n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) (06/29/90)
Does anyone know why Hewlett-Packard has already introduced so many ROM versions in the 48 when the 28C had only two and the 28S one? Could it be possible that the omnipotent calculator gurus have attempted to do too much too soon? Based on the zealotry displayed by this news group it certainly would not seem possible! Or could it? After all, I'm just another pitiful electronic gadget junkie who is easily exploited by the marketing tactics utilized by corporate America. Perhaps I should also jump on the band wagon and begin worshipfully following the creators of this sacred tool who later get rich from writing after market user guides because the support literature that comes with the product is severely handicapped. There are still some of us who are capable of independent thought. Eventhough I am not categorically a vindictive Marxist, many in this world are, and should our society ever obtain class consciousness, I fear for what could happen to those individuals who engage in such unethical conduct. Please no comments from those narrowly focused individuals who have obtained special favor status with Hewlett-Packard, and whose unrestrained praise is far too often expressed in this news group. Hewlett-Packard should be aware that most people who have had to save and sacrifice to buy a high-end calculator, such as the 48, do not appreciate having to spend an extra $20 here and $50 there in order to take full advantage of the features for which it was marketed. I recently completed an engineering physics course in which the prof was visiting from Poland. He eluded that his salary in Poland with a Phd. in physics was $400 a month. Compare this with your six figure annual income.
taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick Taber) (06/29/90)
In article <6236@helios.TAMU.EDU>, n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) writes: > Path: ryn.esg.dec.com!shlump.nac.dec.com!decuac!haven!uflorida!uakari.primate. .wisc.edu!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!helios!tamunix!n023el > From: n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) > Newsgroups: comp.sys.handhelds > Subject: 48SX ROM Versions & SYSEVALs > Message-ID: <6236@helios.TAMU.EDU> > Date: 29 Jun 90 07:12:48 GMT > Sender: usenet@helios.TAMU.EDU > Organization: Texas A&M University > Lines: 29 > > Does anyone know why Hewlett-Packard has already introduced so many ROM > versions in the 48 when the 28C had only two and the 28S one? Could it > be possible that the omnipotent calculator gurus have attempted to do > too much too soon? > [ ...yadda, yada, yadda...] > Perhaps I should also > jump on the band wagon and begin worshipfully following the creators of > this sacred tool who later get rich from writing after market user guides > because the support literature that comes with the product is severely > handicapped. > Perhaps you should jump to the point. > There are still some of us who are capable of independent thought. [...yadda, yadda, yadda...] > Hewlett-Packard should be aware that most people who have had to save and > sacrifice to buy a high-end calculator, such as the 48, do not appreciate > having to spend an extra $20 here and $50 there in order to take full > advantage of the features for which it was marketed. > Is the message here that you need someone to explain the calculator in simpler terms than those used in the manual? What happened to the independent thought? So far, there has been precious little posted to this group that is not covered in the manuals as long as you understand that to use a tool you have to be smarter than the tool is. If you bought the calculator as a prosthetic device, then it's not going to meet your needs. > Please no comments from those narrowly focused individuals who have obtained > special favor status with Hewlett-Packard, and whose unrestrained praise is > far too often expressed in this news group. > I have no special status with HP, nor has HP every given me anything except my money's worth. >>>==>PStJTT Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber Copyright (c) 1990 Patrick Taber all rights reserved. This message may not be used by any law enforcement agency nor may it be used in any legal proceeding. That's the law.
