Jake-S@cup.portal.com (Jake G Schwartz) (01/17/91)
Hi folks - Ever heard that sometimes people are most creative when they're dreaming or daydreaming? I had this crazy one last night about adding the touch- screen plastic clear rectangle from the Sharp Wizard over top of an HP48 LCD display, and connecting the touchscreen overlay electronics to the HP48 serial port. In past years, calculator "tinkerers" have dissected handheld devices, such as HP toys andhings like the TI Speak and Spell back in 1978. I wonder if anyone had the guts to disassemble a Sharp Wizard to see if that clear plastic touch-overlay and its electronics couldn't be lifted and used as an independent device.... Over top of the HP48 LCD, it would open up all kinds of options that perhaps the Corvallis folks are only day- dreaming about at the moment. Imagine being able to simply touch one of those six bottom-line soft key menu labels and getting the function to execute. The sky's the limit. Do we have any takers? Jake Schwartz
akcs.dnickel@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Derek S. Nickel) (01/19/91)
What I want to see is an EL (ElectroLuminescent) display for the HP 48SX.
1024 x 864 would be fine.
Derek S. Nickelfrank@grep.co.uk (Frank Wales) (01/19/91)
In article <38125@cup.portal.com> Jake-S@cup.portal.com (Jake G Schwartz) writes: >Over top of the HP48 LCD, it would open >up all kinds of options that perhaps the Corvallis folks are only day- >dreaming about at the moment. Imagine being able to simply touch one of >those six bottom-line soft key menu labels and getting the function to >execute. The sky's the limit. Do we have any takers? I think it would be cute to make it work. However, I have to say that I dislike the idea of a touch-sensitive LCD for several reasons: poor tactile feedback, the temporary obscuring of the display necessary to operate it, the low resolution of the interface due to finger dimensions, and the need to clean the display often due to build-up of finger grease (or worse, dependent on where you put your fingers :-) ), necessitating disabling of the touch-sensitivity while you do it. I'm assuming that mechanical problems, like people hitting the display like they hit keys, or poking at it with the end of a pen, would be dealt with in a production machine, as would problems like fast typing and roll-over. Touch-screens tend to be of most use in running the interface to a well-defined system with relatively few allowed combinations of the components of the system, and where the number of choices at each stage in the interaction are small (i.e., fit on the screen). They also turn up where having a normal keyboard is not desired, for whatever reasons. Consequently, I'm unconvinced that a touch-screen would buy you anything when the User has more than a slight familiarity in using the equipment. [But I still think it would be a neat hack!] -- Frank Wales, Grep Limited, [frank@grep.co.uk<->uunet!grep!frank] Kirkfields Business Centre, Kirk Lane, LEEDS, UK, LS19 7LX. (+44) 532 500303
akcs.scotty@hpcvbbs.UUCP (SCOTTY THOMPSON) (01/20/91)
Well, it should keep you all busy if you want to make a touch-screen for this HP48SX, but it's just as easy to hit the softkey as it is to press the screen. Besides, who wants fingerprints all over the 48? Yeach! I keep my calc VERY clean, thank you... I agree with Derek, 1024x864 would be incredible. Let's also see if the folks at TI can shrink an entire TIGA 34020 board into the real-estate of the 48!!! (Oh, God, please, please, please?!). Bye... Scotty.
akcs.falco@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Andrey Dolgachev) (01/20/91)
Is it just me or is this getting a little wierd? Isn't it enough that
we're playing tetris, managing our lives and file-servers, calling
boards, downloading 3-d drawing programs, etc. for a CALCULATOR?! I
mean, really, I'm still impressed with everything that I can do with my
48sx. I mean, come-on, get a grip! I can just see it now, a 48 with a
color, super vga, touch-screen, math co-, etc. with a battery which lasts
for one hour.
--Just a sense of perspective
--Falco
--(Of course, I wouldn't mind a graphics accelerator card, but that's
beside the point)--------akcs.joehorn@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Joseph K. Horn) (01/20/91)
Andrey Dolgachev says "Isn't it enough that we're playing tetris...". No, Andrey, it isn't! Back in the 70's there was a club called PPC (which stood for something like Programmable Pocket Calculator) whose members were always writing programs that pushed their machines and imaginations far beyond the limits of reason, much to the dismay of "practical" people. But every few years, HP would release a new and wonderful new ppc which had AS BUILT IN FEATURES the kinds of things we'd been forcing previous machines to do. Let's allow the engineers to spend their precious time and talents developing the machines of the future whose features can be written by us, the enthusiastic users. A message very much like yours appeared almost 15 years ago in the PPC Journal, to the effect that adding alphanumeric capability to a calculator would be a silly waste of ROM space. Even if our dreams do not come true in a year or two, it's fun to dream... -- Joseph K. Horn -- (714) 858-0920 -- Peripheral Vision, Ltd. --
akcs.falco@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Andrey Dolgachev) (01/21/91)
Now, seriosly, Joseph, there's a difference between programs like Tetris,
adding memory, alphanumerics, etc. and things like math co-processors,
touch-screens for a calculator with such a small screen etc. Of couse,
there's nothing wrong with dreaming about huge advances, and they
probably will happen sometime, but my point was just to put some reality
into the picture.
