zimmer@calvin.tmc.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) (09/21/90)
DISCLAIMER: Currently I am a little upset with HP, so some of my comments might be biased. I purchased an HP48sx a couple of months ago to play around with. I was quite impressed with all of the features of the calculator, and just had to have a calculator that actually supported the kermit protocol. Anyway, my question is, "How do people actually use this type of calculator/ computer?" So far, a lot ot the messages on the net have been for such things as appointment books, phone numbers, games (tetris, brix, music) and for hacking (sass, sad, and the processor notes). It would seem to me that some of the laptop computers would be better suited for these types of applications. Currently, a machine like the Atari Portfollio is about the same price but is larger. On the other hand, you can get the same size if you want to pay big bucks. (ie the Poquet and the TI-78 are both about $1500). Another example would be the Radio-Shack laptop for about $800. Each of these would allow you to have games, databases, calculator functions, programability, and the opportunity to play with machine language. With the addition of a program like MathCad, you add graphing and unit management to you laptop. Laptops also have the advantage of more memory, and usually a disk device. A calculator on the other hand has certain advantages also. It is usually easier to enter numbers on a calculator keyboard, and the smaller size is usually an advantage. On the other hand, the calculator keyboard can also be a disadvantage. I would much prefer a typewriter keyboard for entering units or for entering formulas. The screens on calculators also tend to be smaller then laptops. Don't get me wrong, I still like calculators for balancing my checkbook, and for doing base conversions, but I don't need the power of a 41 or 48sx to do either of those functions. (I very rarely do polar to rectangular conversions when balancing my check book, and I bought a Casio to do base conversions because it takes less keystrokes.) As for programming, when I prefer to use a language that I can understand rather the RPL, so it is easier to do on a laptop.) During my collage years, we didn't have cheap computers so calculators like the HP-41 was a God-sent, but in todays market, wouldn't almost be better to have a laptop? As for taking tests, if you allow an HP48sx, you almost have to allow the use of a laptop. Both tend to have similar capabilities. So, what do people really use these things for? Andrew zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu
bson@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Jan Brittenson) (09/21/90)
In article <1049@helens.Stanford.EDU> zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) writes: > I purchased an HP48sx a couple of months ago to play around with. > Anyway, my question is, "How do people actually use this type of > calculator/computer?" I got my 48 for several reasons. The major is that differentiation is such a menial and boring task, and that the calculator does differentiation and a couple of COLCTs in no time. QUAD, the solver, and matrices are most handy as well. I'm surprised the 48 can't cope with symbolic integration as well, a fair-sized form table and substitution can take you quite far, certainly it's not much more difficult to code substitution or integratiion in parts than chain rule differentiation. The nontrivial cases will always have to be done by hand, anyway. This leads me to a question I'd like to post. It might help answer your question. I just wrote the following simple program to see how feasible it would be to let the calculator handle L'Hopital's rule: << { '&A/&B' 'dX(&A)/dX(&B)' } vMATCH << EVAL COLCT >> IFT >> (slightly modified from my test, but it should work fine) 'd' above refers to the delta character. Now, what I'd like is: - A means of supplying the variable of differentiation ('X' above) as an argument without having to resort to constructing algebraics using strings. I.e. something similar to 'd&S(&A)/d&S(&B)' (see above) where S is a local symbol bound to a name. - A means of telling whether an expression is indeterminable. What can be done, is replacing '&X/&Y' with '&X=&Y', splitting it up with EQ->, separately evaluate the numerator and denominator, and checking for 0/0, inf/inf, 0*inf, etc, where 'inf' would indicate an infinite-result error. A simple solution on HP's behalf would have been to let 0 0 / return the algebraic '0/0', and 1 0 / the name 'n7' (or some other predefined special number) to indicate an infinite result. Only in Symbolic mode, and by EVAL, naturally. (To those not familiar with L'Hopital's rule, the differentiation is to be repeated until the expression takes a determinable form, which is the limit.)
