dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) (01/12/90)
Since I received only 3 responses to this question from comp.sys.amiga, I'm appealing to the mighty wizards of .tech and the high gurus of C=. Come on, Commodore, you'd probably pick up some drive sales if you gave the OK for this: >> Since the aftermarket drives claim to draw only 1/4 the power of the old >> 1010, can I safely run two external drives on my 1-meg A500? The Master >> drive specifically says you can't, my local Amiga dealer says you can't. >> What gives? [By the way, I meant "two late-model external drives". Perhaps this would be safe, mixing one old and one new risky, and two old style smokes the power supply.???] =============================================================================== > From ogicse!unc.bitnet!UDOUGM Sat Dec 23 23:21:25 1989 > > I went through this same problem a year ago (so all the info here > is a year old). I called virtually all the floppy drive makers. > All of them said the same thing - you can safely add a second > external drive that doesn't have its own power supply, > but due to C= recommendation, we will in no way warrant or, > otherwise put our money where our mouth is, your machine. As > A500 power supplies have a reputation as being, ...... ahhh ......, > marginal, I gave M.A.S.T. the extra $25 for to get a floppy drive > with an external power supply. Struck me as cheap insurance. > > Doug McIntyre =============================================================================== > From galvey@sts.sts.COM Wed Jan 3 09:40:30 1990 > > I have had an A1010 drive (as df2:) and a CA-880 drive (as df1:) on > my A500 system for over a year now. I know that it is NOT RECOMMENDED but > I just tried it anyway! It has worked for me just fine! > I recently acquired an A590 hard drive and it works o.k. in this system > too. > > P.S. I don't do a lot of accessing of all the drives at the same time and it > can be quite annoying to hear the CLICKING of two or three drives at the same > time! =============================================================================== > From ogicse!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!mamba Fri Jan 5 07:50:30 1990 > > Well...I've got two external drives. One is an AIR drive, the other is > a CBM Amiga drive. They do work, however, only if the AIR drive is plugged > into the Amiga and the CBM drive into it. If I put the CBM drive first > then the machine crashes from lack of power. > > Go figure... > > Paul Deisinger =============================================================================== This is not what I would call a statistically valid sample. I NEED INPUT! --Dan Vander Pleog [dvp@sequent]
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/13/90)
In <DVP.90Jan11084211@crg3.UUCP>, dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >Since I received only 3 responses to this question from comp.sys.amiga, I'm >appealing to the mighty wizards of .tech and the high gurus of C=. >Come on, Commodore, you'd probably pick up some drive sales if you gave the >OK for this: > >>> Since the aftermarket drives claim to draw only 1/4 the power of the old >>> 1010, can I safely run two external drives on my 1-meg A500? The Master >>> drive specifically says you can't, my local Amiga dealer says you can't. >>> What gives? > > [ messages about success running more drives than recommended, deleted ..] > >This is not what I would call a statistically valid sample. > >I NEED INPUT! What exactly are you looking for? CBM specifically states their position in the documentation. You are free, as a user, to do anything you want with your system. CBM is free, as a manufacturer to tell you what they will or will not officially support. You now have all the input you need to make a decision as to whether you will add an unsupported peripheral or not. -larry -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/14/90)
In <617@xdos.UUCP>, doug@xdos.UUCP (Doug Merritt) writes: >In article <1006@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >>In <DVP.90Jan11084211@crg3.UUCP>, dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >> [ comments and questions about running 2 ext. drives deleted] >> >>What exactly are you looking for? CBM specifically states their position in the >>documentation. You are free, as a user, to do anything you want with your >>system. CBM is free, as a manufacturer to tell you what they will or will not >>officially support. >> >>You now have all the input you need to make a decision as to whether you will >>add an unsupported peripheral or not. > >Come now. He's looking for info to let him know how likely it is that >he could actually put two drives on his system, in practice. You tell >him Commodore's Official Position on the subject and explain to him the >concept of free will. Are you mad at him specifically or did you >just get up on the wrong side of the bed??? Neither one Doug. I anwered in the same spirit as I saw the question. He seemed to me to be asking for blessing to go ahead and do it, and be supported doing so. If I misinterpreted that intetntion, so be it. I handle trouble calls all day, and along with them come questions just like that, phrased like that, and I have to say essentially the same thing. >I thought his questions were reasonable. Giving him a hard time is >uncalled for. There's lots of people who would probably try a few >external drives if they thought there was (say) a 90% chance it would >work, even if Commodore recommends against. No hard time intended. -larry -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
