ranjit@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Ranjit Bhatnagar) (12/02/88)
Thanks to everyone who told me how to get information about the
Workbench screen. Now that I have the screen, I want to talk
to Workbench itself: is there a way to inform Workbench that
I have created a new icon, and Please Display it Now? Having
the user close the window and re-open it is sleazy and not
worthy of a real user-interface.
(Commentary: I wish Workbench weren't so icky, because if it
were better done, more people would support iconic interfaces
to their programs, and there are plenty of times that a visual
interface is simply better and faster. Not to say that the
CLI doesn't have its place, but the Amiga has evolved to strongly
favor the CLI over the Workbench for anyone beyond the utter
novice, which is too bad. This ties in with my previous article:
there is absolutely no way to install arexx, arp, or even
the 1.3 command set using only the workbench.)
- ranjit
"Trespassers w" ranjit@eniac.seas.upenn.edu mailrus!eecae!netnews!eniac!...
-- I'm not a drug enforcement agent, but I play one for TV --phil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) (12/03/88)
In article <6458@netnews.upenn.edu> ranjit@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Ranjit Bhatnagar) writes: >(Commentary: I wish Workbench weren't so icky, because if it >were better done, more people would support iconic interfaces >to their programs, and there are plenty of times that a visual >interface is simply better and faster. What about workbench do you perceive as being "icky"? I think the user interface is fine. Some programs that open windows on the workbench screen are better than others, however. Workbench is a bit limited, and could stand to have a few extra features (like an "applications" menu that I can tailor to my own whims---much like Browser's "Tools" menu). Now the programmer interface is a different matter.....That can get "icky" pretty fast. >This ties in with my previous article: >there is absolutely no way to install arexx, arp, or even >the 1.3 command set using only the workbench.) In most cases, this problem can be solved rather easily by the manufacturer. Create a CLI script that does the installation (and another to do a de-installation if desired) and use "iconx" (since it is now officially part of the environment) to enable a Workbench user to do the installation. You *may* need several different scripts (or perhaps tooltype options) for hard disk configurations, but probably not. And even under 1.2 this script would be helpful: just tell the user to open a cli and type "execute disk:script". The script could even be interactive, if that was needed! You're right, tho: utility software packages should have easy (i.e.: Workbench oriented) ways to install and possibly de-install themselves. Automatically upgrading a Workbench disk from 1.2 to 1.3 seems like it would be a little harder, however. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu>
daveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Berezowski) (12/03/88)
In article <6458@netnews.upenn.edu> ranjit@eniac.seas.upenn.edu.UUCP (Ranjit Bhatnagar) writes: >Thanks to everyone who told me how to get information about the >Workbench screen. Now that I have the screen, I want to talk >to Workbench itself: is there a way to inform Workbench that >I have created a new icon, and Please Display it Now? Having >the user close the window and re-open it is sleazy and not >worthy of a real user-interface. > >(Commentary: I wish Workbench weren't so icky, because if it >were better done, more people would support iconic interfaces >to their programs, and there are plenty of times that a visual >interface is simply better and faster. Not to say that the >CLI doesn't have its place, but the Amiga has evolved to strongly >favor the CLI over the Workbench for anyone beyond the utter >novice, which is too bad. This ties in with my previous article: >there is absolutely no way to install arexx, arp, or even >the 1.3 command set using only the workbench.) > Workbench is currently being given quite a facelift. The things you mentioned above will be possible under V1.4; unfortunately you'll have to wait til then. Sorry :^( David
bjc@pollux.UUCP (Betty J. Clay) (12/03/88)
> >What about workbench do you perceive as being "icky"? I think the user >interface is fine. Some programs that open windows on the workbench >screen are better than others, however. Workbench is a bit limited, and >could stand to have a few extra features (like an "applications" menu that >I can tailor to my own whims---much like Browser's "Tools" menu). Now the >would be a little harder, however. > > William LeFebvre There was a program on a Fish disk about two releases ago - probably in the 130s - called HandyIcons. It provides for the addition of an extra menu on the workbench for tools, and lets you store the path to those tools as well. An extremely nice program. But it does have a problem. It will not work with both 1.3 KS and 1.3WB installed. Requires 1.2. Too bad. Betty =========================================================================== Betty Clay, .......killer!pollux!bjc SYSOP/CompuServe AmigaForum CIS: 76702,337 ===========================================================================
mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (12/05/88)
daveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Berezowski) writes: > Workbench is currently being given quite a facelift. The things > you mentioned above will be possible under V1.4; unfortunately you'll > have to wait til then. Sorry :^( > > David Not a problem...I'll wait. This has to be the best thing I've seen on the net this month. I'm glad to hear that the software folk (DOGS) have listened to the griping about Workbench that has gone on since Day 1 and are addressing those concerns. --M -- Michael Portuesi / Information Technology Center / Carnegie Mellon University INET: mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu / BITNET: mp1u+%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb UUCP: ...harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mp1u+ "my friends say she's a dumb blonde, but they don't know she dyes her hair"
tlm@pur-phy (Timothy Lee Meisenheimer) (12/06/88)
In article <4XaVmTy00Vsf4D0Hli@andrew.cmu.edu> mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >daveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Berezowski) writes: > Workbench is currently being given quite a facelift. The things > you mentioned above will be possible under V1.4; unfortunately you'll > have to wait til then. Sorry :^( > > David Could I make a suggestion pertaining to this facelift? Would it be possible to toggle between two modes: the first mode being the windows and pretty icons that we all know about and a second mode which is more like that of browser? This way there would be a way to manipulate files without them all having icons. Instead of making it just like browser, make the window wide enough for a single column of files/directories. If you click on a directory a second window (like the first - single column and scrollable) would open to the right etc. This is similar to how I've seen it done on several unix-type windowing systems(the NeXT comes to mind) and it looks versatile. One could also imagine clicking a third mode (or just a sub-mode of the second mode :-)) that would show the size, protection bits, etc. instead of just the file name. I really do like the icons but I think a file oriented mode would be very usefull. (I don't know who to credit for the current workbench but we all know who to credit for browser!) tlm@newton.physics.purdue.edu
darin@laic.UUCP (Darin Johnson) (12/06/88)
In article <13239@pollux.UUCP> bjc@pollux.UUCP () writes: >There was a program on a Fish disk about two releases ago - probably in the >130s - called HandyIcons. It provides for the addition of an extra menu >on the workbench for tools..... >It will not >work with both 1.3 KS and 1.3WB installed. Requires 1.2. Too bad. Well, I can't get it out before Christmas... But I was working on a program just like this, with a few extras (most importantly, source). My idea is to have user definable menus be definable in a text file, support WorkBench (Workbench, workBench?) and CLI programs, both with arguments, and some built-in commands (mainly so I don't have to run gobs of utilities) such as window iconify, diskchange, etc. Of course, since I program for fun, it takes awhile to finish anything. Of course, Workbench 1.4 will have this (just a rumor :-). -- Darin Johnson (leadsv!laic!darin@pyramid.pyramid.com) "It's true, the world's not perfect... But we've submitted an SPR"
MJB@cup.portal.com (Martin J Brown-Jr) (12/07/88)
As long as we're talking about WB facelifting here something I would like to
see:
I was looking around the system with xoper and noticed that there was a
workbench window as well as screen. I assume it is one of those always in the
background windows. Maybe this could have a special gadget to bring it to the
front (still no sizing adjustment) to do disk icon stuff. The problem I have
is that I'll have a bunch of windows for multiple programs set "just so", and
then need to use a disk icon. WHAM! there goes my setup. I'd like to be able
to click a gadget in the WB title bar, bringing the wb window to front, do
the icon business and send to wb window back with its normal status. Of course
, this brings up the problem of opening up a window from a disk icon, it would
have to open up behind the brought to front wb window, maybe. Possibly, this
wb window brought to front would just be a copy of the real wb window, and the
icon commands would be relayed to the real thing.
I've kind of muddled through this explanation, but I think, hope, you
understand it. I want/need to get to those icons without wrecking the posi-
itioning of my windows.