davisp@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Palmer Davis) (09/22/90)
In a previous article, zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) writes: >Anyway, my question is, "How do people actually use this type of calculator/ >computer?" So far, a lot ot the messages on the net have been for such >things as appointment books, phone numbers, games (tetris, brix, music) >and for hacking (sass, sad, and the processor notes). Those are exactly the sorts of things I use my 48sx for. The 48 reminds me quite a bit of the way things were ten years ago when most desktop PC's were tiny little 8-bit machines with a few tens of K of RAM available and maybe a floppy drive. Getting small things (like some useful utility or maybe a game with some new innovative feature) done on little machines like that was quite a challenge -- and at the same time, there was quite a bit of entertainment value in it. The fact that my previous calculator happened to break at an inopportune moment helped me rationalize my decision to purchase a 48sx (as did the fact that it makes hamburger helper out of my Physics homework), but my real reason for getting one was the idea of having a system with actually more horsepower than my first desktop unit had, that was sufficiently portable that I could throw it in my backpack and have it available to be played with and hacked upon whenever I felt like. Sort of a "Game Boy for hackers." What I've found, however, is that there are a lot of little jobs that the 48sx can for which it's actually more convienient to do them on the 48sx. You mentioned datebooks and telephone directories -- these are the sorts of little things that they used to advertise that you could do on a computer ten years ago that nobody ever actually used because it was more work to type them into the computer than to do them by hand. (Has anyone here ever actually balanced a checkbook with their home computer?) And half the time for things like datebooks, you'd frequently need to have the information along with you so it did little good to leave it sitting on a disk back home. I used to have a collection of little scraps of paper and outdated business cards in my wallet with all sorts of random reminders and people's phone numbers. All that's in my 48sx now... it's actually useful to me there because I actually *have* my 48sx with me whenever I might need to get the information back out (i.e. in a phone booth in the middle of the night). And, beyond all that, it *is* awfully good at being a calculator.... >It would seem to me that some of the laptop computers would be better >suited for these types of applications. . . . >Laptops also have the >advantage of more memory, and usually a disk device. For me, the big advantage of a 48sx instead of a laptop is convenience. The 48sx is small enough that I can throw it into my backpack or even the front pocket of my sweatshirt and always have it with me, and it's handy enough that I can pull it out to jot something down. It's small enough that I can set it down on one of those little armrest thingies they have in lecture halls and still have room to take notes while using it. Laptops have certainly gotten lighter, but not to the point that I could see myself lugging one around wherever I go like I do my 48sx. The Poquet is a different story; if it were cheaper and had software that was as relevant to what I'm doing right now built in like the 48sx does, I very well might have gotten one instead. I'm eagerly awaiting the "notepad" machines several companies are working on; I'm sure they'll be hideously expensive at first, but once the technology matures, those will be really nifty. I can see where you're coming from about laptops being more powerful, but at the moment, I really don't have any tasks that a laptop could do that my 48sx can't. I'm not trying to write papers on my 48sx... I let my desktop machine with LaTeX and GNU Emacs take care of that. I wouldn't take notes on a laptop; I can scribble down diagrams on paper more efficiently than I could attempt to type in a description of what's being written on the board. (A notepad computer would be the ideal solution here.) About the only thing that it would be nice to have a laptop for would be to have a C compiler available during programming tests (or in class to try things out), but they wouldn't let me use one anyway. I *can*, however, take my 48sx into my math and physics tests with no problem.... :-) I'm rather surprised that HP hasn't tried to market the 48sx more agressively as a low-end PC rather than a high-end calculator. That's why I bought one, and that's the reason why most of my friends might be interested in the 48sx themselves. I'm certainly not going to recommend the 48sx to them after the way Hewlett-Packard has treated those of us who bought early (and I'm certainly going to think twice the next time I consider buying anything from HP), but I'm rather enjoying rediscovering the uses of small machines. And it's nice being able to have the whole system with me all the time. Yes, it's a toy sometimes, but it also does useful work. After all, what good is a laptop if you leave it at home? -- PTD -- -- Palmer T. Davis | davisp@scl.cwru.edu -OR- ptd2@po.cwru.edu Case Western Reserve University | {att,sun,decvax,uunet}!cwjcc!skybridge!davisp ------------------------------------------------------+------------------------ Wake up and smell the cat food in your bank account. | Life is short.