doug@xdos.UUCP (Doug Merritt) (01/15/90)
In article <1006@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >In <DVP.90Jan11084211@crg3.UUCP>, dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: > [ comments and questions about running 2 ext. drives deleted] > >What exactly are you looking for? CBM specifically states their position in the >documentation. You are free, as a user, to do anything you want with your >system. CBM is free, as a manufacturer to tell you what they will or will not >officially support. > >You now have all the input you need to make a decision as to whether you will >add an unsupported peripheral or not. Come now. He's looking for info to let him know how likely it is that he could actually put two drives on his system, in practice. You tell him Commodore's Official Position on the subject and explain to him the concept of free will. Are you mad at him specifically or did you just get up on the wrong side of the bed??? I thought his questions were reasonable. Giving him a hard time is uncalled for. There's lots of people who would probably try a few external drives if they thought there was (say) a 90% chance it would work, even if Commodore recommends against. To go out on a limb here, if these newer external drives really do draw 1/4 less power than the older ones, then the answer would be "yes, of *course* you could use two of them. Probably." :-) More specifically, the important question is how much power is drawn, not how many drives are connected. If your system works with external drive X, then it should work with 2 external drives of type Y that draw less combined power than X did. Doug -- Doug Merritt {pyramid,apple}!xdos!doug Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow Professional Wildeyed Visionary
msiskin@shogun.us.cc.umich.edu (Marc Siskin) (01/15/90)
In article <617@xdos.UUCP> doug@xdos.UUCP (Doug Merritt) writes: >In article <1006@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >>In <DVP.90Jan11084211@crg3.UUCP>, dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >> [ comments and questions about running 2 ext. drives deleted] >> >>What exactly are you looking for? CBM specifically states their position in the >>documentation. You are free, as a user, to do anything you want with your >>system. CBM is free, as a manufacturer to tell you what they will or will not >>officially support. >> >>You now have all the input you need to make a decision as to whether you will >>add an unsupported peripheral or not. > >Come now. He's looking for info to let him know how likely it is that >he could actually put two drives on his system, in practice. You tell >him Commodore's Official Position on the subject and explain to him the >concept of free will. Are you mad at him specifically or did you >just get up on the wrong side of the bed??? > >I thought his questions were reasonable. Giving him a hard time is >uncalled for. There's lots of people who would probably try a few >external drives if they thought there was (say) a 90% chance it would >work, even if Commodore recommends against. > >To go out on a limb here, if these newer external drives really do draw >1/4 less power than the older ones, then the answer would be "yes, of >*course* you could use two of them. Probably." :-) > >More specifically, the important question is how much power is drawn, not how >many drives are connected. If your system works with external drive X, then >it should work with 2 external drives of type Y that draw less combined power >than X did. > Doug >-- >Doug Merritt {pyramid,apple}!xdos!doug >Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow Professional Wildeyed Visionary At the First Ami Expo in Chicago I brought my A500 to the Usenet Party so that people could upgrade their PD collections. Because there were so many people who wanted software (and it didn't hurt that Carolyn Scheppner and Lauren Brown were making copies of the latest Gamma Version of 1.3 for developers there) I was running 3 external drives to make copies. Everytime someone from CBM walked by the set-up they shook thier heads. I was using 2 small 'low power' drives that were purchased at the show and my A1010 drive. It may have helped that several people were fanning air into my power supply (the light weight switching version) but it did work. I also regularly use 2 external drives at home now that I am the Librarian of the local user Group. Marc Siskin Msiskin@shogun.us.cc.umich.edu USERHEBE@umichub
