richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) (03/25/89)
A couple of things I've noticed that could have a dramatic
impact on computers i ngeneral and 680x0 based systems in
specific.
1) DAT decks.
How many of you have hard disks on your Amiga ?
Hmm, a fair number. Ok, put your hands down now.
Now, how many of you have tape drives as well, as
a back up device ?
Not that many, eh ?
I recently read an article in a magazine that made the
point that DAT decks are on the verge of replacing
CD's and vinyl for consumer audio. They also made
the point that volume of scale is going to
make these things pretty cheap in a couple of
years, and that a home/audio deck could also
be shared as a harddisk backup device.
2) Math chips
From _EDN February 16, 1989, page 21_ Weitek has announced
the Abacus 3168 numeric coprocessor. When teamed with a
25 Mhz '030 it gives 6M Whetstones and 1.5M Flops Linpack
(Double Precision). It seems to be a multiply/divide square
root unit, only, so you would still need a 68881 for
transcendental functions. Also it's unclear whether it's
a 64 or 80 bit device so if any precision would be lost
is uncertain.
Two things ARE clear though: 1) it's FAST, and 2) we'd
better start making noises to support this thing compiler
/library wise so it's ready when the chip is available.
It's supposed to sell for $500 (in lots of 2500) for
a 25 Mhz 121 pin package sometime around April.
Wait a minute THIS April ? Wowsers... too late.
Does anuybodyhave any idead how fast this thing is compared
to 68881/2 ?
--
The bonds of truth are not made to measure
decwrl!gryphon!panchax!richard richard@panchax.gryphon.COMbader+@andrew.cmu.edu (Miles Bader) (03/27/89)
richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: > I recently read an article in a magazine that made the > point that DAT decks are on the verge of replacing > CD's and vinyl for consumer audio. I hope you took this article with several large boulders of salt... -Miles
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (03/28/89)
In article <2017.AA2017@panchax> richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes:
)
)A couple of things I've noticed that could have a dramatic
)impact on computers i ngeneral and 680x0 based systems in
)specific.
)
)1) DAT decks.
) I recently read an article in a magazine that made the
) point that DAT decks are on the verge of replacing
) CD's and vinyl for consumer audio. They also made
) the point that volume of scale is going to
) make these things pretty cheap in a couple of
) years, and that a home/audio deck could also
) be shared as a harddisk backup device.
I worked on a project using RDAT's as PC backups. There are two big "if's."
1) Will the RDAT really catch on? Not real clear, since even where they're legal
they haven't jumped off the shelves, it seems. If they don't happen RSN,
they might get skipped over for imminent recordable optical techology.
They DO hold a lot more info than a CD, though, and are probably easier
to use in a car.
2) Can you make a decent backup using consumer components?
One nice thing you would expect out an integrated music/data solution would
be a nice audio digitizer at no extra cost ;^)
The RDAT is a nice thing, though. There's a button on the Sony which means
"Skip this song, and never play it again." Also, the seek operation is
viciously fast, for tape. Quite suitable for audio needs, in my opinion.
Not as nice as having a big optical archive disk on your computer, though.
)2) Math chips
) Two things ARE clear though: 1) it's FAST, and 2) we'd
) better start making noises to support this thing compiler
) /library wise so it's ready when the chip is available.
) It's supposed to sell for $500 (in lots of 2500) for
) a 25 Mhz 121 pin package sometime around April.
) Wait a minute THIS April ? Wowsers... too late.
The ieee libraries should be able to make use of any reasonable chip, even
if it doesn't drop in as a coprocessor.
jimm
--
Jim Mackraz, I and I Computing "Like you said when we crawled down
{cbmvax,well,oliveb}!amiga!jimm from the trees: We're in transition."
- Gang of Four
Opinions are my own. Comments are not to be taken as Commodore official policy.richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (03/28/89)
In article <wY=G4xy00UkaILBNQJ@andrew.cmu.edu> bader+@andrew.cmu.edu (Miles Bader) writes: >richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: >> I recently read an article in a magazine that made the >> point that DAT decks are on the verge of replacing >> CD's and vinyl for consumer audio. > >I hope you took this article with several large boulders of salt... No. I can see how technology may take a while to reach a backwater town like Pittsburg, but here in Los Angeles, 60% of the songs on the radio station I listen to are on DAT, and the first DAT only store selling players and tapes has already opened. I don't mean it's gonna replace vinyl and cd's in six months, but I expect that withinn two years very significant inroads will have been made. -- Keep out of the reach of children richard@gryphon.COM decwrl!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.NASA.GOV
Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com (03/28/89)
> ... DAT decks are on the verge of replacing CD's
Were you referring to it as a backup storage system? Why wait for DATs???