---FalcoJake-S@cup.portal.com (Jake G Schwartz) (01/21/91)
Scotty Thompson writes: > Well, it should keep you all busy if you want to make a touch-screen for > this HP48SX, but it's just as easy to hit the softkey as it is to press > the screen. Besides, who wants fingerprints all over the 48? Yeach! > I keep my calc VERY clean, thank you... The touch screen replacing the top row of keys was just a tangible example of what would be possible. I am personally frustrated by a custom menu which only identifies six key definitions at one time. Why not have multiple rows of definitions? Why can't we see the entire OBJ or CTRL or other menus AT ONE TIME, thus preventing the need for NEXT and PREV menu keys? I want them all in front of me at a glance. This would translate into fewer keystrokes and more ease of use. (Of course other considerations come up, but again, this is another example of the possibilities with a touchscreen.) Andrey Dolgachev writes: > Is it just me or is this getting a little wierd? Isn't it enough that > we're playing tetris, managing our lives and file-servers, calling > boards, downloading 3-d drawing programs, etc. for a CALCULATOR?! I > mean, really, I'm still impressed with everything that I can do with my > 48sx. I am also very impressed with what this machine can do. But that doesn't stop me from attempting to "peel back the onion" a layer at a time and delve into the RPL internals and machine code with help from the pioneers (Alonzo, Rick, Jim, Bill, Jan, Derek,etc). I haven't gotten into playing games with my machine like some of the others, but I have tried to make the unit do things that weren't designed in, like adding full HP16C capability. One thing that stifles some of these possibilities is not being able to design my own keyboard a la Macintosh Hypercard. I'd like my keys to be wherever I want them, as big and small as I want and labelled with whatever I wish to put on them. A touchscreen would solve many of these problems (and not without adding some other ones like dirty screens, lack of adequate tactile feedback, etc.) in my opinion. I know I can throw a keyboard overlay onto my machine each time I wish to change the "mode" into a custom-designed unit, but this isn't as convenient. To Joe Horn - Thanks for telling some of the folks here about "ancient calculator history", when wish lists were the norm. If we don't ask for new things or speculate what is possible, then the designers at the factory in Corvallis will do that for us. How can they know what is desired if we don't suggest things? On the other hand, if Bill Wickes and his team didn't ask themselves what *they'd* like to see in the next machine and operating system back in 1985, where would we be today? Probably using our HP41's or frustrated with what the Japanese products cannot quite do properly. In spite of all the flack the HP folks have gotten over their recent television and magazine ads, we must assist them in continually asking "What If?". Jake Schwartz
akcs.kevin@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Kevin Jessup) (01/22/91)
I have been an HP calculator fanatic since I first turned on my old HP-55! I am curious about the direction handheld will take as PC's become smaller and more affordable. When a notebook PC weighs in at 2 or 3 lbs, has a color VGA LCD or better and bosts an internal modem, 33 Mhz 486 with a math coprocessor and 10 megabytes, who will be buying calculators? I am assuming of course, that this is quite a few years down the road and will cost less than $1000.
akcs.falco@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Andrey Dolgachev) (01/23/91)
Gee, guys, when I said that I thought that some of the discussions about
touch-screens, math co-s, etc. was wierd, I didn't mean to sound like a
retro-grouch. Anyways, I don't mind discussions of advances, I just
wanted to focus into a more practical matter. Well, anyways, Jake
Schwartz makes a good point when he talks about a Hypercard-like keyboard
with keys that can be whatever shape and location we wish. I think that
an interesting idea would be, not to put a touch-screen on such a small
screen, but to make a seperate tablet with functions and menu commands on
it. This would be like the Wiz for the Mac, with common functions and
commands available as templates for your graphics tablet. The problem
with this, of course is that it would be too large for handheld use, even
if it was significantly minituarized. A touch-sceen would be better for
a more graphics-oriented sytem than the HP currently is. The problem
with the 48 is that there are as many, if not more commands than a
standard computer program, without the large screen and graphical
interface. Anybody have ideas on how to make real menus, aka Windows or
Mac for the HP (w/o using a lot of space)?