cmcmanis@stpeter.Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (01/16/90)
In article <DVP.90Jan11084211@crg3.UUCP> (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >Since I received only 3 responses to this question from comp.sys.amiga, I'm >appealing to the mighty wizards of .tech and the high gurus of C=. That is because you didn't ask a valid question. >>> Since the aftermarket drives claim to draw only 1/4 the power of the old >>> 1010, can I safely run two external drives on my 1-meg A500? The Master >>> drive specifically says you can't, my local Amiga dealer says you can't. >>> What gives? What kind of answer do you want? One that says "Sure go do it." If that is what you are looking for than you are out of luck. It isn't supported, so no one is going to tell you it will work for sure in your case. The correct answer is "You can't, it isn't supported." Is it that you don't understand that or do you just want something that isn't available? You can try it though, and you can hack the power supply to give you more juice, and you can solder in some external power or whatever else you choose. But the official answer is still, "No, it isn't supported." Sorry. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@Eng.Sun.COM These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "If it didn't have bones in it, it wouldn't be crunchy now would it?!"
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/16/90)
In <DVP.90Jan16155306@crg3.UUCP>, dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >Thank you, Doug Merritt! Not only did you sooth the burns I suffered >from Larry Phillips flames by coming to my defense; you also allowed >me to feel sympathy and pity for my attacker: > >An excellent model of civilized discourse! On the other hand, Chuck >McManis, whose postings I used to read no matter what the subject >line, seemed almost as rude as Larry Phillips. What is it about the >Net that encourages such behavior? Sorry you took the answers received from Chuck and myself as rude flames. I cannot speak for Chuck, but I assure you that I answered your question in the manner I did because of the way you asked it, and did not feel that my answer was anything but realistic. If you had not sounded like you were trying to have CBM bless the expansion, my answer would have been quite different, if I had answered at all. -larry -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
doug@xdos.UUCP (Doug Merritt) (01/16/90)
In article <1038@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: > I anwered in the same spirit as I saw the question. He seemed >to me to be asking for blessing to go ahead and do it, and be supported doing >so. If I misinterpreted that intetntion, so be it. I handle trouble calls all >day, and along with them come questions just like that, phrased like that, and >I have to say essentially the same thing. Ah. From that point of view, I understand the tone of your response. I suppose that if I fielded trouble calls from people trying to do unsupported things like multiple external drives, I'd probably want to discourage such behavior, too. People doing support usually have it pretty rough. Recommending that people do what's safe is a Good Thing in general. It's pity that the side effect can be to discourage people from doing something reasonable. Doug -- Doug Merritt {pyramid,apple}!xdos!doug Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow Professional Wildeyed Visionary
dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) (01/17/90)
Thank you, Doug Merritt! Not only did you sooth the burns I suffered from Larry Phillips flames by coming to my defense; you also allowed me to feel sympathy and pity for my attacker: > Ah. From that point of view, I understand the tone of your response. > I suppose that if I fielded trouble calls from people trying to do > unsupported things like multiple external drives, I'd probably want > to discourage such behavior, too. People doing support usually have it > pretty rough. > Recommending that people do what's safe is a Good Thing in general. > It's pity that the side effect can be to discourage people from doing > something reasonable. > Doug An excellent model of civilized discourse! On the other hand, Chuck McManis, whose postings I used to read no matter what the subject line, seemed almost as rude as Larry Phillips. What is it about the Net that encourages such behavior? In any case, the answers I've received so far seem to indicate that only the power supply is at risk when using multiple external drives, and not the computer itself. Since I'm only looking for convenience (not a massive backup operation of pirated software), and since I can afford a new power supply, I'm going to give it a try. I will NOT be buying a C= drive, though my salesman tells me the new A1010s also use less power--clearly, they don't care about my few dollars. --Dan
collins@pnet02.gryphon.com (Steven Collins) (01/18/90)
I built a 2 drive bay for from a pair of NEC drives for the (ack!) IBM, and
they have been running very happily on my A500 for a couple of months.
