TNAN0@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (01/31/91)
I called HP today and asked them about upgrading to a version E (I have a version D). It works like this: You cannot get an E the same way that A, B, and C owners can. They can get one even if their warranty is up. However, ANY version D owner (no exceptions based on serial numbers) CAN get a version E if: 1) The calculator is still under manufacturer's warranty 2) You plead that the anomolies it has interfere with your uses for it So, any version D owners who wish to get an E, simply mail your calculator to the HP service center at: Corvallis Service Center 1030 NE Circle Blvd. Corvallis, OR 97330 USA With a note stating why you want an E and letting them know that it has been cleared by service support. You must also include a copy of proof-of-purchase. They told me the service center turn-around was 3-5 days after receipt... Good luck, all...! ---Xeno I DO NOT WORK FOR HP AND I ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THEIR ACTIONS. MY INFORMATION COMES FROM A CONVERSATION WITH A SERVICE CENTER REPRESENTATIVE.
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (02/01/91)
'Scuse me, but how many of you have REALLY gotten bitten by a 48SX bug??? I don't mean "how many of you have accidentally found one" -- I mean, how many of you have *UN*intentionally run across a bug that really screwed up your work and caused you to throw up your hands in frustration and swear at the calculator? How many of you have lost points on an exam or homework, or points with your boss, or excessive amounts of time, because of a bug? Before you all rush down to UPS and send your 48's back to HP, sit down and think for a while. First, how many commercial 256Kbyte programs do you know that are totally bug-free? There must be at least one, but I don't know what it is. Give HP a little credit for the things that they did right. Second, *HOW CAN YOU BE SURE THAT THE REV. E ROMS AREN'T ALSO BUGGY?* I'll bet you a box of donuts that there are bugs in Rev. E that just haven't been uncovered yet. It's only a matter of time until they're found, and then are you going to send in your 48's to get them upgraded to Rev. F??? Third, how many of those bugs can you REALLY not live with? If the matrix- inversion bug kills you every time, and the workaround isn't satisfactory for your particular application, then you have a legitimate reason to upgrade. But if you will never invert a matrix larger than 8 x 8 in your whole life, WHY BOTHER UPGRADING? Fourth, with all the things you have to learn about the 48, what's wrong with learning the workarounds for the bugs that bite you most often? Write them in the book, for Pete's sake. (Hi Pete!) Good grief, take a black pen and turn to page 648 of the Owner's Manual and write "System Flag -40 must be cleared when doing ARCHIVE"! You won't get in trouble -- unless you're borrowing someone else's book. :-) I do a lot of graphics work, and there are a couple of bugs that I have to avoid every time I write a program, but that doesn't bother me any more than having to remember the syntax for the command-line version of "SUM". Finally, consider this: If you're developing commercial software, you'll want to make sure it can run on ALL versions of the 48, A thru Z.02.03. It does you NO GOOD to write a program on your Rev. E machine and market it, just to find out that the guy in Schenectady with a Rev. A machine can't run your program and wants his money back. If you're planning on making some bucks off this machine, don't trade in your Rev. A too fast. Use some common sense before you jump on the bandwagon and bombard Corvallis with used calculators. Don't upgrade if you don't need to. Do yourself and Corvallis a big favor. Regards Ray Depew HP ICBD -- IC's by Bill and Dave (not affilitated with the 48 gang in any way) rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com Contented user of a Rev. A HP48SX
zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman) (02/01/91)
