karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (10/25/89)
In article <23196@cup.portal.com> Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com writes: >> Until C= is confident enough to warranty their Amigas for a year, I'm not >> confident enough to buy one. I wonder how many others are waiting for >> Commodore to decide to put a real warranty on their equipment.... > > My Amiga 1000 that I have had for 3 1/2 years works just fine.. with the >90 day warranty no less. Another thing to consider is that you DON'T see a >PC with the features of the Amiga anywhere near the price. When pricing a >product the warranty period is a determining factor of retail cost. Are *YOU* >willing to pay more for a longer warranty?? So what? I also know of a half dozen people who bought A500s, and had them go back three or four times before they worked right -- and then, some time after 90 days they broke again -- this time it was on them. I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price. That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have several shortcomings: 1) The plastic case. Yes, the PLASTIC case. It deforms easily, is broken easily, and in general gives off the impression of >toy<. The A500s and A1000s have this problem. I have not looked closely at an A2000. These machines do not sell for anywhere near a >toy< price, so I expect quality in construction all around, >including< the case. I remember at least one A1000 that had problems with the case bending because someone put a monitor on top of it! This is unheard of in the PC land, where cases are made of METAL. 2) Shoddy construction. Included here are the problems with the A500 keyboards which are reputed to short out, some things I saw in the original A1000s that didn't really turn me on (the "stacking" method on the circuit boards) and a few other points. All in all, bad news. 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) 4) The warranty. As a commercial entity I might be interested in buying an Amy for work use. As an individual I am not -- because I cannot afford the hit that could come from a failure between 90 days and a year's time. 90 days is insufficient to prove out the hardware unless I use it every day for several hours -- and I can't be sure I'll do that. A year warranty would be likely to catch >all< the problems. This problem is exacerbated by all the custom chips and their costs, as well as the cost of repairs -- a reasonably simple problem could cost a few hundred bucks to get fixed! Say Agnes blows up. How much? Some $100 for the part, plus an hour or so tech time. Total cost of some $150 perhaps. On a $500-900 system (A500 here). Within the first 6 months of ownership? There is no chance I'm willing to accept that kind of risk. Sure, the Amy is a nice machine. It has great points. I have some complaints with the OS; it's lack of resource knowledge (ie: having to explicitly free your allocated storage before exiting) stinks, but that can be lived with (and worked around with some custom libraries which I can write). The HARWARE issues are harder to resolve, more expensive to fix when they manifest themselves. Let's take an example from the consumer market -- big-ticket stuff. A cellular phone, for example. Every unit out there I am aware of either has a one or three year warranty. They sell for somewhere around $1,000, a major investment for most people. They take a while to get fixed when they do break, and are >expensive< to fix if you're footing the bill. Yet companies are finding out more and more that even a 1 year warranty is not sufficient. 3 years is plenty long enough, and firms are increasingly offering that protection. The incremental cost increase is >not< large UNLESS THE PRODUCT BREAKS A LOT. So why is Commodore not doing something about this? Do Amigas have a horrible record in this department? If their repair record is excellent, and they have no major problems, why only a 90 day warranty -- the additional warranty's marginal cost would be minimal, right? Amys in Canada have a one year warranty. How about the US Commodore? -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/26/89)
in article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) says: > Summary: Heh, this is a CONSUMER item. Major consumer items have warranties > Xref: cbmvax comp.sys.amiga:44851 comp.sys.amiga.tech:8474 > 1) The plastic case. [...] I have not looked closely at an A2000. The A2000 has a metal case with a plastic front bezel, like most Clones. > 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and > (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to > be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have > a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) The floppy mechanisms used are industry standard 3.5" drives (the same kind you use for 720k floppies on Clones). There's a little bit of extra logic in external drives that sends the proper ID code to the Amiga, so it knows what kind of drive is connected and can thus automatically mount that drive for you. This logic also allows independent motor control of 4 daisy chained drives, which you can't get using the industry standard 34 pin ribbon cable alone (most Clones only support two drives, anyway). The keyboard does a number of things that PC keyboards don't do. Same reason, I suspect, Macs don't use Clone keyboards. The layout, however, is pretty close to standard (if anything, the AT keyboards mess up here by screwing around with the position of the control key and building an immense and annoying caps-lock key. DEC set a reasonable keyboard standard long before there ever was an IBM PC). > Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (10/27/89)
Karl, calm down... First off.. there is nothing wrong with making the A500's case out of plastic. It is a HOME computer, PERIOD! The A2000 for your information does have a metal case, because it is, more often used in pro markets (Video, etc..) None of the folks I know who have/had A1000's have ever had any problems. I know one person who had a small problem with the clock on his A2000. I know two people who had problems with an A500. And for the record ALL were under the 90 day warranty. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a 1 year warranty, if for nothing else than to calm the fears of new buyers. But your implication that the machine is more prone to problems, I just don't agree with. And my service tech (who belongs to our user's group) would also disagree with you that it takes a long time to get parts. Because it does not. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (10/27/89)
In article <8288@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) says: >> Summary: Heh, this is a CONSUMER item. Major consumer items have warranties >> 1) The plastic case. [...] I have not looked closely at an A2000. > >The A2000 has a metal case with a plastic front bezel, like most Clones. And the 500? The 1000 (admittedly defunct now)? >> 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and >> (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to >> be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have >> a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) > >The floppy mechanisms used are industry standard 3.5" drives (the same kind you >use for 720k floppies on Clones). There's a little bit of extra logic in >external drives that sends the proper ID code to the Amiga, so it knows what >kind of drive is connected and can thus automatically mount that drive for you. >This logic also allows independent motor control of 4 daisy chained drives, >which you can't get using the industry standard 34 pin ribbon cable alone (most >Clones only support two drives, anyway). "There's a little bit of extra logic in external drives".... which means that they won't work unless you have that extra bit of logic! In other words, they are indeed different. Independent motor control sounds interesting, but it's hardly necessary. I call this "change because it felt good", or more likely "change to make it harder for people to patch in non-proprietary hardware". >The keyboard does a number of things that PC keyboards don't do. Same reason, >I suspect, Macs don't use Clone keyboards. The layout, however, is pretty close >to standard (if anything, the AT keyboards mess up here by screwing around with >the position of the control key and building an immense and annoying caps-lock >key. DEC set a reasonable keyboard standard long before there ever was an >IBM PC). Keyboards I can understand -- as long as replacements are available at reasonable cost ($100 or so). They >are< different; I don't expect you to use the scancode system of a PC (although it would have been nice to see compatibility there as well). I noticed that conspicuous by it's absence was a response to my query regarding warranties.... >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > Too much of everything is just enough -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
billsey@agora.UUCP (Bill Seymour) (10/30/89)
From article :1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM:, by karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger):
:
: I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price.
: That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have
: several shortcomings:
:
: 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and
: (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to
: be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have
: a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?)
The Amigas use a standard IBM type 720K 3.5 inch drive... They just
store more data by writing full tracks rather than sector by sector. The
hardware is the same.
: Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, :well-connected:!ddsw1!karl)
: Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910]
: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
--
-Bill Seymour ...tektronix!reed!percival!agora!billsey
...tektronix!sequent.UUCP!calvin!billsey
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