dove@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Ray Rischpater) (09/22/90)
In article <1049@helens.Stanford.EDU> zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) writes: > >DISCLAIMER: Currently I am a little upset with HP, so some of my comments >might be biased. > >I purchased an HP48sx a couple of months ago to play around with. I was >quite impressed with all of the features of the calculator, and just had >to have a calculator that actually supported the kermit protocol. > >Anyway, my question is, "How do people actually use this type of calculator/ >computer?" So far, a lot ot the messages on the net have been for such >things as appointment books, phone numbers, games (tetris, brix, music) >and for hacking (sass, sad, and the processor notes). Granted I use my 48sx as a phone book, calendar, and as a portable geek pacifier (sorry, folks. No offense intended... :) ), I also find its plotting and programmability very nice for school and "what if?" questions. One of the things I loved about my 28S was the ability to pull it out talking with other people and actually numerically explore a problem. I can keep my 28s or 48sx in my backpack to do that, and the programming language is designed for it. I'd have to be a lot stronger to haul a Toshiba laptop around, and coding the sort of thing off-the-cuff that I do (fractal generation, testing a weird series for convergence, etc.) would take either a lot more time or a lot better library. > [ List of possible laptops & comments deleted.] > >Each of these would allow you to have games, databases, calculator >functions, programability, and the opportunity to play with machine >language. With the addition of a program like MathCad, you add >graphing and unit management to you laptop. Laptops also have the >advantage of more memory, and usually a disk device. Weight. I don't want to haul around a laptop. Cost. I could (barely) afford an HP48sx. I can't offord a laptop. Replacability/desirability of theft. A laptop grabs attention at a univerity, while at least my calculator looks like a normal calculator from across the lab. And I can put it in my pocket or bag surriptuously, if I want, and not call attention to the fact that I've got something worth big bucks here. And if it >does< get stolen, I'm closer to being able to cough up three or four hundred dollars as opposed to a thousand. User interface consistency. This one's shaky, at best. I >know< the HP interface pretty well. I can write a program without really being concious of it. I'd have to learn MathCad or it's clone, buckle down and learn other applications. > >A calculator on the other hand has certain advantages also. It is usually >easier to enter numbers on a calculator keyboard, and the smaller size >is usually an advantage. On the other hand, the calculator keyboard can >also be a disadvantage. I would much prefer a typewriter keyboard for >entering units or for entering formulas. The screens on calculators also >tend to be smaller then laptops. > All of this is true -- although I don't really have a problem with the SX screen size for anything except for programming large applications, and that's why I have a serial cable. (Ditto for the non-querty keyboard.) A lot of laptops have what seem to be to me cramped keyboards, too. >Don't get me wrong, I still like calculators for balancing my checkbook, >and for doing base conversions, but I don't need the power of a 41 or >48sx to do either of those functions. (I very rarely do polar to >rectangular conversions when balancing my check book, and I bought a >Casio to do base conversions because it takes less keystrokes.) As for >programming, when I prefer to use a language that I can understand rather >the RPL, so it is easier to do on a laptop.) During my collage years, we >didn't have cheap computers so calculators like the HP-41 was a God-sent, >but in todays market, wouldn't almost be better to have a laptop? >As for taking tests, if you allow an HP48sx, you almost have to allow the >use of a laptop. Both tend to have similar capabilities. > A laptop doesn't have the capabilities a SX does, >without< software. I don't think that an SX belongs on the average undergrad test. The solver, yes -- with NO equations. Hopefully, all of us at the college level can do basic arithemetic and algebra, so the solver just cuts down painful errors and time. But I think a solver card, integration, etc. is unnecessary in the classroom. As a "what-if?" tool in lab? Definitely. >So, what do people really use these things for? > >zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu Almost anything from balancing my checkbook to a small notebook to solving bizarre chemistry questions. I like how easy it makes the math behind real-world problems. And I like the convenience of the solver card for what-if questions I find in the world around me. I think that an SX, solver card, and printer would be an ideal gift for any realistic sci-fi writer. -- -- dove@ucscg.ucsc.edu Ray Rischpater -- dove@ucscb.ucsc.edu (408) 426-0716 --As usual, all of the opinions contained herein are my own...
