a708@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) (10/31/90)
Why not roll the midi file sequencer standard into something for the amiga? This way, your files are compatible with (up and coming??) professional sequencers from all computers... (but don't use that amiga pd midilib that has a clock that can't keep time!!!) You could develop music on your amiga without an external synth, then wander over to a freind's place with the file, and hear it on a fullblown midi studio..(No matter what computer he has... Ok, maybe modem the file over..) Gord Wait
ST00482@auvm.auvm.edu (10/31/90)
I would like to start a discussion on the replacement of the SMUS
standard. The main reason for this is that the quality of SMUS files
is horrible compared to some of the SoundTracker modules that I have
heard. I cringe when I see an AmigaVision module running and hear the
soundtracks they have.
I realize that this sounds quite unorthodox, but then we all own
Amigas. :-) And I'm serious about this. Using SMUS files for real
products, multi-media and otherwise, it's kind of like running a
Corvette on Sunoco Economy grade gas. It works, but you don't get
near the performance that it is capable of.
Another reason why I think that a change would be good is that there
are no freely distributable programs, that I know of, that will write
SMUS files. The only programs that I know of are DMCS and SONIX.
Having owned DMCS for several years, and a music background, I see
much to be desired. Also these programs are quite old and have not
been updated for quite a long time. (correct me if I'm wrong)
On the other hand, MED is public domain and writes out SoundTracker
modules. It can be located in one of the Amiga archive sites, and
everybody can get can get a copy. (Is it on a Fish Disk?) Also, there
are various versions of Sound/Noise Tracker out there, though of
dubious lineage and legality.
There are also hundreds of SoundTracker modules out there that can be
used. Some of these are of very high quality; e.g. some of the 17bit
songs are the best I've ever heard. There are also at least 15-20
disks of samples available.
Last, the players that I've seen for these modules work in the
vertical blank period, and so affect the CPU less than SMUS players.
SO WHAT IS MY POINT?
I think that there should be a new standard for songs that resembles
the format that the SoundTracker modules are in. It will offer higher
quality music, allow more people to become musicians, and be easy to
play. The main point is that the quality of the music will be a lot
higher.
What I'm hoping is that the more traditional composers, who like and
need the standard notation will be able to get software that they can
use, but outputs files of the new standard. Of course, this is for
the future.
So agree, disagree, but put flames in /dev/null. I just want to start
a discussion on a possible way to correct a serious deficiency that I
think exists.
dan.
chopin!dan@uunet.uu.net --> please use.
st00482@auvm.bitnet --> yeeeechhill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) (11/01/90)
Ok I'll bite :-)
First off ST/NT is a totally inadequate format. If has 64 "quanta" divisions
per blocks. Is is bad for triplets and music isn't "BLOCK" oriented it is
measure oriented and the standard should be measure oriented as well.
Now over in rec.music they are talking about a standard based on SDML
(Standard ???? Markup Language). This would represent scores only (from what
I can gather from following threads), there would need to be an extension for
instruments if we wanted to encapsulate all parts necessary to play a song.
For binary data a ASCII file would be on the largish size. So we could have
a binary version for "encapsulated songs. (Encapsulated MusicScript anyone? )
I have no idea if CBM CATS would like a ASCII music standard. Now on to the
hard stuff :-)
Ok .. Simple to define meter, simple for (de)creshendo, pitch and duration
fine.... Trills - is there a formula to "compute" a trill. Should we indicate
a trill and make the implementation application dependent? This applies to all
ornamentation as well.
Are there any good books out there on the "mechanics" of music. Especially
ones geared toward computer representation of music. If someone from CATS
would respond I would like to know "who" can develop a IFF form and if
someone is already working on it (Dissident's has developed a SAMP form
already.)
The ball is rolling.....
--
adam hill "I will tell you three things.."
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA!
Amiga... Multimedia NOW!!
