milamber@engin.umich.edu (Daryl Scott Cantrell) (12/20/90)
Hmm, I just got a program to make my A3000's drive stop clicking to run (thanks to martin@iro.umontreal.can for the header info). It sets a noclick bit in the v36 trackdisk.device. Which brings up the question, why does trackdisk default to clicking? There seems to be no difference in functionality between clicking and not-clicking state, and I can't imagine anyone actually WANTING ther drives to make that annoying sound.. So why would Commodore go to all the trouble of including this feature and yet force people to ftp a prog- ram or "roll their own" in order to take advantage of it? - Puzzled in Detroit. (where the weak are killed and eaten.) -- Programmer = (BypassesOpSys ? HAS_NO_TALENT : HAS_TALENT); +---------------------------------------+----------------------------+ | // Daryl S. Cantrell | These opinions are | | |\\\ milamber@caen.engin.umich.edu | shared by all of // | | |// Evolution's over. We won. | Humanity. \X/ | +---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
david@dogmelb.dog.oz.au (David Le Blanc) (12/20/90)
In article <1990Dec19.164559.19792@engin.umich.edu>, milamber@engin.umich.edu (Daryl Scott Cantrell) writes: > Hmm, I just got a program to make my A3000's drive stop clicking Good for you.. > Which brings up the > question, why does trackdisk default to clicking? There seems to be Because that is what it has always been. (compatible!!) > no difference in functionality between clicking and not-clicking Er, *IF* the drive handles being stepped backward past track zero that is.. > state, and I can't imagine anyone actually WANTING ther drives to I dont *WANT* my drive to make that sound, but since it doesnt handle stepping back past track (0 or 1?), turning 'noclick' on, makes a worse noise, and may damage the drive! > make that annoying sound.. So why would Commodore go to all the > trouble of including this feature and yet force people to ftp a prog- Thats what I find strange, there is required to be a driveprefs program in the prefs directory to allow you to do things like turn on/off the noclicking, set the stepper rate, rename drives (so the external drive could boot up as df1:) etc. I believe such as program SHOULD exists! > > - Puzzled in Detroit. > (where the weak are killed and eaten.) But you're still here?? Or am I confusing weak and feeble? :-))) > > | |\\\ milamber@caen.engin.umich.edu | shared by all of // | -- Email: david@dogmelb.dog@munnari.oz | Division of Geomechanics, TEL. (03) 881 1355 | CSIRO, P.O. Box 54 FAX (03) 881 2052 | Mt Waverley 3149, | AUSTRALIA.
dailey@buster.cps.msu.edu (Chris Dailey) (12/21/90)
In article <135@dogmelb.dog.oz.au> david@dogmelb.dog.oz.au (David Le Blanc) writes: >In article <1990Dec19.164559.19792@engin.umich.edu>, milamber@engin.umich.edu (Daryl Scott Cantrell) writes: >> Hmm, I just got a program to make my A3000's drive stop clicking >Good for you.. >> Which brings up the >> question, why does trackdisk default to clicking? There seems to be >Because that is what it has always been. (compatible!!) That doesn't seem to be a logical reason. HOW is it compatible, and why is it important to remain compatible in whatever respect it is compatible in? >> no difference in functionality between clicking and not-clicking > >Er, *IF* the drive handles being stepped backward past track zero >that is.. How does clicking prevent the drive from being stepped backward past track zero??? >> state, and I can't imagine anyone actually WANTING ther drives to >I dont *WANT* my drive to make that sound, but since it doesnt handle >stepping back past track (0 or 1?), turning 'noclick' on, makes a worse >noise, and may damage the drive! Again, WHY! >> make that annoying sound.. So why would Commodore go to all the >> trouble of including this feature and yet force people to ftp a prog- And why do Commodore drives require the click and why can't it be eliminated, as other companies' machines do no have or need it? [... rest, including what seemed to be a rude remark, deleted ...] >> | |\\\ milamber@caen.engin.umich.edu | shared by all of // | >Email: david@dogmelb.dog@munnari.oz | Division of Geomechanics, -- Chris Dailey dailey@(frith.egr|cpsin.cps).msu.edu BRD += DDR; DDR = NULL; num_countries --;
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (12/21/90)
In article <1990Dec20.211301.28307@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> dailey@buster.cps.msu.edu (Chris Dailey) writes: >>> question, why does trackdisk default to clicking? There seems to be >>Because that is what it has always been. (compatible!!) > >That doesn't seem to be a logical reason. HOW is it compatible, and why >is it important to remain compatible in whatever respect it is >compatible in? because older machines (pre-a3000's) do not all have drives with a track-0 disable on the step-out pulse. On drives without it, the head gets to 0, and then pounds against the stop if you use nockick. This a) makes a lot more noise than clicking, and b) can blow the alignment of the drive. Since (for various reasons) trackdisk is not conditionally compiled for different machines yet, we do not default to noclick. Distributing something that can physically damage a user's hardware if he sets it wrong is not a real good