lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (02/14/90)
In <"90-02-14-17:50:45.32*UK4H"@DKAUNI2.BITNET>, UK4H@DKAUNI2.BITNET ("JAE ", Juergen A. Erhard) writes: >Hi folks, > >especially you at CBM... >Harald reminded me of an idea that I had yesterday: >Ain't it possible to make autodocs and such stuff available on the net >(FTP or some such...)??? > >Or do you try to get as rich as Midas selling those RKM's (;-)). If so, >you are at least partly to blame for misbehaved software... The autodocs are available from CATS for about $20 or $25 US. They will sell to anyone, not just developers. Ask for the 'Native Developer's Upgrade'. It's a 5 disk set, and worth every penny of the asking price. It includes the includes, and since several freely distributable assemblers are available, there is little reason to go 'SEKA right to the hardware' route. -larry -- Gallium Arsenide is the technology of the future; always has been, always will be. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
UK4H@DKAUNI2.BITNET ("JAE ", Juergen A. Erhard) (02/15/90)
Hi folks,
especially you at CBM...
Harald reminded me of an idea that I had yesterday:
Ain't it possible to make autodocs and such stuff available on the net
(FTP or some such...)???
Or do you try to get as rich as Midas selling those RKM's (;-)). If so,
you are at least partly to blame for misbehaved software...
To summarise: I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Haralds msg. It's
just too difficult to get docs over here in Germany (or Europe).
There are many *serious* programmers here in Germany (and Europe) who as
consider their local CBM represantatives a bunch of idiots. This is not o go
a flame, just a fact I've experienced. low.
> How sending competent personal to fairs instead of marketroids and
That'd be FINE!!! Of course, every now and then, one stumbles
(accidentialy) over a competent guy at a CBM booth, but that's *really*
rare...
-jae
========================================================================
Juergen A. Erhard
eMail: uk4h@dkauni2.bitnet
phone: (+49) 721/591602
"You know that it's monday when you wake up and it's tuesday."
Garfield
DISCLAIMER: none, I don't speak legalese.daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (02/16/90)
In article <4992@wehi.dn.mu.oz> BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >We don't get marketing folk even. We get NOTHING. CBM do NOTHING. They ARE >nothing. With the one exception that a nice technical bloke helped me over the >phone with a hardware problem. The usual problem is I apply to CBA Australia >for developer status, right to alter narrator device, docs, ANYTHING; with >absolutely NO ANSWER. If I write to the US CBM, I just get refered back to the >Australian CBM. They are completely USELESS and DO NOTHING. Please sack them. Part of the problem is separating customer support from technical support. The customer support people are supposed to know bits about common problems, and where to get things fixed, but the only thing they should know about real Developer Support is the name of the local Developer Support manager (I suppose in a small enough area it could even be the same guy). The ADSPE (Amiga Developer Support Program Europe, which just recently added Australia and New Zealand too) is the equivalent of CATS for Europe and the Pacific. They have some excellent technical people, but that haven't been at it as long as CATS. I attended the ADSPE sessions at the Paris DevCon last week, and can really say they are making progress. They have organized some groups over UUCP for technical support, and while they've just started this network throughout Germany and over here to cbmvax this week, it is up and running and looks very good. I expect it'll spread throughout the rest of Europe and I'd think Australia, etc. over the next month or so. However, coordination with the local Developer Support managers is absolutely necessary. I may have all the hardware answers you'd care to ask, but I certainly don't have the time to answer every possible question. However, Thomas Giger at ESCO (which is the central point of the ADSPE network, in Frankfurt) probably has most of the answers, and would certainly hit me or another engineer directly with one he can't answer. You local support guy may not be able to handle every question, but he will certainly know more locally important things than anyone in Frankfurt or West Chester. And if you really have a problem with the local guy, no one in West Chester is going to know much about this guy anyway. So if you've really exhausted all patience with the guy, go directly above him, not to a parallel group who may know nothing about him. But I would encourage patience, especially considering how new much of this stuff is, especially in Australia and New Zealand, where things are probably still just being organized to fit in with the way the rest of the world works. With all that said, personally I'm just dying to get to Australia some day, and if answering Amiga questions along the way would get me there, I'm all for it :-).... >Please, I'd do anything! (Well almost anything). But leave the nice bloke in >the technical department. >Regards Alan -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz (02/16/90)