I have even plugged another drive onto the end of the chain and used
3 externals on several occasions. As a satisfied A1000 user for several
years, I foolishly skipped reading the A500 'USER' manual word for word. ,
so until now, I had no idea you were only supposed to put one external
drive on an A500!! This is certainly not mentioned in any of the
technical documentation I read in the course of building the interface
for these drives. (is it?). I guess the power supply sizing probably
knocked a couple of bucks of the A500 price, but I wonder if the limited
expandability is really worth it...
steve collins
ps: Are there any other little A500 suprises I should be aware of???
UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!collins
INET: collins@pnet02.gryphon.comcmcmanis@stpeter.Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (01/18/90)
In article <DVP.90Jan16155306@crg3.UUCP> (Dan Vander Ploeg) writes: >An excellent model of civilized discourse! On the other hand, Chuck >McManis, whose postings I used to read no matter what the subject >line, seemed almost as rude as Larry Phillips. What is it about the >Net that encourages such behavior? I apologize for my rudeness, it is always inexcusable. In the course of watching this group grow from it's merest beginnings of net.micro.amiga to the current traffic killer I've become a bit jaded I suppose. It would appear that Larry and I both read your message to be : "I keep asking people if I can run more than 1 external drive, and both they and the documentation tell me I can't. So no one has answered my question, 'Can I run more than 1 external drive?'" It reads sort of like a non-sequitur. Doug's response was indeed the correct one. Specifically : Yes, you might be able to do it, however there are several random factors such as the amount of excess power available from your power supply. If the power supply meets C/A specs then you will probably be fine however many power supplies derate things such as load regulation when they get near the upper limits of the spec. A good power supply will be in spec right up to the limit, but those are expensive and C/A doesn't care to spend a lot on the power budget. Thus it might work most of the time until both floppies try to step at the same time whereupon your system will crash. If you have a scope and a pile of power resistors you can characterize your supply by drawing more and more current from it while measuring line regulation, ripple, and transient response (ie what happens when you change the load quickly). Then you can make a quite qualified statement about whether or not the configuration will work. Be sure and check the supply cold (use freeze spray) and warm (a hair dryer works fine). Given that effort you will know that your supply works or doesn't, but C/A may have (I believe they do) several suppliers for power supplies, and there are variations within the same power supply manufacturer's units. So if you find that your system will handle it, you can't generalize that to another system. Because of all these factors a couple of things come out : 1) Asking for other people's experience is less useful than it might originally appear. 2) Your answer won't necessarily be valuable to anyone else. If you had asked the question, "What is the worse that could happen if I tried this to see if it will work?" Then the answer is a simple, the system won't boot in the worse case, and will crash more frequently in the common case, and will run fine in the exceptional case. What I personally wanted to avoid was accidently letting someone who was on an extremely tight budget mistakenly believe that this had a good chance of working and to go out and spend $X on one or two drives only to find that their power supply couldn't hack it and then blame "us" for the bogus advice. That combined with some built in aversion to newcomers to the Amiga that buy one and then bitch about what it doesn't do as opposed to what it does made for an ugly situation. I'm sorry. P.S. Some external drives don't pass power, others do. Make sure you get one that does. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@Eng.Sun.COM These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "If it didn't have bones in it, it wouldn't be crunchy now would it?!"
dvp@crg3.UUCP (Dan Vander Ploeg) (01/19/90)
I apologize to Chuck McManis and Larry Phillips. I understand now that I did not adequately state my question. And thank you, Chuck, for your lucid explanation . Your technical writing was, as usual, excellent. A most satisfying answer.