bgribble@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Bill Gribble) (01/26/91)
In article <27a114e2:1810comp.sys.handhelds@hpcvbbs.UUCP> akcs.gandalf@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Rakkiat Trimahaloek) writes: > Sometimes ago somebody posting message about downloading >library from EQ LIB card to RAM and backup it to pc and said that >it may not be worth to know how to do it because buying a RAM card >to keep the "stolen" library is expensive than the EQ LIB itself. Just thinkin': this idea presents some interesting philosophical questions. If there's an easy way to copy ROM cards, I don't know of it; but I'm sure somebody out there does. The question is whether this information should be widely disseminated. If it becomes public knowledge that any ROM card for the '48 could be copied and, say, stored to disk, I think the effect on developers would be even more drastic than it is in the "real" computer industry. The market for '48 software is pretty small; the effects of piracy even on a small scale would be an economic factor developers couldn't ignore. I would say that the inconvenience of waiting half a second at powerup is negligibly small, and if it's too large take the card out. I don't think that even if anyone knows how to copy it to a ram card that knowledge should be made public. I, for one, would be interested to see how it worked, but I don't think I could trust myself. >Rakkiat ***************************************************************************** ** Bill Gribble Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA ** ** bgribble@jarthur.claremont.edu Never heard of it? You're stupid. ** *****************************************************************************
TNAN0@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (01/28/91)
Since RAM is modifiable and ROM is not, I do not think it would be difficult to 'copy protect' ROM cards. All the creator would have to do is add code that tries to modify memory (to be executed in the future) so that it will jump back out of the library instead of continuing execution. In RAM, this would render the program useless, but in ROM, the modification would fail and the library would work fine... Of course, we HP users are such freaks about figuring things out that we'd probably start an entire new mail-server devoted to cracking these copy- protection schemes... But nevertheless, I doubt it'll catch on... Did you know that there was a device for the old Atari 2600 that was plugged in between the base unit and the cartridge and would copy the contents of the ROM cartridge into it's own RAM (EEPROM?) and thus allow you to copy Atari games...? Of course, you could only copy one at a time and the copier was 5X the cost of the game... But it allowed many 'users' to share the same software... Sorry for the history, but it sorta reminds me of our story. A blank memory card is $200+ dollars (at most stores) while the ROM cards are usually $100 (although some are 1/2K WHEW!). My advice to the HP public is: Do NOT copy software if you want producers to generate more... My nightmare is that HP will perceive a piracy risk with the 48SX and will begin to devise anti-access circuitry for future calculators. This would be quite a blow to the calculator-hackers and many vendors may feel that the 'new-calculator's market would be more secure... Oh well... Perhaps it's paranoia. I find the most useful part of the 48sx's ROM card's is their small size and easy installation. I would much prefer to have 4 or 5 ROM cards with me in the field than a laptop with a hard drive (to keep the copied ROMs on). ---Xeno Gary Snethen
TNA32@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (FRINGE) (01/28/91)
the EQ library alone (yeah, just the eq's) still dowsn't fit on a ram card.
The dealay is because of the way the 48 initializes the card when it turns on.
there is an EE library you can get from educalc, $85 if i remember. oodles
of EE equations and the multiple eq solver.
-fRiNgErob@ireta.cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Rob Prior) (01/28/91)
cain@hpfcdj.HP.COM (Gary Cain) writes: > In article / bgribble@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Bill Gribble) / > > Please do not tell me that : (copying, backups, modifying) == piracy No, but copying, backing up, modifying, recompiling, giving to a friend, etc... That _does_ constitute piracy. It should be up to the user to find out how to break into the ROM cards on their own. Let's not make it any easier for the casual user to pirate the software than it already is... :) Rob
akcs.dnickel@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Derek S. Nickel) (01/29/91)
Rakkiat,
When I mentioned that a RAM card to hold the contents of a ROM card would
cost more, I think I also declined to explain how someone would download
a ROM card to the PC (or even to another '48). I think Bill's reply says
it well enough.
As for the "delay bug". That is not a bug (I've never seen it refered to
as a bug). When the '48 is turned on, it checksums all of its memory.
If you have a card or two in your '48, this can take awhile. It does not
matter that the card is a RAM or ROM card.
