rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) (08/02/89)
I have been considering getting an expansion box for my A1000 so as to have Zorro II compatibility, the question I was wondering is: How different is the 2000 expansion slots compared to an expansion box (such as the tool box)? Is the a1000 bus speed, DMA etc. comparable to the 2000's? Also, I understand there is also a good bit of a problem with bus noise on the a1000s. Any input is appreciated... // Rick Golembiewski rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu \\ \\ #include stddisclaimer.h // \\ "I never respected a man who could spell" // \\ -M. Twain //
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (08/02/89)
In article <UYpSxuy00WB8A3V0ds@andrew.cmu.edu> rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) writes: > How different > is the 2000 expansion slots compared to an expansion box (such as the > tool box)? Speed is the same, and you'll find that most of the boards you try will work (depending on which vender you buy). Noise is a big problem which mades some boards not work, and causes other problems too. Reliability? Well, it all depends on who built it. Also, consider that to make a box inexpensive enough that customers will want to buy it (instead of an Amiga 2000) the design has to be "cost-driven". This (in my book) is a polite way of saying "cheap". This is further justified by the fact that high-end customers can afford a new machine while everyone else isn't looking for anything but a bargain. One thing that I've noticed is that there are no published specs for a proper way to design a card-cage like that for the Amiga. You can read the B2000 specs but it's not the same. There are just so many things that you could leave out. I know there are a number of designs out there, but for each of them I've heard someone say, "yeah they did it well, but they didn't do it RIGHT." C-A never published all the things that should go into a box like that because (we can guess) they're trying to sell new machines, not upgrades and also because it doesn't look good for the Amiga when you see a machine with a zillion little boxes attached to it. In my book, it comes down to this: You get what you pay for. If you are willing to live with certain difficulties (not knowing if that last guru was bad software or just plainly some flakey hardware you have) then go for it. Otherwise, if you prefer the safe method, go for a real upgrade to a 2000. Since it's a personal, "what's best for me" decision, I won't say what's better (but I will mention that I thought about it and ended up buying a 2000). ;-) > // Rick Golembiewski rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu \\ -- Tom Limoncelli -- tlimonce@drunivac.Bitnet -- limonce@pilot.njin.net Drew University -- Box 1060, Madison, NJ -- 201-408-5389 Standard Disclaimer: I am not the mouth-piece of Drew University :) Is it my imagination or are a lot of people posting everything twice? (: ...or is this some new rule that I don't know about?
rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower) (08/02/89)
Well, I've got a ToolBox by Expansion Technologies and so far it kinda works with my ASDG Dual Serial Card with the exception of GURU'ing every time I run a terminal program.. I had an extensive talk with the service manager over at Creative Computers in Lawndale and he said that most of those "bus-type" expansion chassis don't work very well (probably due to the daughter-board problems). Heck, I couldn't EVEN get my Comspec memory board to work when I plugged it into the right side pass-thru slot of the expansion chassis! The machine wouldn't even TRY to turn on, so as far as I'm concerned, the pass-thru bus option is null-and-void! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Caution, Assembly Language Programmer at Play! | | | | UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!rickf | | INET: rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com | +=============================================================================+
staatsvr@asdcds.cds.wpafb.af.mil (Vern Staats; ASD/SCED;) (08/03/89)
In article <18372@gryphon.COM> rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower) writes: >Well, I've got a ToolBox by Expansion Technologies and so far it kinda works ...[deleted text]... >as far as I'm concerned, the pass-thru bus option is null-and-void! I'll second that emotion! I've tried using the ASDG Minirack-C/2MB on the Toolbox's pass-thru and it fails it's memory tests every time. PAL grounding didn't help me either. The Xetec SCSI controller works on my system, as does the MicroBotics 8-Up DIP/2MB (so far -- only had the memory for a few days). P.S. The Xetec controller does work, albeit slowly, with maxtransfer set down to 0x001FE00 (128K). I woulda rather had a HardFrame, but MicroBotics told me it wouldn't work no-how no-way with the Toolbox. Boolean orthogonal(char *my_opinions, char *employer_opinions) {return(TRUE);} INET: staatsvr@asd.wpafb.af.mil /// Honey, I UUCP: nap1!asd!staatsvr \\\/// dereferenced Vern Staats, ASD/SCED, WPAFB OH 45433, 513-255-2714 \XX/ the kids
rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower) (08/05/89)
Well, I've had a few people send me messages (you I'm sure know who you are (:-) ) about the pals possibly needing to be grounded to make the ToolBox work better, and I just wanted to add that they ARE grounded and that didn't help much at all.. I'm in the process of having the PAL's completely replaced and I will see if that helps at all (I'm suspecting that it won't!). I must say that I'm not too impressed with these "ToolBox" types of hardware... +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Caution, Assembly Language Programmer at Play! | | | | UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!rickf | | INET: rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com | +=============================================================================+
perry@madnix.UUCP (Perry Kivolowitz) (08/06/89)
In article <18372@gryphon.COM> rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower) writes: >Well, I've got a ToolBox by Expansion Technologies and so far it kinda works >with my ASDG Dual Serial Card with the exception of GURU'ing every time I run >a terminal program.. I had an extensive talk with the service manager over at >Creative Computers in Lawndale and he said that most of those "bus-type" >expansion chassis don't work very well (probably due to the daughter-board >problems). Heck, I couldn't EVEN get my Comspec memory board to work when I >plugged it into the right side pass-thru slot of the expansion chassis! The >machine wouldn't even TRY to turn on, so as far as I'm concerned, the >pass-thru bus option is null-and-void! Wo there. If I am not mistaken, there is no -12 Volts provided by the Tool Box power supply (gee, and Zorro II requires it). It would be highly unlikely to get an RS-232 serial connection working (which outputs + and - 12 Volts) with- out one of the required voltages. I have heard of someone hacking a more appropriate power supply into a Tool Box but be aware that if not done carefully, this can cause a great deal of damage. If I am mistaken (about the missing voltage) I am sure someone will correct me (grin) pk -- Perry Kivolowitz, ASDG Inc. ARPA: madnix!perry@cs.wisc.edu {uunet|ncoast}!marque! UUCP: {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!perry CIS: 76004,1765 (what was that about ``giggling teenagers''?)
rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower) (08/06/89)
Well, I just thought that I would update a few more people on what is going on with MY Tool Box by Expansion Technologies.. I guess that I need to fill you in on a few other things firstly though! My Amiga has been DEAD for about a month now due to ripping out my daughterboard and attempting to replace ALL of my PAL's with new faster PAL's.. Anyway, about a month ago I unsoldered to the best of my ability (I broke a power pin on one chip (:-<) all 4 PAL's on the daughterboard and installed sockets in which to install the new PAL's. So, I went to the ONLY place that had PAL's available on a Saturday and bought some older version AMD/MMI PAL16L8ACN's and programmed them at work.. So, I install the darned thing and ... NOTHING! The thing was DOA! So, I figure that I've nuked my daughterboard and start looking into alternative replacements. Anyway, today I decided to try putting in the old parts and see what happens.. To my total AMAZEMENT, it works fine (I'm using it now!). It turns out that the replacement PAL's are too slow for me, so I'll have to get some faster parts next week from AMD.. Anyway, I decided to install the ToolBox and see what it might do.. So, I installed the Toolbox as the first item on the external bus and the system came right up (I've got an ASDG Dual Serial Card installed within it). So, then I tried putting my ComSpec AX2000 (2 Meg ram board) on the other side of the ToolBox and (like I figured!) it didn't work -- the system came up, but the memory wasn't there, or recognized! So, I put the ComSpec on as the first bus peripheral and the ToolBox as the second item.. EVERY time I tried that, the Kickstart screen would come up and as soon as it came up with the workbench screen and I inserted a workbench disk, within 10 seconds (more like 3) the system would GURU with either the GURU numbers OR without even getting that far -- the Power LED would just sit there and flash in a circular cycle. So, I'm hoping that my new PAL's (Low power/10ns speed) will help out the situation.. But, I'm pretty sure that it won't help a bit.. Also, I've installed the grounding mod! I also tried using my Bus Terminator and that didn't seem to do anything much at all.. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Caution, Assembly Language Programmer at Play! | | | | UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!rickf | | INET: rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com | +=============================================================================+
sjk@ut-emx.UUCP (sjk) (08/07/89)
An added note about the Toolbox. I'm not overall impressed with the quality of the thing, but I am running my C Ltd. Amega (1MB memory) board off the passthrough. I bought it with a Flash Card, but am about to try a Pac. Per. Overdrive instead. We'll just see if that works! Scot sjk@astro.as.utexas.edu
blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) (08/07/89)
From article <18498@gryphon.COM>, by rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower): > Well, I've had a few people send me messages (you I'm sure know who you are > (:-) ) about the pals possibly needing to be grounded to make the ToolBox work > better, and I just wanted to add that they ARE grounded and that didn't help > much at all.. I'm in the process of having the PAL's completely replaced and > I will see if that helps at all (I'm suspecting that it won't!). I must say > that I'm not too impressed with these "ToolBox" types of hardware... One more thing to try is swapping the 68000 if it is not a Motorola part. I've had an ASDG Minirack C (unbuffered parital Zorro I box) with a 2M RAM card on my 1000 for over two years without any problems. Then last month I added a Spirit Tech. clock (similar design to the Spirit internal RAM board, but just the clock) and the system became completely unreliable. It would crash anywhere from Kickstart, all the way up to running a random application. I was ready to toss the clock board in the trashcan, but I gave Spirit a call, and after hearing my tale of woe, they told me to come down so they could take a look at my system. They suggested the PAL grounding, but I'd already done that with no effect. Their next step was to replace the original Hitachi 68000 with a 10 MHz Motorola part. Surprise! The crashes went away completely. The Spirit tech didn't have any good explanation of why the Motorola part fixed everything, just the observation that they'd had this "fix" work a number of times in the past. My own guess is that the Hitachi and Signetics (also supposed to have the same problem) 68000's don't provide the same kind of fan-out that the Motorola 68000 does. Now this is obviously a hack and a kludge, not a real solution to the problem, on the other hand, if it works, it's hard to argue with it. I was pretty leery of this fix, but I've tried everything I can to crash the system, and it is still stable. Swapping the CPU will be easier than swapping the PALs, so you might want to try it first. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 Here: utah-cs!esunix!blgardne {ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne There: uunet!iconsys!caeco!i-core!worsel!blaine (My Amiga running uucp) "Nobody will ever need more than 64K." "Nobody needs multitasking on a PC."
rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com (Rick Flower) (08/09/89)
Yeah, I know about the 12 Volt deal with the ToolBox! I was told by someone at C=A that it didn't have the -12V (or +12V?) and that I would have to hack it into the box! The thing that I don't know however, is what Pin/Pins to connect it to! I'm currently at the stage where I am SERIOUSLY thinking about selling my A1000 and replacing it with an A2000 so that I can get on with life! P.S. If anyone is interested in an A1000 w/ 2.5 megs of memory + 2 drives + monitor + 1 "literally unused" ToolBox, let me know! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Caution, Assembly Language Programmer at Play! | | | | UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!rickf | | INET: rickf@pnet02.gryphon.com | +=============================================================================+