In article <7360060@hpfcso.HP.COM> rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) writes: >'Scuse me, but how many of you have REALLY gotten bitten by a 48SX bug??? > >Use some common sense before you jump on the bandwagon and bombard Corvallis >with used calculators. Don't upgrade if you don't need to. Do yourself and >Corvallis a big favor. >Regards >Ray Depew >Contented user of a Rev. A HP48SX Well, just to start a huge flame war, I would like to disagree with you on this one, I think that people should send their early ROM versions back, with the exception of the people with the REV D's bought during the free EQLIB promo. I make this exception because many people made a choice, should I get a Rev D and a free EQLIB, or wait for a Rev E. (Of course, as I write this, I also realize that anyone without net access wouldn't know about this, but then again, they probably don't know about the upgrade either.) 1. Some people that bought Rev A. got errata sheets that told what the bugs were for Roms A-D. That seems to tell me that HP was selling products that they knew were defective for the same price as the latest REV. 2. Most of the bugs are in some of the more complicated functions, that I will admit are not used that often. But hey, I didn't pay $300 for a 4 function calculator, I bought it so I can use those features. 3. Yes, I do know that huge programs have bugs. But, I have gotten free upgrades from Borland and Microsoft for early versions that have bugs. (That is why I do business with those companies.) In addition, I sometimes write code to make extra money. I have a policy that if a bug is found, I fix it for free. (I do charge for extra features.) 4. In the case of the Rev D's, it appears that the free upgrade is only avail while the calc is under warrantee. Seems to me that this is a good time to upgrade. 5. Even if you don't use the advanced features that have the bugs, get an upgrade. How easy is it going to be sell a Rev A on the second hand market? 6. Using the argument of the previous poster, upgrade now to make sure that you WILL be able to run the software developed by other people who write it for the latest REV. (Of course, if you are happy with a REV A, MS-DOS 1.1, WordPerfect 3.0, whatever, continue to use it.) 7. I would have a different opinion about this if HP was above board about this, but I don't think that they have been. How many people got mail from HP about the upgrade? I know that I didn't. In fact, I had to justify why I wanted to upgrade when I called. I will be honest, I am not a happy owner of a REV B hp48sx. I disagree with HP's method of upgrades, their EQLIB promo, the way the serial cable was sold (ie charge extra for software you give away for free in 1 month) and for the false advertising of the serial cable. (Access the power of you HP48sx from you computer. What a crock! Ever try to use EQWriter from your computer? Actually, ever tried to do anything from your computer? Even if you do get around the rem host problem of kermit, after every operation, the entire stack is sent back to your computer at 9600 baud.) (Anyone ever heard of 19200 or 38400 baud?) I have heard that HP has made a nice program for the IBMPC to help in the above problem. Does it come with the programmers manual in hardcopy, or just online? BTW, what is the price for said program? I can get it for $30, but is that the price for everyone, or just for those who bought the software version of the cable? Oh, in the case of the EQLIB promo, I am not saying that HP had a moral reason to make a similar offer to early owners. I do feel that they should have offered it at either a lower price for those owners, or maybe given it away at a lower price with the purchase of a 128K ram card. It was this promo that soured me on HP. Of course, my office mate's experience with his HP28c didn't help matters. :-) BTW, unlike the previous poster, I am not an employee of HP. (If I am wrong about the previous posters employment status, I apologize in advance.) Andrew zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu PS. I am not an employee of Motorola, but I would like to say that the people at Motorola know a thing about customer service. They have always been more then helpful. (In fact, they are sometimes too helpful. send email if you want me to explain that comment.)
