28/89. I still have not received any new manuals. The money was paid, however. >Please stop complaining about an outdated version of A/UX, >if you have complaints about 1.1 on the other hand we'd like >to hear them. A/UX is a *market driven* product, not an Apple >dictate. "market driven"??! What market. Certainly not the group that has already purchased the product. It must be those other folks who have yet to buy... >Ron Flax >DISCLAIMER: The above thoughts are my own and do not necessarily reflect > those of my employer. That's too bad. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@polya.stanford.edu)
michael@xanadu.COM (Michael McClary) (08/01/89)
In article <282@afsg.apple.com> ron@afsg.apple.com (Ron Flax) writes: >You people are all complaining about problems with A/UX 1.0, >all of these things are fixed in 1.1. Furthermore 1.0 was >primarily designed to be a first cut/developer release of >A/UX to get a feel for what people would want in a UNIX >product from Apple. We've listened to the problems and have >made the appropriate changes in 1.1. Yep. Ours arrived less than a week ago. Thank you for your prompt attention. B-)
amanda@intercon.uu.net (Amanda Walker) (08/01/89)
Hmm, the temperature seems to be rising in here :-). I think everyone has some valid points, but we all have aggressively different points of view. Historically, Apple has not been prepared to bring a product like A/UX to market, and I am still a little skeptical of their ability to do so. Now, I think that there are a lot of people within Apple that are doing their darnedest to improve this situation. People like Ron Flax and the Federal Systems Group, Kirsten Nelson, and so on. Likewise, the engineering team has done some incredible things. I think we can all agree that A/UX 1.1 is a significant improvement over 1.0. There are, however, two major problems that may end up making A/UX a footnote in Apple's history (which I think would be a great shame): - Design goals. Apple does not build "workstations." Period. You can use a Mac II running A/UX as a "workstation," but it will be very annoying to do so. Whether or not Apple "should" make a workstation beside the point, in my opinion. Apple has steadfastly held to the idea that a computer is a strictly *personal* resource, local disks and all, which is both good and bad. It makes it fairly nice to put on a professional's desk. It also makes it a pretty poor academic workstation. Personally, I think that any attempts to convince Apple management to make a traditional workstation are a waste of time. To be blunt, since it doesn't fit into the Apple way of thinking about how computers are used, Apple simply doesn't care about it, however big the market may be (no offense, Ron...). I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, partially because I think that the Age Of The Workstation is drawing to a close, but that is another story... - Politics. I am afraid that internal Apple politics will kill A/UX long before external market pressure. They seem to be off to a depressingly good start at both the engineering and marketing levels. If anyone at Apple has evidence to the contrary, I for one would love to hear it. -- Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation -- amanda@intercon.uu.net | ...!uunet!intercon!amanda
paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell) (08/01/89)
In article <1320@motmpl.UUCP> ron@motmpl.UUCP (Ron Widell) writes: >A word of caution here- A/UX is SysV derived and thus has the ulimit >parameter. I don't remember what it is by default (and my docs. are not at >home) on A/UX, but on most SysV machines it's 2048 blocks = 1 Mbyte. It's >rather unpleasant to have a large file transfer abort after 1 Mbyte because >of this limit. In any case you'll still want to compress prior to the >transfer. In A/UX you can use kconfig to change the base ulimit (set CDLIMIT) value and hence save yourself having to worry about the problem Paul -- Paul Campbell UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul AppleLink: D3213 "Free Market": n. (colloq.) a primitive fertility goddess worshipped by an obscure cult in the late 20th C. It's chief priest 'Dow Jones' was eventually lynched by an enraged populace during an economic downturn (early 21st C).
rmtodd@servalan.uucp (Richard Todd) (08/02/89)
In article <1320@motmpl.UUCP> ron@motmpl.UUCP (Ron Widell) writes: >A word of caution here- A/UX is SysV derived and thus has the ulimit >parameter. I don't remember what it is by default (and my docs. are not at >home) on A/UX, but on most SysV machines it's 2048 blocks = 1 Mbyte. It's Hmm, hadn't thought of that. Fortunately the default ulimit is 16 Meg on A/UX, not 1 Meg. And if that's not big enough for you, just change the kernel param. CDLIMIT with kconfig and up it to anything you want, up to 0x7fffffff. You don't have to bother with all the nasty kludges used on other SysV systems to get around the stock stupid 1M limit. So you can now go home and do your 15Meg downloads in comfort. -- Richard Todd rmtodd@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu rmtodd@chinet.chi.il.us rmtodd@servalan.uucp MMDF is a four letter word.