In article <"90-02-14-17:50:45.32*UK4H"@DKAUNI2.BITNET>, UK4H@DKAUNI2.BITNET ("JAE ", Juergen A. Erhard) writes: > Hi folks, > > especially you at CBM... > Harald reminded me of an idea that I had yesterday: > Ain't it possible to make autodocs and such stuff available on the net > (FTP or some such...)??? I agree. I have already spent 1.5X the cost of my cpu on manuals > > Or do you try to get as rich as Midas selling those RKM's (;-)). If so, > you are at least partly to blame for misbehaved software... > > To summarise: I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Haralds msg. It's > just too difficult to get docs over here in Germany (or Europe). > There are many *serious* programmers here in Germany (and Europe) who as > consider their local CBM represantatives a bunch of idiots. This is not o go > a flame, just a fact I've experienced. low. > >> How sending competent personal to fairs instead of marketroids and > That'd be FINE!!! Of course, every now and then, one stumbles > (accidentialy) over a competent guy at a CBM booth, but that's *really* > rare... > We don't get marketing folk even. We get NOTHING. CBM do NOTHING. They ARE nothing. With the one exception that a nice technical bloke helped me over the phone with a hardware problem. The usual problem is I apply to CBA Australia for developer status, right to alter narrator device, docs, ANYTHING; with absolutely NO ANSWER. If I write to the US CBM, I just get refered back to the Australian CBM. They are completely USELESS and DO NOTHING. Please sack them. Please, I'd do anything! (Well almost anything). But leave the nice bloke in the technical department. Regards Alan > -jae > > ======================================================================== > Juergen A. Erhard > eMail: uk4h@dkauni2.bitnet > phone: (+49) 721/591602 > "You know that it's monday when you wake up and it's tuesday." > Garfield > DISCLAIMER: none, I don't speak legalese.
aduncan@rhea.trl.oz.au (Allan Duncan) (02/16/90)
From Dave Haynie... > The ADSPE (Amiga Developer Support Program Europe, which just recently added > Australia and New Zealand too) is the equivalent of CATS for Europe and the > Pacific. They have some excellent technical people, but that haven't been at > it as long as CATS. I attended the ADSPE sessions at the Paris DevCon last > week, and can really say they are making progress. They have organized some > groups over UUCP for technical support, and while they've just started this ^^^^ > network throughout Germany and over here to cbmvax this week, it is up and > running and looks very good. I expect it'll spread throughout the rest of > Europe and I'd think Australia, etc. over the next month or so. > Australia and New Zealand take their UUCP feed via Hawaii ! Not only that, but most of our developers here interact with people in the USA, rather than Europe. Really, our only connection with Europe is PAL, and a dislike of the English :-) Allan Duncan ACSnet aduncan@rhea.trl.oz ARPA aduncan%rhea.trl.oz.au@uunet.uu.net UUCP {uunet,hplabs,ukc}!munnari!rhea.trl.oz.au!aduncan Telecom Research Labs, PO Box 249, Clayton, Victoria, 3168, Australia.
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (02/17/90)
>In article <"90-02-14-17:50:45.32*UK4H"@DKAUNI2.BITNET>, UK4H@DKAUNI2.BITNET >("JAE ", Juergen A. Erhard) writes: >> Hi folks, >> >> especially you at CBM... >> Harald reminded me of an idea that I had yesterday: >> Ain't it possible to make autodocs and such stuff available on the net >> (FTP or some such...)??? Hmmm.. usually I would say "yeah , right , give away a saleable product!" , but since these files are already in text form who knows ????? >> Or do you try to get as rich as Midas selling those RKM's (;-)). If so, I doubt it seriously , they make a profit I am sure --- wich IS what the company is there for! Face facts gang ... how many manuals did IBM give away free ??? (Technical) - - how much effort did they even put into SELLING THEM ?? -- FOr a reasonable price , I can have REAL LIVE C-A OFFICIAL DOCS .. in one place, fromn one publisher , with all the right info. By contrast , on my PC stuff I buy a 29.00$ book because there is one good CHAPTER that is not duplicating what all my other books say. >> you are at least partly to blame for misbehaved software... WRONG. The only person ever to blame for bad programming is the programmer. Too bad if you dont get free documentation on all the features. Granted , multi-lingual books SHOULD be made available ... but we dont have multi- lingual C (or do we????) ...... but dont try and blame C-A because you evaded the OS. **************************************************************************** Everything I say is Copr. 1990, except the stuff I stole from someone else and the stuff I don't want responsibility for. Kenneth J. Jamieson: Xanadu Enterprises Inc. "Professional Amiga Software" UUCP: tron1@tronsbox.UUCP BEST PATH ---> uunet!tronsbox!tron1 Sysop, Romantic Encounters BBS - (201)759-8450 / (201)759-8568 ****************************************************************************