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (02/02/91)
From zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman): >>In article <7360060@hpfcso.HP.COM> rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) writes: >>'Scuse me, but how many of you have REALLY gotten bitten by a 48SX bug??? >> >>Use some common sense before you jump on the bandwagon and bombard Corvallis >>with used calculators. Don't upgrade if you don't need to. Do yourself and >>>Corvallis a big favor. >>Regards >>Ray Depew >>Contented user of a Rev. A HP48SX >Well, just to start a huge flame war, I would like to disagree with you on >this one,... Apologies to all for yesterday's outburst. It was the wrong day to be reading or responding to *anything* on notes. (Ever have one of those days? :-S) I should just keep quiet now, since I *really* don't want to get into a flame war. But... (put your extinguishers away, there are no flames here) >2. Most of the bugs are in some of the more complicated functions, that I >will admit are not used that often. But hey, I didn't pay $300 for a >4 function calculator, I bought it so I can use those features. Yabut if you use those functions so seldom (that was my point!), the workarounds shouldn't be such a big deal. You have to open the book to read about using the functions anyway, why not just put an annotation in the book about the related bug? >3. Yes, I do know that huge programs have bugs. But, I have gotten free >upgrades from Borland and Microsoft for early versions that have bugs. I'm not saying that HP won't upgrade your machine for free. I'm suggesting that you skip the upgrade, if the bugs aren't biting you. I've gotten offers for bug fixes from MS and other software houses too, but if the bugs were in application areas that I knew I'd never use, I ignored them. Why, pray tell, should I fix a bug in the legal-brief creation routines if I'm never going to draw up a legal brief? (discussion on illegal briefs to /dev/null) That's what I'm suggesting here. If you don't *need* the bugs fixed, but you do need your calculator, is it really worth 10 days of your time (not my number, I got it from c.s.h) to get the upgrade? Of course not! >5. Even if you don't use the advanced features that have the bugs, get an >upgrade. How easy is it going to be sell a Rev A on the second hand >market? Answer #1: WHAAAT? You *SELL* your HP calculators when they get old? Sacrilege! (and smileys) Answer #2: Ask EduCalc, or all the "HP28S for sale" posters here. >6. Using the argument of the previous poster, upgrade now to make sure that >you WILL be able to run the software developed by other people who write >it for the latest REV. (Of course, if you are happy with a REV A, MS-DOS 1.1, >WordPerfect 3.0, whatever, continue to use it.) Now you're mixing arguments. We're talking about upgrading to fix known bugs. People upgrade from WP3.0 to WP5.1 for the added features, not necessarily for the bug fixes. MS-DOS isn't a good example, since 4.X has bug fixes, added features, and MORE BUGS. >I will be honest, I am not a happy owner of a REV B hp48sx. I disagree >with HP's method of ... (Here's where I cower behind the standard disclaimer: I don't speak for HP. I really am sorry to hear that you've had trouble with your Rev.B.) > ... Ever try to use >EQWriter from your computer? You can't use the Graphics environment from your computer, either. Not even from a Mac (yet). Try to figure out why. (Answer hinted at, below) > Actually, ever tried to do anything from >your computer? Even if you do get around the rem host problem of kermit, >after every operation, the entire stack is sent back to your computer at >9600 baud.) (Anyone ever heard of 19200 or 38400 baud?) I don't see how getting the whole stack sent back to your PC is a problem. I thought HP made it do that on purpose. If it bothers you that it's sent back after every operation, try combining several operations on one line before sending it to the 48. (Equivalent to using the [ENTRY] ([Rshift] [alpha] operation from the 48's keyboard.) >I have heard that HP has made a nice program for the IBMPC to help in the >above problem. Does it come with the programmers manual in hardcopy, >or just online? BTW, what is the price for said program? I can get it >for $30, but is that the price for everyone, or just for those who bought >the software version of the cable? (Cowering behind the disclaimer again) I've seen it. It's called PDL, short for Programmer's Development Laboratory. Basically, you connect your 48 to your PC, put it in Server mode, and do all your program development on the PC. It has a very thorough online "Help" facility, and I think that tossing in the hardcopy Ref Manual would be redundant. I'm sure EduCalc has it -- dunno about price, etc. If you're worried about whether you'll like it or want it, ask for a demo somewhere. (If I say "*I* like it", I'm sure I'll get shot down again. So I won't say that.) >BTW, unlike the previous poster, I am not an employee of HP. (If I am >wrong about the previous posters employment status, I apologize in advance.) No, you're right. However, my division has nothing to do with the calculator gang (they're geniuses; we aren't -- yet). We have to stand in line behind literally everyone else in the world to get a 48, and even then, the boss is likely to ask, "Why a 48? What did you do with the 15C I bought you years ago?" My 48 doesn't even belong to HP. I earned it myself. I still maintain that you shouldn't upgrade if you don't need to. If the only thing pushing you to upgrade is your desire to own "the latest and greatest", or something that you read on c.s.h but haven't encountered in your own travels through the 48, or the feeling that you should stick it to HP before they stick it to you, then *you don't need to upgrade*. That's the point that I was not-so-tactfully trying to make before, and I apologize for the tone of my earlier posting. I just hate to see the guys in Corvallis get the treatment they've gotten of late, for all the good they've done. Regards (still) Ray HP ICBD -- IC's by Bill and Dave rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com