24 Bit Color(n.) Large waster of bandwidth. "Amiga walk with me ........"greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (11/01/90)
In article <1990Oct31.182940.17900@evax.arl.utexas.edu> hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) writes: >First off ST/NT is a totally inadequate format. If has 64 "quanta" divisions >per blocks. Is is bad for triplets and music isn't "BLOCK" oriented it is >measure oriented and the standard should be measure oriented as well. I don't see this as a problem since a suitable tempo can be picked that will allow multiples of 2, 3, 4, 6, whatever. The blocks themselves need not reflect the measures written in the case of a traditional music editor. In other words, you could write a program to allow the user to enter the music in traditional format with measures, triplets, etc. and translate them to ST/NT format. The dynamic tempo adjustment should be able to handle just about anything. One thing that _does_ bother me is the problem with songs written on PAL machines being played on NTSC machines too fast and the other way around. MED attacks this problem by using a CIA timer (I believe) instead of the screen refresh rate. Soooo....I think that this should be done in the traditional song editor too. One possible problem with the above speed solution is that MED doesn't work under 2.0 (from my experience). I assume that there is a legal way to get a CIA timer, though. > The ball is rolling..... At least I hope it is... >-- > adam hill "I will tell you three things.." > hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA! > Amiga... Multimedia NOW!! > 24 Bit Color(n.) Large waster of bandwidth. "Amiga walk with me ........" ---------------Greg-Harp---------------greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu---------------- AMIGA! // // Don't you just hate those long signature files? I mean, there oughta \X/ be a law. If I were in control, .sigs would get cut off if they were
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) (11/01/90)
In article <3687@mindlink.UUCP> a708@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) writes: >Why not roll the midi file sequencer standard into something for the amiga? [ stuff deleteted ] > >Gord Wait That wouldn't be bad, but would require ALOT of parsing. First throw out all SYS EX messages then decide what to do with a 24 track song :-) Actually that would not be too bad but I thought the MIDI file standard was ASCII... Guess it is time to go over to rec.music and ask some questions and get a copy of the MIDI file standard. Anyone got any FTP sites where "music stuff" is kept???? -- adam hill "I will tell you three things.." hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA! Amiga... Multimedia NOW!! 24 Bit Color(n.) Large waster of bandwidth. "Amiga walk with me ........"
hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) (11/01/90)
In article <38990@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: >In article <1990Oct31.182940.17900@evax.arl.utexas.edu> >In other words, you could write a program to allow the user to enter the >music in traditional format with measures, triplets, etc. and translate >them to ST/NT format. The dynamic tempo adjustment should be able to >handle just about anything. Translation is fine. A music composition program should use MUSIC notation and should be BPM based. >One thing that _does_ bother me is the problem with songs written on PAL >machines being played on NTSC machines too fast and the other way >around. MED attacks this problem by using a CIA timer (I believe) instead >of the screen refresh rate. Soooo....I think that this should be done >in the traditional song editor too. One could use a CIA timer but we'd have to use CIAA B. A is use by 2.0 for something. >---------------Greg-Harp---------------greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu---------------- -- adam hill "I will tell you three things.." hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu Make Up Your Own Mind.. AMIGA! Amiga... Multimedia NOW!! 24 Bit Color(n.) Large waster of bandwidth. "Amiga walk with me ........"