idea, so there is no "noclick" prefs at this time. >How does clicking prevent the drive from being stepped backward past >track zero??? the clicking is the drive stepping in and out alternately. Noclick type things always step out, and when they get to track 0 the track-0 detect stops it from stepping any more (if they have such a lockout). >And why do Commodore drives require the click and why can't it be >eliminated, as other companies' machines do no have or need it? Most other computers either a) don't notice disk insertions/removals, b) require the OS to do removal. Some others may specify drives that are 'noclick-safe', or have non-standard interfaces. Note that the reason for the click is because the disk insertion signal is gated by the step line when the drive is empty. Some controllers and drives may be able to use a separate signal to check for disk insertion instead of using STEP (which is the default). The Amiga doesn't have any unused port bits for this, nor do we specify that drives support this (I think). -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup The compiler runs Like a swift-flowing river I wait in silence. (From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (12/24/90)
In article <1990Dec20.211301.28307@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> dailey@buster.cps.msu.edu (Chris Dailey) writes: > And why do Commodore drives require the click and why can't it be > eliminated, as other companies' machines do no have or need it? It's a design flaw in the standard 3.5" interface. Apple doesn't have the problem because they don't use standard drives, and IBMs don't have the problem because they don't detect disk changes at all. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
proff@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au (Frederick Solidus) (12/31/90)
In <7357@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1990Dec20.211301.28307@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> dailey@buster.cps.msu.edu (Chris Dailey) writes: >> And why do Commodore drives require the click and why can't it be >> eliminated, as other companies' machines do no have or need it? >It's a design flaw in the standard 3.5" interface. Apple doesn't have the >problem because they don't use standard drives, and IBMs don't have >the problem because they don't detect disk changes at all. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. Still, I don't see why the read/writte status just carn't be scanned. That would inform if there was a disk change. - Proff -- The Mad Proffessor/The Force |In what distant deeps or skies "The Tiger" by W. Blake, stanza two - |Burnt the fire of thine eyes? SMART:proff@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au |On what wings dare he aspire? DUMB:...uunet!phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au!proff |What the hand dare seize the fire? -- The Mad Proffessor/The Force |In what distant deeps or skies "The Tiger" by W. Blake, stanza two - |Burnt the fire of thine eyes? SMART:proff@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au |On what wings dare he aspire? DUMB:...uunet!phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au!proff |What the hand dare seize the fire?
jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) (01/12/91)
In article <1990Dec31.091243.470@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au> proff@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au (Frederick Solidus) writes: >In <7357@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>It's a design flaw in the standard 3.5" interface. Apple doesn't have the >>problem because they don't use standard drives, and IBMs don't have >>the problem because they don't detect disk changes at all. > >Still, I don't see why the read/writte status just carn't be scanned. That >would inform if there was a disk change. The problem is in the way that the original floppy manufacturers decided to implement the "disk changed" signal. To quote the Amiga Hardware Manual: CHNG-(Pin #11) A selected drive will drive this signal low whenever its internal "disk change" latch is set. This latch is set when the drive is first powered on, or whenever there is not diskette in the drive. To reset the latch, the system must select the drive, and step the head. Of course, the latch will not reset if there is no diskette installed. [The signal is latched in case one floppy is removed and another one inserted while the Operating System was not looking at the disk drive. (These 3.5 inch drives were not designed specifically for the Amiga.) The WRPRO (write-protect) signal is not an accurate indicator of disk presence.] So, the Amiga can detect immediately when the floppy is removed. However, there is no signal from the disk drive that says when a new floppy is inserted. The only way to detect the presence of a floppy in the drive is step the heads to the next track and see if that operation has caused the CHNG signal to become de-asserted. -- Joe Smith (408)922-6220 | SMTP: jms@tardis.tymnet.com or jms@gemini.tymnet.com BT Tymnet Tech Services | UUCP: ...!{ames,pyramid}!oliveb!tymix!tardis!jms PO Box 49019, MS-C51 | BIX: smithjoe | CA license plate: "POPJ P," (PDP-10) San Jose, CA 95161-9019 | humorous dislaimer: "My Amiga 3000 speaks for me."