- MJB -wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) (12/08/88)
As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: * Keyboard shortcuts for the menus What an IDEA!! And soooo hard to implement. * Get rid of snapshot. * Select an area of icons a la Macintosh. William B. Norris IV
cjp@antique.UUCP (Charles Poirier) (12/09/88)
In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: > ... > * Get rid of snapshot. Make snapshot save the whole window setup including all the icons in the window by default. I have an icons directory on my HD containing nothing but 40 or 50 icons. Multiple select doesn't hack it here. -- Charles Poirier (decvax,ucbvax,mcnc,attmail)!vax135!cjp "Docking complete... Docking complete... Docking complete..."
daveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Berezowski) (12/09/88)
In article <1696@pur-phy> tlm@newton.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Timothy Lee Meisenheimer) writes: >In article <4XaVmTy00Vsf4D0Hli@andrew.cmu.edu> mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >>daveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Berezowski) writes: >> Workbench is currently being given quite a facelift. The things >> you mentioned above will be possible under V1.4; unfortunately you'll >> have to wait til then. Sorry :^( >> >> David > >Could I make a suggestion pertaining to this facelift? Would it be possible >to toggle between two modes: the first mode being the windows and pretty >icons that we all know about and a second mode which is more like that of >browser? This way there would be a way to manipulate files without them all >having icons. Instead of making it just like browser, make the window wide >enough for a single column of files/directories. If you click on a directory >a second window (like the first - single column and scrollable) would open to >the right etc. This is similar to how I've seen it done on several unix-type >windowing systems(the NeXT comes to mind) and it looks versatile. One could >also imagine clicking a third mode (or just a sub-mode of the second mode :-)) >that would show the size, protection bits, etc. instead of just the file name. > >I really do like the icons but I think a file oriented mode would be very >usefull. > >(I don't know who to credit for the current workbench but we all know who to >credit for browser!) > Workbench 1.0 thru 1.3 was written/upgraded by Neil Katin who now works for Sun. There have been a lot of requests for different ways of viewing infomation under Workbench. Let me say that we will try and accomodate those requests given the time/resource contraints we all have to live with. ie. While I'm not in a position to tell you exactly what is going to be in Workbench V1.4, I hope you won't be dissapointed. Bottom line is: 'people have made comments in the past, we are trying to address them'. That's all I can say right now. Regards, David
ralph@mit-atrp.UUCP (Ralph L. Vinciguerra) (12/09/88)
In the interest of making the workbench useful for all functions
(so that even normal users of the machine can get things done) I have
done several things:
(1) I created a "visible" workbench disk. I essentially created and attached
an icon to every file and directory on the workbench.
(2) I created a set of workbench tools which let you manipulate icons
fairly easily. Their names are:
- FloatIcon - (makes an icon have no "snapshotted location")
- CopyIconImage - Yep, one icon to many icons. This if my favorite !
- CopyDefTool - Copies the default tool from one icon to many icons.
- BecomeTool - Yep.
- BecomeProject - You bet.
After a little more testing, I'll send them to comp.{binaries,sources}.amiga
if folks are interested. My current hurdle is that you are forced to
close the workbench window containing the altered icons to get the
changed represented. Any ideas net-folks ?
(3) I wrote a little ARexx program, with an icon, which reads a directory
and attaches an icon to all files which have none. Then using the above
tools I can fix things.
Although all these steps are somewhat painful, they do make it possible
for a person to use an amiga and even do system management type stuff
and not use a CLI. Gee, what a concept ! :-).
I'm hoping, praying, begging, that CBM's newer workbench will support
some more advance functionality.
My next project: The info workbench function doesn't even show the DATE
of the file it gives info on. Come on guys !
I'll just have to write another little workbench tool I guess....
P.S.: If all this is being addressed in the next workbench, let me know!cg@myrias.UUCP (Chris Gray) (12/09/88)
In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: > * Keyboard shortcuts for the menus > What an IDEA!! And soooo hard to implement. > * Get rid of snapshot. > * Select an area of icons a la Macintosh. > William B. Norris IV DON'T get rid of snapshot! I use it to arrange things so that the windows come out where I want them. When you have a bunch of stuff on a hard disk, this can be quite useful, else you end up with a big mishmash of windows scattered all over the place. I don't regularly use the WorkBench, but when I do, I prefer it to be tidy. For deeply nested drawers, I tend to make all of the contained ones open up just inside the top-left corner of the containing one. I also rearrange and resize them for minimum size. -- Chris Gray Myrias Research, Edmonton +1 403 428 1616 {uunet!mnetor,ubc-vision,watmath,vax135}!alberta!myrias!cg
daveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Berezowski) (12/10/88)
In article <2451@antique.UUCP> vax135!cjp (Charles Poirier) writes: >In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >>As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: >> ... >> * Get rid of snapshot. > >Make snapshot save the whole window setup including all the icons in the >window by default. I have an icons directory on my HD containing nothing but >40 or 50 icons. Multiple select doesn't hack it here. > Hmmmm, 'Select All' would solve your problem here, wouldn't it? :^) David
mikhe@butterix.liu.se (Mike Henry) (12/10/88)
Here are my two cents (for anybody who wants to hear them B^)...