xanthian@saturn.ADS.COM (Metafont Consultant Account) (02/18/90)
In article <25dcddd8:964.2comp.sys.amiga.tech;1@tronsbox.UUCP> tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) writes: >Granted, multi-lingual books [Amiga manuals] SHOULD be made available... >Kenneth J. Jamieson No, they shouldn't. One of the things that has contributed most to the spread of software technology worldwide is standardization on English as the language of programmers. To what good fortune we can attributed this I know not, and which language it was didn't matter that much, but don't even suggest messing it up. If we have to translate all the manuals for all the computers produced all over the world to every one of over 300 languages of places where the computers might be used, most of the third world will never see the information revolution happen, and the rest of us will lose the ability to share things with one another. The level of English literacy worldwide is high enough to support a single language for programming, parochial as that sounds from a native English speaker. Let's keep working on helping the world merge, rather than fragment. -- xanthian@ads.com xanthian@well.sf.ca.us (Kent Paul Dolan) Again, my opinions, not the account furnishers'.
eachus@aries.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) (02/24/90)
In article <10942@saturn.ADS.COM> xanthian@saturn.ADS.COM (Metafont Consultant Account) writes: > No, they shouldn't. One of the things that has contributed most to > the spread of software technology worldwide is standardization on > English as the language of programmers. To what good fortune we can > attributed this I know not, and which language it was didn't matter > that much, but don't even suggest messing it up..... Acutally the choice of languge did matter. In many areas of computer science, such as compiler and language design, it seems to be necessary to be fluent in English, Russian, or one of the Germanic languages. Ada is not a counterexample. All of the members of the French led design team were and are fluent in English, and although some would contend that some of the design team discussions were held in English as opposed to American, very little, if any, work was done in French. Even today in Alsys S.A. headquaters in Paris, it is rare to hear technical discussion in French, and the company is partly owned by the French government. Of course, anyone will tell you that whatever language the Algol 68 Revised Report is written in, it isn't English. But that just illustrates why a mutable languge is necessary for programmers--you often have to add new terms to describe new concepts. Even more interesting is that, although people who learned Chinese as a native tounge seem to have a special aptitude for compiler work, it is almost impossible for them to master langauge grammers unless they have mastered English. Before anyone starts flaming, read what I said carefully. This is all about "milk languages" and not about race. I have known people of almost every race who were bi- or multi-lingual, worked on compilers, and learned Chinese as children. Knowing English, Chinese, Russian, and German (or Danish, Swedish, or Dutch) helped greatly in about that order, but in the few cases where I knew someone fluent in Chinese and French, their expertise increased dramatically as they mastered English. Those who spoke, say, Russian, German and Yiddish as children did not improve in technical ability as their English improved. (However their comments got lots more readable. :-) In my experience Japanese, Arabic, and Korean are all poison in the compiler world. If you know them, try to forget them. In a very cosmopolitan computer company I used to work for, it was easy to dig up someone who spoke the language of any visiting customer like a native (even Czech, Vietnamese, and Thai), but we had to hire someone in marketing who could speak Japanese since no one else did. Spanish French, and Italian seem to be only a slight hinderance. -- Robert I. Eachus with STANDARD_DISCLAIMER; use STANDARD_DISCLAIMER; function MESSAGE (TEXT: in CLEVER_IDEAS) return BETTER_IDEAS is...
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne C Knapp) (02/24/90)
In article <EACHUS.90Feb23143637@aries.aries.mitre.org>, eachus@aries.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) writes: > > In my experience Japanese, Arabic, and Korean are all poison in > the compiler world. If you know them, try to forget them. ... Maybe this is true. However, it use seems like the Japanese are kicking our butts in visual programing languages. Two examples are: Extended HI-Visual by T. Ichikawa (Univ. of Hiroshima) & The Show and Tell system by T.D. Kimura (Washington Univ. in St. Louis) Seems like the future is much brighter in visual languages than plain old standard compiled languages. Also not to start a war, but I know that Show and Tell runs on Mac, does anyone know of any visual languages on the Amiga? Wayne Knapp