TNAN0@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (02/02/91)
"Use some common sense before you jump on the bandwagon and bombard Corvallis with used calculators." My sole defense for wanting an unflawed ROM is this: I want to keep the resale value of my calculator as high as possible. As a side-line, HP should have tested their ROMs more thoroughly... If they didn't even try to invert a matrix larger than 8x8, they deserve the penalty of replacing every flawed calculator. It is not OUR fault that the entire calculator must be replaced. HP, in their infinite wisdom, could have worked out a scheme where the ROMs were replacable. Software is covered by the same warranties that hardware is - it is to be free from manufacture defects... Revision Ds are flawed, and so are A, B, and Cs... If I bought a car and the 2nd gear position on my automatic transmission control didn't work, I'd sure have it fixed even if I didn't use it! Anyway, I believe that companies (especially in America) are getting far to relaxed about quality control. HP should strive for ZERO DEFECTS and that means rigorous testing of the software they put into their calculators. ---Xeno P.S. Speaking of defects, "to" six lines up should be "too." ;-)
TNAN0@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (02/04/91)
Chris Spell, I personally called HP (at 503-757-2002) and they transferred me to Technical Support. Customer service at HP is null and void. NEVER listen to what they say--they are misinformed. They did not even know there was more than one ROM version until recently... I was told that D to E was covered under warranty... If they try to convince you this is a rumor... tell them to call ME at 515-294-5419 and I will personally tell them of my conversation with Technical Support. -Xeno-
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) (02/05/91)
Good to see this notestring is still alive and kicking... >>"Use some common sense before you jump on the bandwagon and bombard >>Corvallis with used calculators." >My sole defense for wanting an unflawed ROM is this: >I want to keep the resale value of my calculator as high as possible. What I told zimmer@calvin.stanford.edu (Andrew Zimmerman): >>5. Even if you don't use the advanced features that have the bugs, get an >>upgrade. How easy is it going to be sell a Rev A on the second hand >>market? >Answer #1: WHAAAT? You *SELL* your HP calculators when they get old? Sacrilege! (and smileys) >Answer #2: Ask EduCalc, or all the "HP28S for sale" posters here. Back to more serious matters: >As a side-line, HP should have tested their ROMs more thoroughly... If they ^^^^^^ ^^^^ >didn't even try to invert a matrix larger than 8x8, they deserve the penalty >of replacing every flawed calculator. Well, they did a pretty thorough job, from what I saw. Obviously, you don't know HP. Their reputation for high quality is well-deserved, but even HP can't be perfect all the time. If you knew how much testing actually did go into the 48, you probably wouldn't have said this. Like I said in an earlier posting, even Rev.F will probably have bugs. (No, I don't know what they will be. I'm speaking from a statistical point of view.) The question is, will you ever notice them? >It is not OUR fault that the entire >calculator must be replaced. ^^^^ I don't understand the relevance of the "It's not OUR fault..." line. I'm not arguing that HP should refuse to continue their current upgrade policy. I challenge you to find that point of view anywhere in my posting. I'm arguing that users shouldn't send their 48s in for revision just because there's a later ROM out there. "MUST be replaced" ain't necessarily so, especially at this point in time, when the remaining bugs are in esoteric operations that you have to reread the manual to use, anyway. >... If I bought >a car and the 2nd gear position on my automatic transmission control didn't >work, I'd sure have it fixed even if I didn't use it! I've got a problem with this analogy, and I'm not sure what it is. I think that most of the bugs we're talking about are more on the line of defective trunk lid lights or loose ashtrays. The only one I can think of that's as universally important as whether you can put your auto tranny in 2nd on purpose would be the ARCHIVE-with-clock bug. And even then,... >Anyway, I believe that companies (especially in America) are getting far to >relaxed about quality control. HP should strive for ZERO DEFECTS and that >means rigorous testing of the software they put into their calculators. $CAUSTIC MODE ON$ You obviously don't know much about HP, except that they make calculators with bugs in them. Maybe somebody else on the net would like to fill you in on HP, quality control and "rigorous testing." $CAUSTIC MODE OFF$ Regards Ray Depew IC's by Bill and Dave rrd@hpfitst1.hp.com DISCLAIMER: Hey, I'm taking a late lunch. Besides, nobody at HP talks this way. This whole posting is a figment of your imagination. ADDENDUM: Spelling errors are forgiven. It's all vi's fault, anyway. PERSONAL TO ZIMMER: Hey, is "Mixed Company" still performing on campus?