Derek S. Nickelakcs.davemarsh@hpcvbbs.UUCP (DAVID J. MARSH) (01/29/91)
as for transferring ROM card library objects to RAM, there are several ways to do it- one of them would be to use my shareware program to do it for you... I would post it here, but last time I did it, HP got on my case... there is anyone whants it, you may call and get it directly from from me. My number is (714)568-5315 (voice, evenings 5:30 to 9:30 Pac std time.) Dave Marsh
cain@hpfcdj.HP.COM (Gary Cain) (01/30/91)
In article / bgribble@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Bill Gribble) / >Just thinkin': this idea presents some interesting philosophical > questions. If there's an easy way to copy ROM cards, I don't know > of it; but I'm sure somebody out there does. The question is > whether this information should be widely disseminated. If it > becomes public knowledge that any ROM card for the '48 could be > copied and, say, stored to disk, I think the effect on developers > would be even more drastic than it is in the "real" computer > industry. The market for '48 software is pretty small; the effects > of piracy even on a small scale would be an economic factor > developers couldn't ignore. How about letting the user pick & choose what function that he/she would like to have resident in the HP48 at the same time ? Or the possiblity of modifying the program to meet thier needs. If you are worried about piracy, people would realize that a RAM module costs more the the purchase of the ROM program. Also by just copying the ROM you still need the manual. Please do not tell me that : (copying, backups, modifying) == piracy Not all users have evil intentions.
sburke@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Scott Burke) (01/30/91)
I have a few thoughts on this beginning thread on ROM copying. In fact,
being a commercial developer with Sparcom, I have thought about it a _lot_.
1. You don't need to back up ROM cards. Ever. Therefore code that is
designed to extract a library object from a ROM card is not excusable
as a backup device.
2. Earlier, someone posted and asked for that code because they only wanted
_part_ of the EQLIB card, but not all of it. That, I believe, would be
piracy. Unless of course they own the card, in which case they should
just plug the darn thing in. They complained about the startup-time;
well, checksums are checksums, and if they put it in a RAM card the time
delay will be identical (for a 128K RAM card, that is).
3. For serious users, the 48SX really is a one-slot machine, because they
must always have a merged 128K or 32K RAM card in one of the ports. This
means that only one commercial ROM card can be used at a time, and that
access to only one set of libraries is provided.
4. If libraries are distributed (i.e., sold) as code objects like Donnelly's
Toolkit, which comes on a disk, then they can be downloaded to the 48.
But this eats memory--does anybody out there actually use all his code in
a 32K machine? No, of course not. If you have a 32K machine, you down-
load what you need when you need it. But Donnelly's libraries can be
pirated because of this.
5. I have yet to think of a case where the user will need to access library
objects from more than one ROM card at the same time. In the future, it
may be possible that the code in commercial ROMs becomes so integrated
that multiple ROM cards must be present at the same time. But get real;
this hasn't happened yet and currently isn't on the horizon.
6. If Joe owns two ROM cards, he can pull one out and plug the other one in.
This is simple. There is no need to complain about the 3 seconds taken
to do this if Joe wants to access two different ROM cards, he doesn't
need to extract one of the libraries and put it in RAM.
7. HP's EQLIB card is misleading because it contains 8 libraries. Sparcom's
cards contain, typically, one large 128K library. (More or less.) There
is no way any user is going to want to copy that into RAM, because they'd
pay way more than the $99 list price for the ROM card (again, more or
less on the price) for a large enough RAM card.
I really can't come up with a reason other than piracy for the ROM-extraction
code. I respect the author's desire to break an encryption scheme, and I
believe it is perfectly ok to post the fact that it has been broken. BUT I
must point out (as HP pointed out the author) that posting such code is not
responsible, as there is no need for it. As a commercial developer whose
income depends on the sale of ROMs, I can say that the last thing I want is
to start a copy-protection war with the user, as has happened so many times
in the past and continues to occur on nearly all computers today. Sure,
Sparcom could include software copy protection. We could include hardware
copy protection. But spending time on such financial protection merely cuts
into the time spent developing intriguing new products for the 48sx.
Just my $.02.
Scott.
sburke@jarthur.claremont.edu
The opinions I express in no way speak for Sparcom, and anything I say is not
meant to be Sparcom's final word on the matter. I speak merely from personal
opinion, and the fact that I am a commercial developer influences that opinion
but does not legally bind the company for which I work.sburke@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Scott Burke) (01/30/91)
Oops, one thing I forgot to say:
8. My goal in writing software for the 48 (and hopefully the goal of _all_
programmers _everywhere_!) is to write such intuitive code that manuals
are simply useful reading to catch a few of the sneaky, extra-powerful
functionalities of the software that aren't necessary to the normal user
but that the power user might want to check out. Therefore, like the
Macintosh, piracy is _not_ prevented by the fact that the pirate has no
manual, because the programs are easy enough to figure out anyways, if
a person is moderately intelligent. That is, I hope ;-) my code is that
intuitive...