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (06/30/90)
I remember when I was a math student, and money was hard to come by. I still thought nothing of earning $1000 and buying an HP-75C which gave me quite an education in itself. I also earned $2000 and bought a Macintosh in 1984 when they first came out, when I was still a student. Now that I am an engineer at a Real Life company, and I earn less than six figures I can assure you, I think that the HP-48SX is a very reasonable machine for the money. HP is not making lots of money on it either, I can assure you, as the cost for a team of software developers is not cheap like the hardware is. Before you go flaming the net and HP, get more education, get a job at a Real World company, and I think you will understand why things are the way they are. Not that they are the best, I grant you, but all things considered, the HP-48SX took a lot of individual committment from engineers that cared about making a great product. Dan Allen Apple Computer
n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) (06/30/90)
In article <1944@ryn.esg.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick Taber) writes: >> Does anyone know why Hewlett-Packard has already introduced so many ROM >> versions in the 48 when the 28C had only two and the 28S one? Could it >> be possible that the omnipotent calculator gurus have attempted to do >> too much too soon? >> [ ...yadda, yada, yadda...] >> Perhaps I should also >> jump on the band wagon and begin worshipfully following the creators of >> this sacred tool who later get rich from writing after market user guides >> because the support literature that comes with the product is severely >> handicapped. >Perhaps you should jump to the point. I did! Perhaps you should strive to increase your level of reading comprehension to that of a college graduate in order to alleviate the lack of understanding which you have so obviously demonstrated. >> There are still some of us who are capable of independent thought. >[...yadda, yadda, yadda...] >> Hewlett-Packard should be aware that most people who have had to save and >> sacrifice to buy a high-end calculator, such as the 48, do not appreciate >> having to spend an extra $20 here and $50 there in order to take full >> advantage of the features for which it was marketed. >Is the message here that you need someone to explain the calculator in >simpler terms than those used in manual? >What happened to the independent thought? Quite the contrary. Once again, you've failed to understand what you've read, and missed the point. Apparently it is your thought about which you should show concern. >> Please no comments from those narrowly focused individuals who have obtained >> special favor status with Hewlett-Packard, and whose unrestrained praise is >> far too often expressed in this news group. >I have no special status with HP, nor has HP every given me anything >except my money's worth. Based on what I've seen thus far, it would be highly unlikely that you would ever obtain such special status. However, I am glad that you feel good about the purchase price of your 48SX; they really are beautifully conceived. >Copyright (c) 1990 Patrick Taber all rights reserved. You really are out of your league. Maybe if you developed a finer command of the English language your copyright might seem more appropriate. Upon first reading your reply, I was quite embarrassed for you. There are many articulate individuals who do monitor this news group. >This message may not be used by any law enforcement agency nor may it be >used in any legal proceeding. That's the law. In consideration of everthing I have said so far, I find it incredulous that you should know anything about the law. I come from a family of many lawyers and I'm very aware of the multifaceted complexities involved in interpreting the law. I will not take the time to explain my original posting, as it was rhetorical, and only intended for a few individuals at Hewlett-Packard.
n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) (06/30/90)
In article <42507@apple.Apple.COM> dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: >I remember when I was a math student, and money was hard to come by. I >still thought nothing of earning $1000 and buying an HP-75C which gave >me quite an education in itself. I also earned $2000 and bought a >Macintosh in 1984 when they first came out, when I was still a student. I can easily identify with what you did because it describes my current situation. After all, I also proudly own a 48SX. >Now that I am an engineer at a Real Life company, and I earn less than >six figures I can assure you, I think that the HP-48SX is a very >reasonable machine for the money. HP is not making lots of money on it >either, I can assure you, as the cost for a team of software developers >is not cheap like the hardware is. > >Before you go flaming the net and HP, get more education, get a job at a >Real World company, and I think you will understand why things are the >way they are. Not that they are the best, I grant you, but all things >considered, the HP-48SX took a lot of individual committment from >engineers that cared about making a great product. > >Dan Allen >Apple Computer I am well aware of the immense cost of developing high tech products such as the 48SX, and in view of the positive tone of your response, I feel a proper explanation is due. The point of concern I was addressing was the seemingly unethical practice of allowing design team members who are priviledged to inside information to profit from the sell of after market user reference guides which they write. Why were their efforts not fully utilized during the time when the 48's accompanying reference material was undergoing preperation? You will have to admit that the reference material with which the 48SX comes is poorly indexed, and inundated with mistakes. One might go so far as to say Hewlett-Packard is unwittingly encouraging carelessness in this area by allowing employees to publish. The bottom line is that the need for after market support material could have been completely unnecessary had Hewlett-Packard taken the time and care to do it right.
dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) (07/01/90)
In article <6261@helios.TAMU.EDU> n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) writes: >In article <42507@apple.Apple.COM> dan@Apple.COM (Dan Allen) writes: >>I remember when I was a math student, and money was hard to come by. I >The point of concern I was addressing was the seemingly unethical practice >of allowing design team members who are priviledged to inside information >to profit from the sell of after market user reference guides which they >write. > >Why were their efforts not fully utilized during the time when the 48's >accompanying reference material was undergoing preperation? > >You will have to admit that the reference material with which the 48SX >comes is poorly indexed, and inundated with mistakes. One might go so >far as to say Hewlett-Packard is unwittingly encouraging carelessness >in this area by allowing employees to publish. > >The bottom line is that the need for after market support material could >have been completely unnecessary had Hewlett-Packard taken the time and >care to do it right. I do not think it is an unethical practice to allow design team members to sell after market anything: these are usually the finest products because the design team tembers know more than anyone else. The reference material could be improved, yes, perhaps, but if HP is anything like Apple, the people who write the manuals are writers, not engineers. They usually only understand what the engineers tell them. However, if the engineers are busy doing the actual engineering full time, as you allude to above ("efforts not fully utilized"), then there is no time to talk to and educate the publications/documentation people, therefore poor docs come about. It is a hard problem: should there be more and better ROM code in the 48, or should there be less code and sparse documentation rather than perfect docs? Well, HP opted for rather sparse docs at first, and there is to be a more in depth manual for programmers later this year. (Perhaps the engineers finally got the chance to talk to and educate the documentation people...) I do not have Jim Donnally's book--yet--but I am sure that I will like it. He probably did most of his work on the book since his stuff was done, and I am sure he did it on his own time. I did a similar thing here at Apple: no one wrote the book about programming the Macintosh that I thought should be written, including Apple's "official" publications, so I wrote my own book entitled "On Macintosh Programming", also published by Addison-Wesley. Many people have said that they really have learned from this book. If I had not written the book, many of things in the book would never have been known on the outside world Dan Allen Apple Computer
bqt@cia (Johnny Billquist) (07/02/90)
In article <6261@helios.TAMU.EDU>, n023el@tamunix (Robert Ellis) writes: >[lost of stuff deleted...] >The point of concern I was addressing was the seemingly unethical practice >of allowing design team members who are priviledged to inside information >to profit from the sell of after market user reference guides which they >write. > >Why were their efforts not fully utilized during the time when the 48's >accompanying reference material was undergoing preperation? They could have, with the result of a later release of the machine, and for more $$$, since manuals don't come for free either. >You will have to admit that the reference material with which the 48SX >comes is poorly indexed, and inundated with mistakes. One might go so >far as to say Hewlett-Packard is unwittingly encouraging carelessness >in this area by allowing employees to publish. The case of bad manuals (if that's the case (I don't own a 48 myself)) is sad, but not uncommon. However, the line between bad and good manuals also depend on what you want from the manual. The normal user, and a hacker definitely don't want the same things in a manual, and the hardware hacker want still something else. >The bottom line is that the need for after market support material could >have been completely unnecessary had Hewlett-Packard taken the time and >care to do it right. Not true. There always rise a demand for more info as time goes by. You can never put everything in the first manual, as many things that people want to know come appearant only after years of use. And even the manuals that HP produce isn't always good enough, since they have certain policys about what to publish, which doesn't bind other people. What I'm thinking of can be exemplified by the synthetic programming techniques on the HP-41. HP never wrote any official manuals on that, but many other people did, including Bill Wickes (I'm not sure about the spelling, but he is on this newsgroup), who later became an HP emplyee. The fact is that HP might not feel it worth putting the money into writing all those manuals either, since they might feel that they won't get the money they put into the effort paid back. There might be a lot of resons why HP choose not to publish stuff. But I'm glad that they allow their employees to publish such stuff anyway. If those employees want to put their effort, time and knowledge to that use, why not? It benefits the users, not HP. And, those who write those manuals. I sure don't mind if they make money on it. Why do you think they will do it? Partially for the money, certainly. (At least I would). ====================================================================== Everybody know that the DECstation - I'm on a bus is a pdp8, which is a RISC, but - on a psychodelic trip, where did MIPS computers get into it? - reading murder books - and tryin' to stay hip. - Johnny Billquist - Billy Idol D89.JOHNNY-BILLQUIST@CARMEN.DOCS.UU.SE ======================================================================
tim@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Timothy Jones) (07/03/90)
Speaking of... I'm considering getting a 48sx. What command can I use to display the ROM level of one of these, so I can make sure I'm buying one with the latest revision? What is the latest ROM level? Thanks! Tim ======================================================================== Timothy Jones, Columbia University tim@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 612 W. 115th St. #803, NYC, NY, 10025 ...!rutgers!columbia!cunixf!tim (212) 854-8551 tim@cunixf.bitnet
richard@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Richard Artz) (07/06/90)
Hi Robert, Didn't you post this same message last month? Richard Artz / N0LZR / 303-229-2036 / richard@hpfcww.fc.hp.com