I think CBM are doing a great job giving us update on the progress of
WB 1.4 and hope they (you) will continue in the future, I do have some
suggestions though...
* Why not incorporate some of Workbench's configuration (variables)
in preferences and as ENV: variables. We could then decide for
ouselves the alignment of our icons, how wide we want our
scrollbars and so on. (OK, so I peeked at suntools... B^)
* There are hooks in the window/newwindow structure that could be used
to pop the menus up anywhere on the screen, please implement them!!
* Multiselect function: hold down LMB, drag mouse and a "box" opens up,
release LMB and ZAP all icons within "box" are selected. (Hope it's
not an Ap*le copyright B^)
* Implement user definable menu items that could be parsed at the click
of an icon or at the execution of a CLI command, they could be
implemented as ENV: variables y'know. (How about ENV:wbmenus/emacs
containing the string "c:run sys:system/emacs"?)
* Variable font size windows. In some windows (for example some output
windows) it would be preferable to have a tiny font, while at some
times it would be nice to be able to have a window with a LARGE
font (some people NEED a large font to be able to read whats on
screen at all, this is no joke).
Well it seem that I might be contributing more than just two cents but these
are the things that spring into my mind as write this. If CBM doesn't have
time to implement everything that we want ourselves, organize a contest
and BLESS the best Workbench/CLI command/Device/etc. You could still keep
the copyright to the entries (and modify on them... B^). I believe it would
be cheaper for everybody this way (and much more exciting... B^).
Again CBM, I think you are doing a great job at providing info and really
listening to what us small folk think, here on the net. Keep up the good
work!!!
-Mike
--
INET : mikhe@majestix.liu.se ///
UUCP : {mcvax,munnari,ukc,unido}!enea!liuida!majestix!mikhe ///
ARPA : mikhe%majestix.{ida.liu.se,UUCP}@seismo.CSS.GOV \\\/// What
SNAIL: Mike Henry, Alsattersg. 3C:20, S-582 51 Linkoping SWEDEN \XX/ Else??page@swan.ulowell.edu (Bob Page) (12/10/88)
Let's move this discussion to comp.sys.amiga ok? ..Bob -- Bob Page, U of Lowell CS Dept. page@swan.ulowell.edu ulowell!page Have five nice days.
dillon@CLOUD9.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (12/10/88)
:> * Keyboard shortcuts for the menus
:> What an IDEA!! And soooo hard to implement.
:> * Get rid of snapshot.
:> * Select an area of icons a la Macintosh.
:> William B. Norris IV
:
:DON'T get rid of snapshot! I use it to arrange things so that the windows
:come out where I want them. When you have a bunch of stuff on a hard disk,
:this can be quite useful, else you end up with a big mishmash of windows
:scattered all over the place. I don't regularly use the WorkBench, but when
:I do, I prefer it to be tidy. For deeply nested drawers, I tend to make
:all of the contained ones open up just inside the top-left corner of the
:containing one. I also rearrange and resize them for minimum size.
:
:--
:Chris Gray Myrias Research, Edmonton +1 403 428 1616
: {uunet!mnetor,ubc-vision,watmath,vax135}!alberta!myrias!cg
I would like to see this:
-Get rid of .info files completely. This is why I don't use the
WB now.
-Use the comment field to store information like window placement,
icon placement, icon name, application, etc...
-Automatically update the comment field whenever somebody moves
or resizes a window, or moves an icon etc... (snapshot would
thus not be needed).