Most people already have VCRs. VCRs hold OOOdles of computer data on nice
reliable 1/2" tapes. The IBM world already has boards to interface their
computers with VCRs. And DATs have been scuttled by nervous North American
manufacturers who are afraid they will be used for piracy. Judging by the
computer software market, they're right. In many people's minds, DAT is
dead. Is anyone working on VCR-Amiga interfaces for archiving???? Juliefc@lexicon.com (Frank Cunningham) (03/28/89)
R-DAT: speaking as a mostly contented professional user of R-DAT for audio, I would say it is extreme unlikely that it will replace CD's. It may penetrate more than it has, but with the ridiculous cost of pre-recorded music (not *software* please) and the dubious life of the ksets vs non-invasive optical reading .... but when will the DAT backup SCSI drives become available ??? -- Frank C
fc@lexicon.com (Frank Cunningham) (03/28/89)
R-DAT on the radio. I assume those tapes they are playing are copies they made themselves for their own kornvenience, since commercial releases, in backwater Boston anyway, are non-existent. Good thing for them that ol' copy-code never got through... -- Frank C
king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (03/29/89)
In article <2017.AA2017@panchax> richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: > >1) DAT decks. Excellent idea Richard. DAT decks have just started appearing in the pro music stores here (at least at Saved By Technology in Toronto), but they didn't have any tapes for sale. Sony will sell tapes to people for professional purposes only, but you need a company letterhead to order. In other words, don't hold your breath. But what about 8mm video? This format should also be amenable to HD backup, and can store video or (literally) hours and hours of PCM audio (24 hours I think) on a single tape. Note that this audio is very nearly (inaudible difference) as good as DAT or CDs. BTW. Flame on you Richard for not answering my mail. /* posted from amiga42 - The Answer */ -- {utzoo|mnetor}!dciem!zorac!dretor!king | king%dretor@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca
yuan@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Yuan 'Hacker' Chang) (03/29/89)
In article <16339@cup.portal.com> Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes:
-> ... DAT decks are on the verge of replacing CD's
-
-Were you referring to it as a backup storage system? Why wait for DATs???
-Most people already have VCRs. VCRs hold OOOdles of computer data on nice
-reliable 1/2" tapes. The IBM world already has boards to interface their
-computers with VCRs. And DATs have been scuttled by nervous North American
-manufacturers who are afraid they will be used for piracy. Judging by the
-computer software market, they're right. In many people's minds, DAT is
-dead. Is anyone working on VCR-Amiga interfaces for archiving???? Julie
VCR holds oodles of data: True. 1/2" tapes are pretty reliable:
True. Problem is that VCRs is an analog device. Data has to be converted
to analog, and converted back when read. High-end DATs will have digital
interface, so you can record straight data without going through the analog
process. DAT has a smaller form factor, so the recorder will be smaller.
With all these advantages, I think DATs will catch on quickly as backup
devices for PCs and workstations.
As for the "piracy" issue, I'm sure it's been beaten to death
already. Basically, the broadcast and movie industries thought the same of
VCRs.