mat431010110@stat.appstate.edu (09/22/90)
In a previous article, Pamr Davis writes > ..... I'm not trying to write papers on my 48sx... I let my desktop machine > with LaTeX and GNU Emacs take care of that. I wouldn't take notes on a > laptop; > I *can*, however, take my 48sx into my math and > physics tests with no problem.... :-) I use a 28s instead of a 48sx (only cause I can't afford a 48 yet), and I agree entirely. When people ask me why I didn't just save my money for a laptop, I like to point out that: 1) The cheapset laptop is much more expensive than the 28 or the 48 2) To get the math power contained in that little calculator, you'd have to spend another few hundred dollars to get a program like Maple, Derive, Mathematica, or something similar. 3) As pointed out before, you can't generally take a laptop into a test with you. You are not just buying a calcultor - you are buying a complex mathematical software package as well!
taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) (09/24/90)
In article <1049@helens.Stanford.EDU>, zimmer@calvin.tmc.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) writes: |>DISCLAIMER: Currently I am a little upset with HP, so some of my comments |>might be biased. |> Why are you upset at HP? Surely not because of the '48? |>I purchased an HP48sx a couple of months ago to play around with. I was |>quite impressed with all of the features of the calculator, and just had |>to have a calculator that actually supported the kermit protocol. |> And so you got exactly what you wanted. It sounds a little bit like you bought it more as a fashion accessory than as a calculator, but that's what democracy is all about -- you can buy what you want for whatever reasons you want. It sounds like, after playing around and running Kermit, you were left in the position of "I have this great solution -- where can I find a problem?" And that will certainly lead to discontent. While everyone in this newsgroup can appreciate calculators for their own sake, just as carpenters would appreciate a beautiful new hammer, for any tool to be useful, you have to have a need for what the tool does. The HP48 is first and foremost a calculator. It is not an entertainment device. It's not an electronic address book. It's not a PC. It *can* take on aspects of all these things, but it's design was not centered on those applications. So it shouldn't be a surprise that it's not as good at those things as something that was designed for that application. Neither does a Nintendo do a good job of calculating with complex numbers. Different jobs, different tools. -- >>>==>PStJTT Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber My employer doesn't care what I think. I, in turn, don't care what you think. You probably don't care what my empolyer thinks. Thus is life a circle.
zimmer@calvin.tmc.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) (09/26/90)
Thanks for the interesting replies to my original question of what people
were doing with their hp48sx's. Most of the responses were positive and
answered my question. Most replied that it was easier to carry, cheaper,
and many people mentioned the matrix operations.
However, whenever anyone asks such a question, you get responses from
HP zealots, so to answer a few of the questions.
1. Why are you upset at HP? Surely not because of the '48?
I only mentioned that I was upset with HP so that people would
know that in advance. I brought up the question as a philosophical issue,
not to bash HP. In that light, I did not want people to think that I
had a hidden agenda. So, I pointed out my bias right away. Why I am
upset with them was not the point of the posting, so I did not mention
the reason.
2. It sounds like, after playing around and running Kermit, you were left
in the position of "I have this great solution -- where can I find a
problem?"
No, I bought a hp48sx for a number of reasons, the foremost was to replace
an aging HP41C (note the absence of an X or V). I did buy the hp48sx
because of the serial connector. Being able to upload and download
programs is a big plus. I very seldom programmed the 41 because I didn't
have a card reader for it.
3. The HP48 is first and foremost a calculator. It is not an
entertainment device.
This by the way is the main point of my posting. Some of the respondents
did think that the 48 was an entertainment device. Others mentioned
that is does a great job as an address book, etc because it is always
with them. As one person put it, "When I think of a calculator, I
think of an HP-41C." I tend to agree, the hp48 is a lot more then
just a calculator, that is why I put it in the same class as a laptop
computer.
Anyway, thanks for all of the constructive responses.