----Falcojpser@cup.portal.com (John Paul Serafin) (01/24/91)
akcs.falco@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Andrey Dolgachev) writes: >... Jake >Schwartz makes a good point when he talks about a Hypercard-like keyboard >with keys that can be whatever shape and location we wish. I think that >an interesting idea would be, not to put a touch-screen on such a small >screen, but to make a seperate tablet with functions and menu commands on >it. This would be like the Wiz for the Mac, with common functions and >commands available as templates for your graphics tablet. The problem >with this, of course is that it would be too large for handheld use, even >if it was significantly minituarized. A touch-sceen would be better for >a more graphics-oriented sytem than the HP currently is. The problem >with the 48 is that there are as many, if not more commands than a >standard computer program, without the large screen and graphical >interface. Anybody have ideas on how to make real menus, aka Windows or >Mac for the HP (w/o using a lot of space)? > ----Falco This is more along the lines of a future calculator, but ... I've always thought it would be nice if keycaps were displays. The small size would allow much better contrast for LCD's, there would be a menu selection for every key, and the entire main display would be available for other uses. ALL key labeling could be done this way, allowing more or larger keys, since the space between them wouldn't be needed for labels. The displays could change whenever a shift key is pressed. Alternatively, the label area above each key could be a display. This would take care of the finger print problem, perhaps at the cost of reducing the density of keys. I suspect this idea has come up before, but I can't recall a reference. John Serafin jpser@cup.portal.com
conte@crest.crhc.uiuc.edu (Tom Conte) (01/24/91)
In article <38408@cup.portal.com>, jpser@cup.portal.com (John Paul Serafin) writes: > akcs.falco@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Andrey Dolgachev) writes: > >... Jake > >Schwartz makes a good point when he talks about a Hypercard-like keyboard > > >with keys that can be whatever shape and location we wish. I think that > > > .... > > > ----Falco > ... > I've always thought it would be nice if keycaps were displays. The small > size would allow much better contrast for LCD's, there would be a menu > selection for every key, and the entire main display would be available > for other uses. ALL key labeling could be done this way, allowing more > or larger keys, since the space between them wouldn't be needed for > labels. The displays could change whenever a shift key is pressed. > Alternatively, the label area above each key could be a display. This > would take care of the finger print problem, perhaps at the cost of reducing > the density of keys. I suspect this idea has come up before, but I can't > ^^^^^^^ > recall a reference. > John Serafin > jpser@cup.portal.com Ok. I'll bite: from my comments on the (then) new 48SX in March, 90... > Article 1626 of comp.sys.handhelds: >Path: umd5!haven!aplcen!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!crest.csg.uiuc.edu!conte >From: conte@crest.csg.uiuc.edu (Tom Conte) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.handhelds >Subject: 48SX ergonomics and stray comments >Keywords: 48SX, hp >Message-ID: <1990Mar16.194217.21647@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> >Date: 16 Mar 90 19:42:17 GMT >Sender: usenet@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News) >Reply-To: conte@crest.csg.uiuc.edu (Tom Conte) >Organization: CRHC, University of Illinois >Lines: 116 > > ... Some day maybe we'll see a > redefinable keyboard with LCD legends that change above the keys as > the modes change. If anyone ever does this, most of the problems I > mentioned above would disappear. The engineering of such a machine > is probably a little tricky... ;-) [ Not to toot me own horn or nothing.] Heck, maybe HP will see this as a public outcry for such a machine and build it. ------ Tom Conte Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing conte@uiuc.edu University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, Illinois I worry about insects: I bet the dinosaurs had `mammal exterminators'
Jake-S@cup.portal.com (Jake G Schwartz) (01/25/91)
Hi - John Serafin suggests keycaps with displays. Guess who has the patent on such an idea? (I'm pretty sure about this one). Right. Hewlett-Packard. (Anyone really in the know on this one, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I had heard about this patent back in the late Seventies.) Also with regard to the HP48 being too small for a touchscreen, and the suggestion of adding a peripheral touch pad, or some such device.....I had suggested something like this back in 1989 in June in Chicago - but with a twist. (We'll see how many folks choke on this idea:) Go back to the HP28-style hinged case and put an HP48 in the right side (with its 8-line screen) and make the whole other side a full-sized touchscreen display. When it's not being used, simply fold it underneath.( I can hear the clamshell-haters yelling now <grin>) Jake Schwartz
frank@grep.co.uk (Frank Wales) (01/25/91)
In article <1991Jan24.052410.7061@roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu> conte@crest.crhc.uiuc.edu (Tom Conte) writes: > ... Some day maybe we'll see a > redefinable keyboard with LCD legends that change above the keys as > the modes change. If anyone ever does this, most of the problems I > mentioned above would disappear. The engineering of such a machine > is probably a little tricky... ;-) A simple version of this kind of thing was done a couple of years back by TI (I don't recall the exact machine identifier). It was a vertical folding machine whose right keyboard had a large thumb-operated mode switch which mechanically changed the legends written above all the keys on that half of the machine (switching from stat mode to scientific, I think). Of course, it wasn't as flexible as zillions of little displays might be, but I suppose it could be regarded as a simple trial of the basic idea. -- Frank Wales, Grep Limited, [frank@grep.co.uk<->uunet!grep!frank] Kirkfields Business Centre, Kirk Lane, LEEDS, UK, LS19 7LX. (+44) 532 500303
akcs.dnickel@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Derek S. Nickel) (01/26/91)
Jake,
Wow, would that make for a REAL thick calculator (clamshell with
display)? Even the plug in cards would make it thick. Remember that
both left and right sides would need to be the same thickness.
Derek S. Nickel