--
Yuan Chang "What can go wrong, did"
UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!ucsd!nosc!uhccux!yuan
ARPA: uhccux!yuan@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to
INTERNET: yuan@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?"ejkst@cisunx.UUCP (Eric J. Kennedy) (03/29/89)
In article <13830@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >I can see how technology may take a while to reach a backwater town >like Pittsburg, but here in Los Angeles, 60% of the songs on the ^^^^^^^^^ Dammit, if you're gonna insult us, at least spell it right! Pittsburgh. burgh. GH. Get it? Pittsburgh. -- Eric Kennedy ejkst@cisunx.UUCP
ejkst@cisunx.UUCP (Eric J. Kennedy) (03/29/89)
In article <396@lexicon.com> fc@lexicon.com (Frank Cunningham) writes: >but when will the DAT backup SCSI drives become available ??? It may be time to find a new newsgroup for this thread, but... What are the differences between DAT and the currently available tape backup systems? They're both tape, and they're both digital, but I'm sure it goes beyond that. -- Eric Kennedy ejkst@cisunx.UUCP
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (03/30/89)
in article <3700@amiga.UUCP>, jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) says: > Keywords: 680x0's and computers in general > )2) Math chips > ) Two things ARE clear though: 1) it's FAST, and 2) we'd > ) better start making noises to support this thing compiler > ) /library wise so it's ready when the chip is available. > The ieee libraries should be able to make use of any reasonable chip, even > if it doesn't drop in as a coprocessor. This is true. However, the ieee libraries may slow the thing way down, to the point where you'd be better off running a 68881 or 68882. For instance, some of these quick math chips do adds in 3 clocks, multiplies in 5, at any precision (register to register of course). It's likely that a well written IEEE library for such a beasty could do more complex math operations perhaps faster than a Motorola FPU, but simple add and multiply instructions could lose big going via library. Two things could help this situation (1) Compilers that know about killer math chips. Obviously, we aren't likely to see the likes of this at least until there's a standard killer math chip. In 80386-system land, a version of the Weitek Abacus killer math chip is rapidly becoming a secondary standard; perhaps such a standard in Amiga-system land would help this along. (2) Math libraries with higher level functions. If we had access to math libraries that support real high level functions, like matrix math, the price of a call to such a library function might get so small as compared to the length of the function, that we'd really get to see a performance boost closely tracking the FPU in place. This could even support vectorizing FPUs or multiple FPUs acting in concert. > Jim Mackraz, I and I Computing "Like you said when we crawled down > {cbmvax,well,oliveb}!amiga!jimm from the trees: We're in transition." > - Gang of Four -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy Amiga -- It's not just a job, it's an obsession
warren@wucs1.wustl.edu (Warren Burnett) (03/31/89)
In article <1606@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: >In article <2017.AA2017@panchax> richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: >> >>1) DAT decks. >................. >In other words, don't hold your breath. But what about 8mm video? This >format should also be amenable to HD backup, and .......... Here at the Wash U. Engineering School, we are using an 8mm Exabyte drive to back up our mini's (uVaxen and Sun's). We use standard Sony 8mm 90 minute video cassettes and get about 2.3 Gbytes on each tape. The drive is pretty fast, faster than our 9-track. It is on the SCSI port on one of our Sun 4/280's; I don't see any reason it couldn't be used on the SCSI port of an Amiga (with a suitable cable, of course). It is also pretty reliable; using the error rate given in their documentation (I don't remember the exact figure) we calculated that if you use 2 tapes per week, you could go 63 years and encounter only a single bit error. As I recal, the drive was pretty expensive, somewhere in the neighborhood of $5000 to $7000. This is probably overkill for an Amiga system costing only a couple of thousnad dollars, but if you are looking for a way to spend some money and have ALOT of data to back up, this might be what you are looking for. Warren Burnett warren@wucs1.wustl.edu
thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) (04/01/89)
In article <2017.AA2017@panchax> richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: >2) Math chips > From _EDN February 16, 1989, page 21_ Weitek has announced > the Abacus 3168 numeric coprocessor. When teamed with a > 25 Mhz '030 it gives 6M Whetstones and 1.5M Flops Linpack > (Double Precision). It seems to be a multiply/divide square > root unit, only, so you would still need a 68881 for > transcendental functions. Somewhat impressive, but why settle for less. The Intel 80860 (N-10) will absolutely blow the doors off the Weitek part and just about anything else. It is a 64 bit RISC processor with an internal FPU capable of 80 MFLOPS or 120 MOPS (millions of operations per second). Intel claims that peak performance could push 105K drystones, 26M whetstones, and 21 MFLOPS for double precision LinPac. There is also builtin 3D graphics support allowing 500,000 3D transforms per second with clipping and perspective. The graphics support also incudes Z buffer compare for hidden surface removal and pixel interpolation allowing it to generate 21 million Gouraud shaded pixels per second. Caching on chip is provided by separate 4K instruction and 8K data caches. Initial release will be in the 33MHz and 40MHz speeds but 50MHz is in development. The parts are currently sampling for $750. I have been toying with the idea of building an Amiga graphics board with one of these on it but the software support required is well beyond my capabilities. Looks like Intel has finally designed something that is worth the silicon its on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Mark Thompson | | decvax!savax!thompson Designing high performance graphics | | (603)885-9583 silicon today for a better tomorrow. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------
raz%kilowatt@Sun.COM (Steve -Raz- Berry) (04/01/89)