akcs.dnickel@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Derek S. Nickel) (02/06/91)
concidering the course that this thread has taken, I'd be suprised if HP
even told us about future bugs (let alone offer an upgrade path). I
wouldn't be happy, but I also wouldn't be suprised (and I wouldn't blame
them for keeping quite).
dsnmike@DRD.Com (Mike Rovak) (02/06/91)
rrd@hpfcso.HP.COM (Ray Depew) wrote: ... stuff ... } >As a side-line, HP should have tested their ROMs more thoroughly... If they } ^^^^^^ ^^^^ } >didn't even try to invert a matrix larger than 8x8, they deserve the penalty } >of replacing every flawed calculator. } } Well, they did a pretty thorough job, from what I saw. Obviously, you don't } know HP. Their reputation for high quality is well-deserved, but even HP } can't be perfect all the time. If you knew how much testing actually did go } into the 48, you probably wouldn't have said this. Like I said in an earlier } posting, even Rev.F will probably have bugs. (No, I don't know what they will } be. I'm speaking from a statistical point of view.) The question is, will you } ever notice them? } } >It is not OUR fault that the entire } >calculator must be replaced. }^^^^ ... stuff ... } } >Anyway, I believe that companies (especially in America) are getting far to } >relaxed about quality control. HP should strive for ZERO DEFECTS and that } >means rigorous testing of the software they put into their calculators. } ... stuff ... Don't mean to nit-pick, but of course you realize that a product which is tested for ZERO DEFECTS never gets to market... The point is that at least in my experience there is always a tradeoff between the amount of time which is devoted to testing and the need to bring the product to competitive and open market. This is a consideration which must always be weighed by the people who have the responsibility for keeping the business in question afloat. It seems to me that as the machine becomes more complex in its capabilities, there will be increased pressure on HP to do something like make the ROMS more accessible for upgrading, either for the experienced user or at least the experienced dealer. In such a case, HP could then charge a nominal fee for an upgrade and would not then have to absorb the (what I am sure is) considerable expense of eating the returned units like what has occurred this year. The result of this type of plan is that the advanced users will remain happy, and inevitable bugs which surface do not become anywhere near the liability which they have been this year for HP. Instead, they have the potential of becoming an asset, so long that "selling upgrades" does not become a marketing end in itself, which is an irritable feeling I get from some software companies, who shall remain nameless. I consider myself fortunate. I discovered this newsgroup just as I was making the decision to buy a 48. Having "been burned" (my own personal perception, which may have no basis in fact) on the 28C, I waited, read the news, and waited. When I heard about the EQLIB promotion and Version E, I bought. So, IMHO, any complaints should be directed to marketing, NOT the poor guys who are TOLD when the thing is to be ramrodded out the door. -- Mike's $0.02 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------ mike@DRD.Com uunet!apctrc!drd!mike ========================================================================