rob@ireta.cynic.wimsey.bc.ca (Rob Prior) (03/05/91)
alan@ukpoit.co.uk (Alan Barclay) writes: > In article <39888@cup.portal.com> jpser@cup.portal.com (John Paul Serafin) wr > > Unfortunatly there isn't even one corner when Psion users can freely > disscuss their handhelds. But don't feel that you are being asked to stop > your disscussions, just move them to a more appropriate (new) group. Now its my turn for the flamethrower... :) You can discuss your Psion in _this_ corner as long as you like to. The group name is comp.sys.handhelds, don't forget. Don't you think your Psion qualifies? I do. I also think my 48sx qualifies. So I will discuss it as long as I feel like too. Don't be an ass like the rest of the lets.split. the.group groupies. They just don't want to read 30 daily postings on the latest and greatest handheld (48sx) just to see the 1 or 2 weekly postings related to something else. If I was in your shoes, I would post someting about my Psion and shut up. If people want to discuss it, they will. But did it ever occur to you that the only handheld users that really want to discuss their units are the HP owners? Rob +------------ | rob@ireta.cynic.wimsey.bc.ca | Rob Prior, President, Still Animation Logo Design +------------------------------------------------------------
mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel MD MS) (03/06/91)
OK, I was upset this morning, and if I flamed too much, I'm sorry. Reading the group, you have no idea the amount of private mail I am getting on this, and the number of people who seem to think I am doing this because I have nothing better to do. To summarize the main issues: 1) There is a significant body of opinion that the current single group is not serving the community well. This comes largely from the non-HP community, i.e., Sharp/Casio/Psion/etc. Basically, these people are tired of having to read 50 postings a day about issues relating to the HP48. 2) The HP28 users who bother to mail to me state that they are not all that interested in the main volume of HP48 stuff either. 3) HP is poised to release a handheld that does not share the architecture of the 48, and most likely will be a completely different animal from all the other handhelds as well. Basically, it seems to me that while it is unlikely that a group named .hp48sx will be the longterm solution, if HP releases another machine in that line, and the members of the .hp48sx group feel the need to go through the process of renaming the group, that is a decision that the HP48 community can make without fear of offending anyone with any other machine. I do not feel, however, that it is wise for the HP48 community to say to the community of handheld users, "You have no choice but to read our postings if you want to read about handhelds". Since the name handhelds seems to best describe both the HP48sx and Sharp/Casio/Psion/etc., I am not sure what name could be picked to allow the non-HP48 (and 48 followon) group to be distinguished from c.s.h. If anyone has a proposal, make it, but I believe (and am supported in this belief by a fair number of mail messages) that the logical approach is to create new groups that are inclusive, rather than exclusive. As to the notion that the HP48 community benefits from the postings of the Sharp/Casio/Psion/etc., and thus everyone will have to subscribe to both, I have received several messages which indicate that non-HP48 users feel intimidated by the volume of HP48 postings, and feel that no one is interested. Indeed, I have heard reports of HP48 users harrassing those who post non-HP questions. Thus, if the split causes non-HP48 users to have more productive interchanges, then it seems that anyone from the HP48 community who cared to read c.s.h would be pleased with the results. Folks, I hope you all appreciate that my motivation for doing this is merely to be a good net citizen. It would be far easier to just sign off the newsgroup, but that would leave the problem for someone else to solve. I know a lot of you will say "What problem?", but it should be sufficient to recognize that others see it as a problem and realize it doesn't create any lasting hardship for you to participate in solving their problems. I hope I have not taken up too much bandwidth with my postings, but I keep getting mail from people who feel I am hoarding information. Thus, I ask the following questions: 1) Does anyone from the HP48 community feel they will be MATERIALLY INCONVEIENCED by the creation of comp.sys.handhelds.hp48sx? 2) Does anyone from the HP28, etc. community feel they should beincluded with the HP48 community in the proposed group? 3) Does anyone from the non-HP community feel they will be adversely affected by splitting off some or all of the HP community? I know everyone has an opinion, but these are the opinions that seem most valuable at this time. Please, post to the group, as everyone seems to have an interest in this. While I don't mind the mail, it leaves many people with an incomplete impression of the range of sentiment. Jeff E Mandel MD MS Asst Professor of Anesthesiology Tulane University School of Medicine New Orleans, LA
streeter@theory.lcs.mit.edu (Kenneth B. Streeter) (03/06/91)
In article <6478@rex.cs.tulane.edu> mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel MD MS) writes:
< basically sums up mailings he has received concerning the
"split" of comp.sys.handhelds >
The fundamental "problem" that exists in this group is the same as in
all ".misc" groups that have a somewhat wide range of specific topics
discussed in them. For comp.sys.handhelds, the specific topics can be
grouped according to machine types. Typically what happens in such a
case is that when a significant following for any specific subtopic
develops, that group of people with common interests seek to have
their own subgroup. (As an example of this, consider rec.music.*)
Comp.sys.handhelds currently has a large volume of HP48 traffic, and
much smaller discussions of a wide variety of other machines. One
would anticipate that the HP48 users would want to then create a
newsgroup to cater more specifically to their own needs. With
comp.sys.handhelds, however, something different seems to have
happened. Instead of desiring to have their own group, as normally
happens, a significant number of HP users want to remain in the
"general" handhelds group. A feeling that has been voiced is that the
HP users don't want to be made to "leave" the comp.sys.handhelds
group. This somewhat surprises me, since I would think that if there
is any such thing as "prestige" with newsgroups, it would be to have a
machine-specific newsgroup catering to your specific needs, as opposed
to being just one of the crowd in the comp.sys.handhelds group.