Andrew
zimmer@calvin.stanford.eduzaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) (09/28/90)
>> ..... I'm not trying to write papers on my 48sx... I let my desktop machine >> with LaTeX and GNU Emacs take care of that. I wouldn't take notes on a >> laptop; I'd like to comment on this from the opposite direction: If the current generation of HP's had come out with QWERTY keyboards and 40x8 displays, I would have bought one. I often want to jot down notes which, ideally, would consist of changes or additions to files which may be a couple of pages long, that is, just big enough to want a "real" editor. Obviously I'm going to transfer it to a bigger machine later, but the bigger machine doesn't fit in my pocket. The Casio BOSS has the editor (well, almost), but it's not programmable. The HP's are programmable, but I can't imagine using one for "real" text. So I bought an Atari Portfolio-- which isn't much of a calculator, so if I were still crunching a lot of numbers, I'd have to carry two machines. Perhaps HP could make the keyboard switchable between "Calculator" and "QWERTY", for fast entry of either type of data (note this implies more than an embedded keypad). ================== zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!zaphod
zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) (09/29/90)
In Article <1990Sep24.082943@ultnix.enet.dec.com>, taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes: >.....................The HP48 is first and foremost a calculator. It is not an >entertainment device. It's not an electronic address book. It's not a PC. It >*can* take on aspects of all these things, but it's design was not centered on >those applications. So it shouldn't be a surprise that it's not as good at >those things as something that was designed for that application. Neither does >a Nintendo do a good job of calculating with complex numbers. Different jobs, >different tools. The differences between those applications is not all that great-- it's mostly in the software. With some small hardware changes (larger display and changing the keyboard from vertical to horizontal so you could remap it as QWERTY), the HP's could do all of those things equally well, without detracting from their original purpose. HP could do the software for the calculator and let others do the software for the other applications. I think the main reason that most computers make lousy calculators is that they don't have keycaps with labels like "SQRT" or "Pol->Rec", and they don't have software from Hewlett-Packard (and most of them don't fit in your pocket, but that's changing). ================== zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!zaphod
darrylo@hpnmdla.HP.COM (Darryl Okahata) (09/30/90)
In comp.sys.handhelds, zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) writes: > I'd like to comment on this from the opposite direction: If > the current generation of HP's had come out with QWERTY keyboards > and 40x8 displays, I would have bought one. I often want to jot > down notes which, ideally, would consist of changes or additions > to files which may be a couple of pages long, that is, just big > enough to want a "real" editor. Obviously I'm going to transfer > it to a bigger machine later, but the bigger machine doesn't fit > in my pocket. [ First of all, I'd like to say that, while I do work for HP, I do not work for the HP division that makes calculators. I'm an only stating a personal opinion in the following. ] How many people actually use small handhelds for note taking? A while back, I bought a Casio SF-8000, a small appointment/calendar/memo calculator that has a "chicklet-style" QWERTY keyboard (i.e., it does *not* have a membrane keyboard). After using it, I've come to the following conclusion: while it is a very nice calendar and telephone book, touch typing on the keyboard is next to impossible, and this makes it *VERY* difficult to take down any note in a reasonable amount of time. As touch typing is next to impossible, typing in a note using the "hunt'n peck" technique is very, very frustrating. The above also applies to the HP-48SX; entering any significant amount of text (e.g., "meet XXXX for YYY") is difficult. Let's face it: with today's technology, efficient note-taking can only be accomplished using a full-size keyboard, and having such a keyboard negates a fair amount of "portability". The current batch of "notebook PC laptops" are probably quite effective as note-takers, although they probably lack in number-crunching (very $$$). The best input device for a portable memotaker/calendar/calculator would be something that used either handwriting or speech recognition. -- Darryl Okahata UUCP: {hplabs!, hpcea!, hpfcla!} hpnmd!darrylo Internet: darrylo%hpnmd@hp-sde.sde.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion or policy of Hewlett-Packard or of the little green men that have been following him all day.
zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) (10/06/90)
In Article <1570009@hpnmdla.HP.COM>, darrylo@hpnmdla.HP.COM (Darryl Okahata) writes: > How many people actually use small handhelds for note taking?... >...... As touch typing is next to impossible, typing in a note using the >"hunt'n peck" technique is very, very frustrating. There is a middle ground between touch-typing and "hunt-and-peck". I don't have to "hunt" because I know where all the keys are, but I don't try to use all 10 fingers on the tiny keyboard. Granted, I'm slower than a touch-typist on a full-sized keyboard, but I can still type faster than I can write longhand (and I don't have to search for the scrap of paper and transcribe it afterward). ANY computer is better than no computer, and I can't carry a full-sized laptop everywhere. I've noticed that some touch-typists can't seem to imagine typing any other way, but for some of us, it's worth it. ================== zaphod@madnix.UUCP (Ron Bean) {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!zaphod