-Periodically check the timestamp on directories whos windows are
open to see if they have been modified (and rescan if so).
-Matt
Big example: For example, I have a directory full of .C files.
(C language). I *don't* want a thousand .icon files floating around for
them. Sometimes I want to edit them, sometimes I want to compile them,
and currently you cannot really do that with the workbench without having
another window open holding the editor or compiler icon because double
clicking the .C file gives you just one function.
What is all of this getting to? Hard Disks. This is an optimum
algorithm for the leading edge of Amiga's, with HD's and running FFS.
Where scanning a directory is quick, and there is NO need to load extanious
files (all those .icon's) when half the directory entries reference the
same icon.
-Mattjms@antares.UUCP (joe smith) (12/10/88)
In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: > * Get rid of snapshot. > William B. Norris IV I hope you were referring to using the snapshot option to force an icon's position. As others have mentioned, you want to keep the ability to modify and remember the size and position of the window that opens when a disk or drawer icon is double clicked. A reason for not having icon positions is that Workbench will automatically arrange them in the window where they line up and don't overlap. The disadvantage of doing this is that no icons show up until the last one is read in. All icons with explicit positions show up in the window as they are found, but the positionless ones cannot be drawn until after all of the fixed position icons have been drawn. You don't want to completely eliminate icon positions, because sometimes it is desirable to have icons arranged in a particular order. For instance, the icons on the Express Paint disk line up to make a choo-choo train (cute!). What I would like to see is an "unsnapshot" option in the Workbench menu that makes the selected icon(s) free-floating. (I want it in the menu, not as a seperate program.) I want to be able to tell Workbench to memorize the window size/position using a menu item that is distinct from the item that snapshot's the disk/drawer icon position. (The current method is ambiguous, especially if the icon got unselected when you clicked inside the window.) And an option for window's .info that says that this window does not honor fixed position icons. The latter bit means that it is OK for Workbench to draw all icons as they are found, including the ones with no position. The end result is that Workbench users could choose whether they want manually positioned icons or to let Workbench position them automatically. Getting rid of "snapshot" would eliminate that choice, which is not good. Somebody from CBM mentioned that they are working on making Workbench multitasking in 1.4. Considerring how the system slows down when mulitple tasks read directories (due to contraproductive seeks), I would rather have a pre-emptive Workbench. That is, if you click on a drawer icon while Workbench is still looking for the rest of the .info files, it should stop what it is doing, remember where it was, and process the new window. It should not resume processing the first window until it is completely finished doing disk accesses for the latest window. Holding off on the first window is something I think is mandatory if we want reasonable response from floppies. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | TYMNET:JMS@F29 CA:"POPJ P," UUCP:{ames|pyramid}oliveb!tymix!antares!jms | | INTERNET:(Real Soon Now) Amiga Hacker PHONE:Joe Smith @ (408)922-6220 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) (12/10/88)
In article <686@myrias.UUCP> cg@myrias.UUCP (Chris Gray) writes: >In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >>As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: >> * Keyboard shortcuts for the menus >> What an IDEA!! And soooo hard to implement. >> * Get rid of snapshot. >> * Select an area of icons a la Macintosh. > >DON'T get rid of snapshot! I use it to arrange things so that the windows >come out where I want them. When you have a bunch of stuff on a hard disk, >this can be quite useful, else you end up with a big mishmash of windows >scattered all over the place. I don't regularly use the WorkBench, but when >I do, I prefer it to be tidy. For deeply nested drawers, I tend to make >all of the contained ones open up just inside the top-left corner of the >containing one. I also rearrange and resize them for minimum size. I also like to rearrange my icons and windows. What I don't like, however, is having to select all these things (ESPECIALLY WITHOUT A SELECT ALL) and then do a snapshot. It would be nice if Workbench would automatically update this stuff. Also, how about standard system gadgets for ZOOM? Something like in excellence! William B. Norris IV
aleks@well.UUCP (Brian J. Witt) (12/12/88)