I feel that a split would be beneficial to both the HP-users and the
non-HP users. First, if a person is interested in both sets of
issues, and wants to read all comp.sys.handhelds postings, he can read
both groups! If a person wants to read only non-HP postings, he reads
the non-HP group, and if a person only wants to read the HP posts, he
reads the HP-only group.
I also feel that it would make a lot of sense to create a new group
that discusses not JUST the HP48, as the HP48 will inevitably be
superceded by a more powerful machine from HP at sometime in the
future. (Just as the HP41 and HP28 have...) However, the types of
users, programming languages, and typical applications for the HP48
are very much like that of the HP28 and HP41. Furthermore, these
characteristics are different from the Casio/Psion/Sharp/other
handhelds that are discussed here. I think that the best split would
be one that kept the similar machines (HP41, HP28, HP48, HP48II, etc)
together. Names for this group have included
comp.sys.handhelds.hpcalcs and comp.sys.handhelds.hp2848. I feel that
comp.sys.handhelds.hpcalcs most accurately describes this group of
machines, and permits for future machines in the HP41-28-48 line.
I think the creation of a new newsgroup to discuss the HP41-28-48 line of
handhelds would be a good idea, regardless of the name.
Comp.sys.handhelds.hpcalcs seems to be a good name for such a group.
Since I have an interest in both the HP and non-HP handhelds, I will
probably end up reading both groups, but I understand the advantages
of having two groups that many non-HP users have already mentioned,
and feel that both communities of users will benefit from the split.
--
Kenneth B. Streeter | ARPA: streeter@im.lcs.mit.edu
MIT LCS, Room NE43-350 | UUCP: ...!uunet!im.lcs.mit.edu!streeter
545 Technology Square | (617) 253-2614 (work)
Cambridge, MA 02139 | (617) 225-2249 (home) blgardne@javelin.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (03/06/91)
In order to make the split somewhat logical, why not follow along the lines of the comp.sys.ibm, mac & amiga splits? The main group ceases to exist as such, but becomes a node for the sub-groups. Perhaps something like: comp.sys.handhelds.hp " " " .casio " " " .sharp " " " .psion " " " .whatever (as deemed necessary) " " " .misc (for machines that fit none of the above) And if a certian brand needs futher subdivision, handle it as a sub-group, as in: comp.sys.handhelds.hp.48 " " " .sharp.wizard Comp.sys.handhelds as a postable newsgroup would cease to exist, and traffic from it (non-machine specific) would migrate to c.s.hh.misc. The general plan seems to have worked well for the Amiga, IBM and Mac groups. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com or ...dsd.es.com!javelin!blgardne DoD #0046 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. BIX: blaine_g Anticipation, anticipation, is making me late, is keeping me waiting.
frechett@spot.Colorado.EDU (-=Runaway Daemon=-) (03/06/91)
I have a few thoughts.. I initially didn't want to split but I have thought
about it a bit. If it will get rid of all the people calling for a split, then
lets do it. For the last few weeks there has obviously been ALOT of
discussion/flames/nonsense regarding the proposed split.
It seems that the problem is that the non-hp48 people can't stand our volume
and thus want to kick us out into our own group, but I see the same problem
that was brought up before, in that the hp48 owners won't always be the
majority of the posts. If we made a new group for every new HP calc, we could
have a fair percentage of the groups in comp.sys.*. This obviously doesn't
work as a long term solution.
So, I propose this in a perfectly serious light. If there is going to be a
split due to the high volume then let the name reflect that or something
similar. For lack of something better, make it
comp.sys.handhelds.highvolume
comp.sys.handhelds.latest
I know those names are a bit odd but to me comp.sys.handhelds.hp48sx is just as
strange. I like to read the posts about other handhelds too. I have a few
of them myself. I am not afraid of high volume news groups. If there is some
topic that I find is taking up too much space, then I Junk it. I promise that
I won't complain when the hp68sx comes, and blows away the 48. (Of course I
will own one too ;)
If, if the only way to resolve this mess is to split off this group then let
the name of the new group reflect why it has split. Don't make excuses.