In article <846@savax.UUCP> thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) writes: >In article <2017.AA2017@panchax> richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: >>2) Math chips >> From _EDN February 16, 1989, page 21_ Weitek has announced >> the Abacus 3168 numeric coprocessor. When teamed with a >> 25 Mhz '030 it gives 6M Whetstones and 1.5M Flops Linpack >> (Double Precision). It seems to be a multiply/divide square >> root unit, only, so you would still need a 68881 for >> transcendental functions. >Somewhat impressive, but why settle for less. The Intel 80860 (N-10) will >absolutely blow the doors off the Weitek part and just about anything else. > [lots of unbeliveable stuff about performance and low lovel graphics support] >Initial release will be in the 33MHz and 40MHz speeds but 50MHz is in >development. Yeah, but is it fast? ;^) One note, when I was at Raster we were doing a board design with the N10 to do all this fancy graphics stuff. The biggest problem we had with the chip was that it was so heavily pipelined that if you ever had to abort an instruction (interrupt) you would take major hits restarting the pipeline. (We had an external cache in addition to the internal one, so you could take a double miss...) Add to this the fact that only static rams could keep up with the damn thing to begin with and you got a complicated part to design around. In other words the design would most likely have been memory or I/O bound. But if the world were perfect and staic ram densities were equal to Drams, we would have had a board that would have set the performance standard for the industry. How fast can _you_ rotate a 3d space shuttle? > The parts are currently sampling for $750. I have been toying >with the idea of building an Amiga graphics board with one of these on it >but the software support required is well beyond my capabilities. Would be neet. I'd love the chance to do a high-perf dedicated graphics board too. I'd also like to run Unix and Intuition on it too... Just imagine the speed of Boing! or FA/18! >Looks like Intel has finally designed something that is worth the silicon >its on. Hard to believe isn't it? Must have been a fluke. >| Mark Thompson | >| decvax!savax!thompson Designing high performance graphics | >| (603)885-9583 silicon today for a better tomorrow. | So butthead, is your mailer fixed yet? Steve -Raz- Berry Disclaimer: I didn't do nutin! UUCP: sun!kilowatt!raz ARPA: raz%kilowatt.EBay@sun.com "Fate, it protects little children, old women, and ships named Enterprize"
king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (04/03/89)
In article <846@savax.UUCP> thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) writes: >Somewhat impressive, but why settle for less. The Intel 80860 (N-10) will >absolutely blow the doors off the Weitek part and just about anything else. >It is a 64 bit RISC processor with an internal FPU capable of 80 MFLOPS or >120 MOPS (millions of operations per second). [...] >Initial release will be in the 33MHz and 40MHz speeds but 50MHz is in >development. The parts are currently sampling for $750. [...] Excuse me if this seems like a foolish question, but how do they get 120 MOPS with a (maximum) 50MHz clock speed? I could understand an instruction executed on both the rising and falling edges of the clock, but that is still less than 120 MOPS. >Looks like Intel has finally designed something that is worth the silicon >its on. If this thing is made of silicon, I am inclined to agree. Sure it's not GaAs ? After all, 120MOPS implies 8.33 nS propogation; barely enough for a few simple TTL gates. /* the opinions herein may be flawed, but then they are only mine */ -- ...!utzoo!dretor!king or king%dretor@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca
swarren@rigel.uucp (Steve Warren) (04/04/89)
In article <846@savax.UUCP> thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) writes: >In article <2017.AA2017@panchax> richard@panchax.gryphon.COM (Richard J. Sexton) writes: >>2) Math chips >> From _EDN February 16, 1989, page 21_ Weitek has announced >> the Abacus 3168 numeric coprocessor. When teamed with a >> 25 Mhz '030 it gives 6M Whetstones and 1.5M Flops Linpack >> (Double Precision). It seems to be a multiply/divide square >> root unit, only, so you would still need a 68881 for >> transcendental functions. >Somewhat impressive, but why settle for less. The Intel 80860 (N-10) will >absolutely blow the doors off the Weitek part and just about anything else. >It is a 64 bit RISC processor with an internal FPU capable of 80 MFLOPS or >120 MOPS (millions of operations per second). Intel claims that peak [similar performance claims deleted] >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Mark Thompson | >| decvax!savax!thompson Designing high performance graphics | >| (603)885-9583 silicon today for a better tomorrow. | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, all these are wonderful, but I'd like to see a 68040 LUCAS :-). Full Harvard architecture (1.25 Million transistors) on one chip. That means an internal 68882 and MMU. Simple (relatively) hardware design, with software to drive it already in place. 2 MFLOPs (that is a lot of performance, even if it looks small next to 80 MFLOPs). There are disadvantages and trade-offs to every approach. Sure the Intel chip is fast (how fast is it really :-), but it's really a whole new processor. And 64 bit data busses add $$ to memory boards pretty fast. Performance costs. Personally, as long as I'm using an Amiga, I like the elegance and unity of a coprocessor that appears transparent to the rest of the system. The same software (OK, there are library differences, but that's been discussed in another notestream) can run on an inexpensive 500, or scream on the decked out '020 and '030 equipped systems. As I said, everything is a trade off. If you've got to have 80 MFLOPs (near-CRAY performance) then by all means go for it. That's what we do where I come from :-). But the average Amiga user will have trouble finding applications that will keep him waiting at 2 MFLOPs. PS - if you want to talk about it more, you might want to move over to comp.sys.amiga, since this isn't a technical discussion. ///X\\\ | Steve Warren | *******DISCLAIMER******* ///// \\\\ | Convex Computer Corporation | All opinions are my own. ||||| CONVEX | Richardson, Texas | Please don't try to pin \\\\\ //// | {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren | them on my innocent \\\X/// | swarren@convex.COM | employer.