Several people have commented.. > >I also like to rearrange my icons and windows. What I don't like, however, >is having to select all these things (ESPECIALLY WITHOUT A SELECT ALL) >and then do a snapshot. It would be nice if Workbench would automatically >update this stuff. > >Also, how about standard system gadgets for ZOOM? >Something like in excellence! > > > William B. Norris IV What if... a menu was attached to the window, ala LightSpeed "C" and SunTools (or is it really X, not sure). The menu might have -- zoom -- select all -- list by TEXT/multi-column text/Icons -- move to shared screen -- zoom in/out <-- great for tall (morerows) workbenches And there could be the standard open/close/resize/shift somewhat off screen mode selectors if you wanted. Boy, wuld this confuse some people :-) What if... DOS (RAM, floppy, hard, recoverable) Disk drives hd a packet type of "Return to me when a file is closed in this directory that this file handle refers to". Then WB wouldjust have a bunch of outstanding packets tat would be replied to when the directory was updated. Then maybe the layers library could have a similar message (no polling of layers) when a layer requires refreshing. Now, about this GURU # 07000004... 8-) Just some thoughts... --- I bought my Amiga for the multi-tasking, --- but the salesperson sez it does graphics, too! --- brian
john13@garfield.MUN.EDU (John Russell) (12/12/88)
>In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >>As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: >> * Keyboard shortcuts for the menus >> What an IDEA!! And soooo hard to implement. This is already possible using Add from Fish Disk #73. Curiously, Workbench is the _only_ thing it has ever seemed to cause problems with (although I can't be sure, there were just nebulous problems once in a blue moon when keyboard shortcuts were part of its menus). Maybe it has something to do with trapping the 5-finger salute? A super-safe and flexible/interactive version of Add is something that I might do if I _ever_ get some free time to program. (Geez, when I wrote it I didn't even know about Forbid()!). Methinks that would make a nice addition to the 'standard' set of UI tools. I still see plenty of menu-based programs which have shortcuts for options I use maybe once a week (or even never use), but none for basic operations like Open or Save. Does anyone ever do testing to determine which operations are used the most often and base their shortcut items on that? One program that addresses the problem well is VT100, where you are able to specify the keyboard shortcuts in the init file. Early versions of VT100 without this feature were in fact what prompted Add in the first place. John -- "The sinuous roots meshed together... the sun-dappled leaves... the arching branches... and put it all together? Nothing! Icky, icky tree!" -- something like that anyway; from "The Kids in the Hall"
ericb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Eric Black) (12/13/88)
In article <686@myrias.UUCP> cg@myrias.UUCP (Chris Gray) writes: >In article <1606@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >>As long as we're talking about WB facelifting: >> * Keyboard shortcuts for the menus >> What an IDEA!! And soooo hard to implement. >> * Get rid of snapshot. >> * Select an area of icons a la Macintosh. >> William B. Norris IV > >DON'T get rid of snapshot! I use it to arrange things so that the windows >come out where I want them. When you have a bunch of stuff on a hard disk, >this can be quite useful, else you end up with a big mishmash of windows >scattered all over the place. Not only that, but there seems to be an increasing tendency for applications to use big (I mean really big, huge even) icons. One example: Excellence!. The WorkBench default locating of icons if there is no location set on the .info file doesn't seem to handle these very well at all. I get lots of overlapping icons. I'd love for this to be handled correctly ("correctly" == `don't overlap either icon imagery or name`); otherwise, I have to laboriously move icons around, then snapshot them all. Since the WorkBench location algorithm doesn't seem to do the job, a "cleanup" jumbles things up again. If this is fixed, then I'll go along with punting "snapshot". One alternative might be to always snapshot, sort of like the M*c seems to do: if I move it, leave it where I put it; otherwise, put it someplace appropriate. If I have moved some things and not others, things get hairy, though... BTW, I almost never (well, once or twice a year, usually for giving demos) use WorkBench myself, but my wife does. I prefer typing exactly what I mean, especially given ConMan (thanks, Bill!!) and a nice shell (each of Matt's and Bill's shells have nice points), but then again I'm a UNIX life form, and not someone who uses a computer only to get a job done (like typing papers, memos, letters to parents, drawing pictures for Kindergarten dittos to color, etc.). -- Eric Black "Garbage in, Gospel out" Atherton Technology, 1333 Bordeaux Dr., Sunnyvale, CA, 94089 UUCP: {sun,decwrl,hpda,pyramid}!athertn!ericb Domainist: ericb@Atherton.COM