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (11/01/90)
How about starting with getting Electronic Arts to publish the DMCS format? More to the point, and enhanced SMUS is easily possible under IFF. Just make new chunks. If a new format isn't IFF, I don't want to know about it. The fact that so many of these music programs decided to abandon IFF has been a major sore point. Finally, how about adding the very slight enhancements needed to make the MIDI File Format an IFF form? It's basically IFF without the FORM header and the alignment requirements anyway. Designing a FORM MFF would be cake. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
eb15+@andrew.cmu.edu (Edward D. Berger) (11/01/90)
I think we need to take a better look at SMUS first. First of all Soundtracker, Noisetracker, et al have the questions of legality, and as far as I know do not run properly on the A3000 under 2.01 AmigaOS. Someone should tackle writing a "freely distributable" SMUS music program(s) with source available, so others will make more use of this format. If there are obvious deficiencies, then we should look at defining an updated, or alternative standard. I really doubt that the authors of soundtracker/etc. will submit a standard format to CATS for approval, or that it would succed if they did since there seem to be so many different authors involved in that area. We have SMUS. Lets make it usable. -Ed Berger eb15@andrew.cmu.edu
djh@neuromancer.metaphor.com (Dallas J. Hodgson) (11/02/90)
I think we've gone over this before; FOLKS, there is more out there than DMCS and AmigaVision that support SMUS. Instant Music, Music-X, Dynamic Studio. Many piece of Amiga software have "import" facilities that make SMUS a fair (and well documented, 3rd-party independent) Amiga platform. I'm not familiar with the SoundTracker format. Indeed, I've never heard of it. What I'd prefer to hear is what would you improve about the SMUS format? It's not ideal, but it IS extensible and it is in the public domain. Commodore has published a PD SMUS player in past Amiga Tech Journals, although it's a simple one that doesn't support in-track chords. Before we go campaigning for new music formats, at least make sure there's a PD SMUS conversion utility, a well-published developer's guideline, and an attempt at making the spec IFF-compliant. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dallas J. Hodgson | "This here's the wattle, | | Metaphor Computer Systems | It's the emblem of our land. | | Mountain View, Ca. | You can put it in a bottle, | | USENET : djh@metaphor.com | You can hold it in your hand." | +============================================================================+ | "The views I express are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer" | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (11/03/90)
Aaaargh!
Sorry about this; I gave a wrong newsgroup name and my news posting software
bought off on it. The group is comp.text.sgml, not comp.std.sgml. Mea culpa.
^^^^
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
>hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill) writes:
>[...]
>> Now over in rec.music they are talking about a standard based on SDML
>> (Standard ???? Markup Language). This would represent scores only
>> (from what I can gather from following threads), there would need to
>> be an extension for instruments if we wanted to encapsulate all parts
>> necessary to play a song.
>Probably that's SGML, Standard Generalized Markup Language, a
>meta-standard for describing standards for capturing the structure of
>complex documents (a music score certainly qualifies); there is a new
>newsgroup comp.std.sgml; its a shame none of the rec.music discussion
^^^text
>has been cross-posted there; the sgml experts live in comp.std.sgml.
^^^text
>This one is cross-posted; at least the groups will be aware of one
>another now. Please correct the newsgroup line in followups.
>> Are there any good books out there on the "mechanics" of music.
>I forget the exact title, but there is a refereed journal of computers
>and music that is at least a couple of years old where this stuff is
>discussed in enough detail to get a hacker salivating.
>> adam hill
>> hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu
Sorry about that; cancelling the original, not that it will help much at
this late hour.
/// It's Amiga
/// for me: why
Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for
<xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less?
--
Convener, ongoing comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.dgold@basso.actrix.co.nz (Dale Gold) (11/05/90)
Quoted from - hill@evax.arl.utexas.edu (Adam Hill): > > First off ST/NT is a totally inadequate format. It has 64 "quanta" > divisions per blocks. It is bad for triplets and music isn't "BLOCK" > oriented it is measure oriented and the standard should be measure > oriented as well. A VERY important point. I think that Soundtracker originated as a way of writing music for demos, and I guess those blocks of 64 make things easy for a programmer, but although the ST/NT format may have become a defacto standard for Amiga music, giving serious consideration to adopting it as the basis for a replacement for SMUS/IFF is a step backward. No, it's several steps backward. Why not look into something that relates to the MIDI specs? This has been carefully defined, and covers all the important possibilities, and is not specific to any brand of computer. > Are there any good books out there on the "mechanics" of music. Especially > ones geared toward computer representation of music. Music shops are full of books about MIDI, and I've seen several that deal with the technical end. Keyboard magazine is a good source of info, & book titles. -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% | | Critics can't even make | | dgold@basso.actrix.co.nz | music by rubbing their back | | | legs together. - Mel Brooks | %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%