Scott.jsims@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (J. Robert Sims) (01/31/91)
Scott Burke lists several reasons why information about copying ROM cards should be restricted, including: >3. For serious users, the 48SX really is a one-slot machine, because they > must always have a merged 128K or 32K RAM card in one of the ports. This > means that only one commercial ROM card can be used at a time, and that > access to only one set of libraries is provided. > Scott Burke's point number 3 is an example of why you would want to copy ROM libraries. With the extra RAM card, you have only one free slot. If you could copy individual libraries from a card, you could copy just the libraries you wanted to RAM and have exactly the functionality you wanted. For example, I could put HP's EQ library (equations and MES only) into RAM, still have a lot of extra RAM left over, and have my second slot free for a card such as Sparcom's EE card. I wouldn't have the full functionality of the HP card, but I would have the extra RAM and the part of the card I wanted. It's true that wanting to copy ROM cards for backup purposes is ridiculous, but having the option of breaking up the card for integration purposes is quite useful. The PC community has almost totally left copy protection behind; the only protection they use is the need for manuals. Rob jsims@vuse.vanderbilt.edu
frank@grep.co.uk (Frank Wales) (02/01/91)
In article <10566@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> sburke@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Scott Burke) writes: >I have a few thoughts on this beginning thread on ROM copying. > >4. If libraries are distributed (i.e., sold) as code objects like Donnelly's > Toolkit, which comes on a disk, then they can be downloaded to the 48. > But this eats memory--does anybody out there actually use all his code in > a 32K machine? No, of course not. If you have a 32K machine, you down- > load what you need when you need it. But Donnelly's libraries can be > pirated because of this. Whether a library exists in RAM or ROM doesn't change the amount of memory the library itself consumes (modulo any housekeeping data and exploitable features of one versus the other), but it does affect the amount of memory the User has left over for other things, since the User has a choice of what to do with the remaining RAM, but not with the remaining ROM. Thus, having the choice of which parts of Jim's Toolkit I can have in RAM makes it no less flexible than if it were ROM-based, plus I get the choice of what I do with the remaining memory. To me, this is a win, since I never have enough RAM. The Equation Library is a good example of something which has several uses, but in an all-or-nothing package. I can easily imagine that some people would like to have only the periodic table, say, in their machine, and would rather not sacrifice the remainder of the port for the facility. >6. If Joe owns two ROM cards, he can pull one out and plug the other one in. > This is simple. It also results in a system halt, so transient state information is lost, including the stack. This is inconvenient. In general, hardware reconfiguration is a poor solution if an alternative is available. > There is no need to complain about the 3 seconds taken > to do this if Joe wants to access two different ROM cards, he doesn't > need to extract one of the libraries and put it in RAM. If Users don't like it, you ignore their complaints at your commercial peril. >7. HP's EQLIB card is misleading because it contains 8 libraries. Sparcom's > cards contain, typically, one large 128K library. (More or less.) It is not misleading. It is a more general-purpose card than many currently available, and so is more likely to be in the hands of people who only wish to exploit a part of its functionality. That Sparcom's cards are like extended versions of particular parts of the Equation Library card only serves to confirm that point. I would hope that copying of ROM-based applications into RAM will become like breaking privacy on the HP-41; most knowledgeable Users know it can be done, some have the tools to do it, but few actually bother to to so. -- Frank Wales, Grep Limited, [frank@grep.co.uk<->uunet!grep!frank] Kirkfields Business Centre, Kirk Lane, LEEDS, UK, LS19 7LX. (+44) 532 500303
90731919@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU (Darren Freimuth) (02/02/91)
>I have a few thoughts on this beginning thread on ROM copying. In fact, >being a commercial developer with Sparcom, I have thought about it a _lot_. > > [ text deleted ] > >6. If Joe owns two ROM cards, he can pull one out and plug the other one in. > This is simple. There is no need to complain about the 3 seconds taken > to do this if Joe wants to access two different ROM cards, he doesn't > need to extract one of the libraries and put it in RAM. > > [ text deleted ] > >Scott. Sure it only takes a few seconds to change cards but there are also dangers with changing the card, aren't there? Like accidentally turning the calculator on when removing the card or inserting the card. And what does the increased insertion and removal of cards do to the internal contacts of the calculator. Has HP released any info on contact wear?? Just a few of my concerns. ---------- Darren Freimuth Bitnet: <90731919@WSUVM1> Internet: <90731919%wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu> Acknowledge-To: <90731919@WSUVM1>