raz%kilowatt@Sun.COM (Steve -Raz- Berry) (04/04/89)
In article <1619@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: )In article <846@savax.UUCP> thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) writes: ))Somewhat impressive, but why settle for less. The Intel 80860 (N-10) will ))absolutely blow the doors off the Weitek part and just about anything else. ))It is a 64 bit RISC processor with an internal FPU capable of 80 MFLOPS or ))120 MOPS (millions of operations per second). [...] ))Initial release will be in the 33MHz and 40MHz speeds but 50MHz is in ))development. The parts are currently sampling for $750. [...] ) )Excuse me if this seems like a foolish question, but how do they get )120 MOPS with a (maximum) 50MHz clock speed? I could understand an )instruction executed on both the rising and falling edges of the clock, but )that is still less than 120 MOPS. Don't quote me exactly but, They use a 64 bit IU bus which I believe is divided up 32bits integer/ 32bits floating point instruction. So we are talking 2 OPS per edge. How they get 120MOPS is something I don't want (or care) to think about now (it's past my bed time). ))Looks like Intel has finally designed something that is worth the silicon ))its on. )If this thing is made of silicon, I am inclined to agree. Sure it's not )GaAs ? After all, 120MOPS implies 8.33 nS propogation; barely enough for a )few simple TTL gates. I didn't think (or get the impression) that it was GaAs. Steve -Raz- Berry Disclaimer: I didn't do nutin! UUCP: sun!kilowatt!raz ARPA: raz%kilowatt.EBay@sun.com "Fate, it protects little children, old women, and ships named Enterprize"
w-colinp@microsoft.UUCP (Colin Plumb) (04/05/89)
king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) wrote: > Excuse me if this seems like a foolish question, but how do they get > 120 MOPS with a (maximum) 50MHz clock speed? I could understand an > instruction executed on both the rising and falling edges of the clock, but > that is still less than 120 MOPS. They have a special mode where the processor reads 64 bits of instruction per cycle and executes one intger op and one f.p. op. And the f.p. op can be a multiply-accumulate, which they count as two FLOPs. Thus, 150 MOPS peak at 50 MHz. In reality, of course... I posted more information than you probably want to know about the N-10/i860/80860 to comp.arch a while ago. Mail me if you want a copy. -- -Colin (uunet!microsoft!w-colinp) "Don't listen to me. I never do." - The Doctor
thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) (04/14/89)
In article <1619@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: >In article <846@savax.UUCP> thompson@savax.UUCP (thompson mark) writes: >>Somewhat impressive, but why settle for less. The Intel 80860 (N-10) will >>absolutely blow the doors off the Weitek part and just about anything else. >>It is a 64 bit RISC processor with an internal FPU capable of 80 MFLOPS or >>120 MOPS (millions of operations per second). [...] > >Excuse me if this seems like a foolish question, but how do they get >120 MOPS with a (maximum) 50MHz clock speed? I could understand an >instruction executed on both the rising and falling edges of the clock, but >that is still less than 120 MOPS. > >/* the opinions herein may be flawed, but then they are only mine */ >-- > ...!utzoo!dretor!king or king%dretor@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca Not foolish at all. Actually, the 120 MOPS is achieved on the 40MHz part by simultaneously executing a floating point add, floating point multiply, and an integer ALU operation in a single clock cycle. This doesn't even include whatever operation the graphics block is performing. Consequently, the 50 MHz part can attain 150 MOPS. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Mark Thompson | | decvax!savax!thompson Designing high performance graphics | | (603)885-9583 silicon today for a better tomorrow. | --------------------------------------------------------------------------