ian
-=Runaway Daemon=-jpser@cup.portal.com (John Paul Serafin) (03/06/91)
Jeff E Mandel MD MS writes: ... >To summarize the main issues: > >1) There is a significant body of opinion that the current single group is not > >serving the community well. This comes largely from the non-HP community, i.e. , >Sharp/Casio/Psion/etc. Basically, these people are tired of having to read 50 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >postings a day about issues relating to the HP48. > ... Since none of the above even come close to being computers (as opposed to having computers in them), perhaps their users should figure out what they are and start a group in some other heirarcy. Atari Portfolios and Poquets are closer to laptops than handhelds. It is somewhat ironic that HP products are practically ignored by media in general and in the one corner where HP users can freely discuss their handhelds they are being asked to leave. John Serafin | Operating a bicycle is more like driving than riding; jpser@cup.portal.com | operating an automobile is more like riding than driving
bdahlen@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Robert L. Dahlen - U. of Denver USA=) (03/07/91)
In article <6478@rex.cs.tulane.edu> mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel MD MS) writes: >3) Does anyone from the non-HP community feel they will be adversely affected >by splitting off some or all of the HP community? No way! Split the group. Please! The only relevent point seems to be what to call a new group so that when HP comes out with a new pocket calculator, that group can take the new traffic. It appears to be an HP crowd, so name it so it can accomadate new hp calculators. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert L. Dahlen - Director, Information Systems & Technology University of Denver - Denver, Colorado 80208 (303) 871-4385 INTERNET:bdahlen@du.edu BITNET:bdahlen@ducair
TDSTRONG%MTUS5.BITNET@VM1.NoDak.EDU (Tim Strong) (03/07/91)
>1) Does anyone from the HP48 community feel they will be MATERIALLY >INCONVEIENCED by the creation of comp.sys.handhelds.hp48sx? >2) Does anyone from the HP28, etc. community feel they should beincluded with >the HP48 community in the proposed group? >3) Does anyone from the non-HP community feel they will be adversely affected >by splitting off some or all of the HP community? In answer to 1. I am signed on through handhelds@gac.edu which is a two way link to the main handhelds list. I have tried to get on the main list before with dissapointing results until I finally found this pathway. Now I have no problem with a new list if I can be assured of finding a pathway to the thing. If I get knocked of I will be one unhappy individual. I understand the non-hp users complaints at having to read over 50+ files on hardware they don't own. I hope they find the new list w/o hp (if it happens) benificial if realitively barren. Also if the list does split make sure to post the message with a very clear subject line. I DON'T read all the articles just the ones with subjects of interest. ====================================================================== ___ I__) _ _I _ _ TIM STRONG <TDSTRONG%MTUS5.BITNET@CUNYVM.EDU> I \ (_I (_I (_I I MICHIGAN TECH. HOUGHTON, MICHIGAN ======================================================================
alan@ukpoit.co.uk (Alan Barclay) (03/08/91)
In article <39888@cup.portal.com> jpser@cup.portal.com (John Paul Serafin) writes: >Jeff E Mandel MD MS writes: >... >>Sharp/Casio/Psion/etc. Basically, these people are tired of having to read 50 > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >... >Since none of the above even come close to being computers (as opposed to >having computers in them), perhaps their users should figure out what >they are and start a group in some other heirarcy. >Atari Portfolios and Poquets are closer to laptops than handhelds. >It is somewhat ironic that HP products are practically ignored by media >in general and in the one corner where HP users can freely discuss their >handhelds they are being asked to leave. I have a Psion and after reading this I am very tempted to get the flame thrower out. What do you mean none of the above come close to being computers? My Psion has a programming language, a file system, a range of peripherals(sp?) and even a version of tetris. What more can a computer have? Unfortunatly there isn't even one corner when Psion users can freely disscuss their handhelds. But don't feel that you are being asked to stop your disscussions, just move them to a more appropriate (new) group. I will be voting for the split..
heilpern@uu.psi.com (Mark Heilpern) (03/08/91)
Return Addresses:heilpern@ironics.com uunet!uupsi!ironics!heilpern -------- To: uupsi!gacvx2.gac.edu!NEWSMGR Subject: Re: CFD Stuff Date: Fri, 8 Mar 91 9:52:40 EST >From: Mark A. Heilpern <heilpern@ironics> In-Reply-To: <3D8F49E52000176D@gacvx2.gac.edu>; from "gacvx2.gac.edu!NEWSMGR" at Mar 7, 91 7:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL0] > In answer to 1. I am signed on through handhelds@gac.edu which is a two way > link to the main handhelds list. I have tried to get on the main list before > with dissapointing results until I finally found this pathway. Now I have > no problem with a new list if I can be assured of finding a pathway to the > thing. If I get knocked of I will be one unhappy individual. I too am only able to read this group due to the list mailer at gac.edu. I am very glad this service exists, and I have received very much valuable information on the '48 here. If this group splits, I have a good chance of loosing this privilage. Sure, the managers of this service can move their list to the new '48 group if they decide, but I do not have the right to EXPECT them to do this. Also, lets assume that the postings on the '48 will eventually dwindle. Fine, you say, we can change the name of the group, right? How often do you suppose dan@gac.edu wants to do this change-over? I'm sure he wasn't hired to handle a news group. > thing. If I get knocked of I will be one unhappy individual. Me three. As long as _someone_ is willing to mail me every handheld article I _may_ have an interest in, as well as post for me, then you can do whatever you want with my blessings. But, I don't expect any takers on this offer. Mark A. Heilpern Ohh yeah, flame >/dev/null